Tom Brady is the GOAT

Capdanjou

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So Mahomes probably won't sit out next week, at least not per league rules? If he's not on his game the Bills could definitely win that game.
 

drubendall

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Zero chance huh? What an odd statement.

I would like to see Brady vs Mahomes, but I guess I’m not part of “everyone.”
No offense intended. I don't like Brady's chances on a frozen Lambeau turf. I don't think he'll scramble out of harm's way well enough or deliver strikes when it matters, especially later in the game. I think Rodgers will be loaded for bear and they will be able to put up some points. I just don't think Tampa wants to get into a shootout with them. I could be wrong if Tampa is able to slow the game down and really burn up clock. Green Bay seems especially motivated right now and playing at a high level.
 

litespeedhuskerfan

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So Mahomes probably won't sit out next week, at least not per league rules? If he's not on his game the Bills could definitely win that game.

The Chiefs would be silly not to play up the concussion and string the Bills along, and I expect to hear little tidbits about how it's touch and go blah blah blah all week..but I also exoect Mahomes to be under center opening snap.
 

TampaBaySkers

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No offense intended. I don't like Brady's chances on a frozen Lambeau turf. I don't think he'll scramble out of harm's way well enough or deliver strikes when it matters, especially later in the game. I think Rodgers will be loaded for bear and they will be able to put up some points. I just don't think Tampa wants to get into a shootout with them. I could be wrong if Tampa is able to slow the game down and really burn up clock. Green Bay seems especially motivated right now and playing at a high level.

Fair statement. So Tampa has a chance?
You better load up on GB at -3.5 and get paid.

You do know these two teams have played this year, right? Tampa won by 4td.
 

Capdanjou

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I like Mahomes, and the Chiefs, but I wouldn't mind seeing the Bills win it all. Talk about a long suffering sports town.
 
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drubendall

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Fair statement. So Tampa has a chance?
You better load up on GB at -3.5 and get paid.

You do know these two teams have played this year, right? Tampa won by 4td.
It's the playoffs, so there's always a chance. NO beat TB 38 to 3 in November. That bore no impact on last night's game.
 

SeaOfRed75

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If you want to be considered an elite receiver you need to catch those. It would’ve been an incredible catch though. I believe the reason he dropped it is because he was focused on dragging the second foot, which he impressively did, but then lost the ball when hitting the ground.




If you want to be considered the greatest QB ever, you need to make sure your receiver doesn’t have to lay out for a ball where he has two yards of separation on the defender.
That's ****ing two yards of separation? No wonder people aren't listening to you in this thread. Goat discussion aside come on dude. That's a step. Be generous and say a yard. But two yards of "separation". Bullshit.
 

Herbert Husker

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That's ****ing two yards of separation? No wonder people aren't listening to you in this thread. Goat discussion aside come on dude. That's a step. Be generous and say a yard. But two yards of "separation". Bullshit.
If you’re gonna be a dick, best to at least be correct:
 

GaRed

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Being as Pats fan of course I like Brady but it's a no go for the Buc's . Never liked em and never will. I will root for the Bills.
 
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Vikings alone make it a better division than the Patriots’. An extra loss to a division foe can be the difference between home field advantage and not even having a bye.

AFC East is just one thing that helped Brady. I’d say the biggest difference between the two is the defenses they’ve had for most of their careers. Easier to have a 4th quarter comeback when you’re down 17-14 than when you’re down 31-21.
I guess..... The Vikings have won 3 whole playoff games since Rodgers started his career and have missed the playoffs ten times out of 15 or so years.

what about Peyton Manning’s division? Texans, Jags, and Titans twice every year?

It isn’t like packers defense has been terrible. They have had Charles Woodson, Julius peppers, clay Matthews, ect.

I am a packers fan! I’m even not a Brady fan...
 

TampaBaySkers

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I guess..... The Vikings have won 3 whole playoff games since Rodgers started his career and have missed the playoffs ten times out of 15 or so years.

what about Peyton Manning’s division? Texans, Jags, and Titans twice every year?

It isn’t like packers defense has been terrible. They have had Charles Woodson, Julius peppers, clay Matthews, ect.

I am a packers fan! I’m even not a Brady fan...

Packers had the 2nd best scoring defense the year the won the super bowl.. clearly shows Rodgers isn’t an elite qb right Herbert?
 

Herbert Husker

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Packers had the 2nd best scoring defense the year the won the super bowl.. clearly shows Rodgers isn’t an elite qb right Herbert?
Just proves that it usually takes a great D to win it all. When he had a good defense (like Tom almost always has), he won.

Packers defense last 21 drives in the NFC championship:
13 touchdowns
4 field goals
4 punts
0 turnovers

I guess Rodgers just can’t will his defense to win big games like Brady does.
 

TampaBaySkers

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Just proves that it usually takes a great D to win it all. When he had a good defense (like Tom almost always has), he won.

Packers defense last 21 drives in the NFC championship:
13 touchdowns
4 field goals
4 punts
0 turnovers

I guess Rodgers just can’t will his defense to win big games like Brady does.

NE had 21st ranked defense in yards per game during Brady’s last SB win. Wouldn’t call them elite, but keep living in your false reality.
 

Herbert Husker

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NE had 21st ranked defense in yards per game during Brady’s last SB win. Wouldn’t call them elite, but keep living in your false reality.
The year they won the SB 13-3?

Grasping at yards per game is quite a reach. They were 7th in points per game. An even better measure is points per drive since it adjusts for style of play, which they were 7th in as well.

Here’s how the defenses of the Big 4 of this era stack up:
 

TampaBaySkers

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The year they won the SB 13-3?

Grasping at yards per game is quite a reach. They were 7th in points per game. An even better measure is points per drive since it adjusts for style of play, which they were 7th in as well.

Here’s how the defenses of the Big 4 of this era stack up:

Same ranking they were this year and they went 7-9, which you said was a great job done by Bellichick 😂.
 

Herbert Husker

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Same ranking they were this year and they went 7-9, which you said was a great job done by Bellichick 😂.
They were 7th in PPG, yes. But like I said, points per drive is a better stat, where they finished 16th. Their PPG was low because their college style running offense kept possession count low for their opponents’ offenses. PPD actually measures defensive success.

Even finishing 16th is a testament to Bellichick’s genius though, as they lost more players to preseason COVID opt outs than any team, mostly coming on defense.

Their offense was horrible because Cam Newton can’t throw, and they had no other pieces. You can blame Bellichick the GM for that, no doubt. But not Bellichick the coach. Winning 7 games with that roster is truly miraculous. Cutting down on Jameis’ 30 interceptions to add 4 wins to a stacked roster is not.

Again, you haven’t answered why you think Brady left town. He knew they were going to be trash. Remember when they were undefeated mid season last year and there was talk that their defense was better than the 2001 Ravens? What ever happened to that? Well, they finished 2-4, and Brady’s lack of arm strength (mysteriously rejuvenated this year) was a big reason for that.
 

TampaBaySkers

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They were 7th in PPG, yes. But like I said, points per drive is a better stat, where they finished 16th. Their PPG was low because their college style running offense kept possession count low for their opponents’ offenses. PPD actually measures defensive success.

Even finishing 16th is a testament to Bellichick’s genius though, as they lost more players to preseason COVID opt outs than any team, mostly coming on defense.

Their offense was horrible because Cam Newton can’t throw, and they had no other pieces. You can blame Bellichick the GM for that, no doubt. But not Bellichick the coach. Winning 7 games with that roster is truly miraculous. Cutting down on Jameis’ 30 interceptions to add 4 wins to a stacked roster is not.

Again, you haven’t answered why you think Brady left town. He knew they were going to be trash. Remember when they were undefeated mid season last year and there was talk that their defense was better than the 2001 Ravens? What ever happened to that? Well, they finished 2-4, and Brady’s lack of arm strength (mysteriously rejuvenated this year) was a big reason for that.

Every team had to go through covid. Poor excuse. You’re just butthurt that you were wrong about Tom. You thought he would fail without Bellichick.. turns out it was the other way around.

So if Rodgers leaves GB(real possibility) is he removed from your GOAT status? Guess not since you don’t hold it against Manning.

This FL weather will keep you loose. Maybe helped with off-season recovery.
 

Herbert Husker

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Every team had to go through covid. Poor excuse. You’re just butthurt that you were wrong about Tom. You thought he would fail without Bellichick.. turns out it was the other way around.

So if Rodgers leaves GB(real possibility) is he removed from your GOAT status? Guess not since you don’t hold it against Manning.

This FL weather will keep you loose. Maybe helped with off-season recovery.
Manning didn't leave on his own terms. He was pushed out because his team drafted Andrew Luck. And why did they draft Luck? Because they went from being a playoff team to 2-14 when Manning got injured, unlike Brady's teams that I believe have gone 18-6 when he's been out.

Nevertheless, I had no problem with Brady leaving New England. He's earned the right to play wherever he wants. My only point is that the reason he left is because he knew they'd be bad. I think they would've been about .500 even if he stayed. He won 11 games in Tampa with a loaded roster. He would've lost a few more in NE and missed the playoffs with a bunch of scrubs. The 2-4 finish was a strong indication.

I also wasn't wrong about how these two teams' seasons would play out. Like I said, the writing was on the wall for the Patriots. And I thought before the season the Bucs would improve on their win total and make the playoffs. Why? Because they were close to doing so last year with a QB who threw 30 interceptions. 30!!! I believe that's an NFL record. Imagine how good your roster has to be to have the most interceptions in NFL history and still go 7-9. Adding a HOF QB was certainly going to help.

I will admit they were better than I expected, though. Brady is throwing it harder than he was last year, and I didn't anticipate that. Whether it's the cozy temps or a needle he borrowed from his linemen, I don't know. But I do know Brees plays indoors and his noodle arm was apparent this year... like it should be when you're in your 40s.
 

leodisflowers

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Manning didn't leave on his own terms. He was pushed out because his team drafted Andrew Luck. And why did they draft Luck? Because they went from being a playoff team to 2-14 when Manning got injured, unlike Brady's teams that I believe have gone 18-6 when he's been out.

Nevertheless, I had no problem with Brady leaving New England. He's earned the right to play wherever he wants. My only point is that the reason he left is because he knew they'd be bad. I think they would've been about .500 even if he stayed. He won 11 games in Tampa with a loaded roster. He would've lost a few more in NE and missed the playoffs with a bunch of scrubs. The 2-4 finish was a strong indication.

I also wasn't wrong about how these two teams' seasons would play out. Like I said, the writing was on the wall for the Patriots. And I thought before the season the Bucs would improve on their win total and make the playoffs. Why? Because they were close to doing so last year with a QB who threw 30 interceptions. 30!!! I believe that's an NFL record. Imagine how good your roster has to be to have the most interceptions in NFL history and still go 7-9. Adding a HOF QB was certainly going to help.

I will admit they were better than I expected, though. Brady is throwing it harder than he was last year, and I didn't anticipate that. Whether it's the cozy temps or a needle he borrowed from his linemen, I don't know. But I do know Brees plays indoors and his noodle arm was apparent this year... like it should be when you're in your 40s.

Tom might not be the best skilled QB, but he is a winner and seems to play well in big situations. If he would have stayed in NE, they would probably be in the playoffs doing what they normally do. Not saying they would have won it, but Brady elevates people.
 

Herbert Husker

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Tom might not be the best skilled QB, but he is a winner and seems to play well in big situations. If he would have stayed in NE, they would probably be in the playoffs doing what they normally do. Not saying they would have won it, but Brady elevates people.
“Plays well in big situations” is the biggest myth there is. He plays much worse in the playoffs. His defenses step up and win most of his playoff games. He’s played great in nine of his 43 playoff games.

Case in point this weekend. His defense is 100% the reason they won. But who gets all the credit? Brady. I feel for Suh and Lavonte. They should be getting praise this week. But nope, dink and dunk Brady with his 199 yards on 33 attempts with three touchdown drives amounting to 63 yards had a masterful performance.

There’s no such thing as “he just wins games.” His defenses win most of his games, and he just happens to be the game manager on the other side of the ball getting all the cred.
 

litespeedhuskerfan

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leodisflowers

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“Plays well in big situations” is the biggest myth there is. He plays much worse in the playoffs. His defenses step up and win most of his playoff games. He’s played great in nine of his 43 playoff games.

Case in point this weekend. His defense is 100% the reason they won. But who gets all the credit? Brady. I feel for Suh and Lavonte. They should be getting praise this week. But nope, dink and dunk Brady with his 199 yards on 33 attempts with three touchdown drives amounting to 63 yards had a masterful performance.

There’s no such thing as “he just wins games.” His defenses win most of his games, and he just happens to be the game manager on the other side of the ball getting all the cred.

He's led quite a few game winning drives over the years. He plays pretty well in big time situations. Yes, you are correct, football is a team game and it isn't just him winning the games, but there have been plenty of names that have moved on that don't have near the success as they did with Brady. Amendola, Welker, etc. I know this is your hill to die on, but Brady is a pretty special player.
 
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Herbert Husker

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He's led quite a few game winning drives over the years. He plays pretty well in big time situations. Yes, you are correct, football is a team game and it isn't just him winning the games, but there have been plenty of names that have moved on that don't have near the success as they did with Brady. Amendola, Welker, etc. I know this is your hill to die on, but Brady is a pretty special player.
I agree, he’s special. Just saying there are QBs who have been special-er.
 

bigboxes

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For years I was in the Manning camp as the best I had ever seen. And I go back to The days of Bart Star and Fran Tarkington. I refused to consider that Brady was on that level. I was wrong! It’s Tom and not even close. He’s like a 500 year flood. A person is lucky to see that greatness in a lifetime.

I'm totally with you on this. I was convinced that Brady was the beneficiary of a system. I also didn't like him because of Michigan. Then there was his hot wife. But the man stays cool under pressure, goes through his progressions and puts the ball in the optimal spot. I still don't "love" him as many do, but those rings and trips to the SB are indisputable.

My Mount Rushmore:

1. Manning (Peyton, not Eli)
2. Brady
3. Favre (if only Peyton and Brett could spawn an offspring)
4. Montana
 

T...Chafes

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Herbert, you have to remember that Tom Brady is currently 43 YEARS OLD!

I heard on the radio this morning that the 'tuck rule' game for Brady was 20 years ago today. Brady was 23 years old in that game. He's been playing an extremely high level for a long, long time.

And I'll state it again, Brady has not had incredible talent around him on offense all these years for the most part. Gronk, Wes Welker, Moss for a few years at the end of his career, Edelmen, Branch, Cory Dillon- end of career, Woodhead, etc, etc. No superstuds other than Gronk I'd argue- at the time they played for NE with Brady. Same argument could be said of Rodgers, I get that. Belicek's Patriots have also tanked this year without a 42/43 year old Brady.

You aren't going to change minds, just like we won't be able to change yours on this.
 
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TampaBaySkers

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Herbert, you have to remember that Tom Brady is currently 43 YEARS OLD!

I heard on the radio this morning that the 'tuck rule' game for Brady was 20 years ago today. Brady was 23 years old in that game. He's been playing an extremely high level for a long, long time.

And I'll state it again, Brady has not had incredible talent around him on offense all these years for the most part. Gronk, Wes Welker, Moss for a few years at the end of his career, Edelmen, Branch, Cory Dillon- end of career, Woodhead, etc, etc. No superstuds other than Gronk I'd argue- at the time they played for NE with Brady. Same argument could be said of Rodgers, I get that. Belicek's Patriots have also tanked this year without a 42/43 year old Brady.

You aren't going to change minds, just like we won't be able to change yours on this.

Next he will tell us Michael Jordan isn’t the GOAT.
 

Herbert Husker

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Herbert, you have to remember that Tom Brady is currently 43 YEARS OLD!

I heard on the radio this morning that the 'tuck rule' game for Brady was 20 years ago today. Brady was 23 years old in that game. He's been playing an extremely high level for a long, long time.

And I'll state it again, Brady has not had incredible talent around him on offense all these years for the most part. Gronk, Wes Welker, Moss for a few years at the end of his career, Edelmen, Branch, Cory Dillon- end of career, Woodhead, etc, etc. No superstuds other than Gronk I'd argue- at the time they played for NE with Brady. Same argument could be said of Rodgers, I get that. Belicek's Patriots have also tanked this year without a 42/43 year old Brady.

You aren't going to change minds, just like we won't be able to change yours on this.
My bashing of Brady isn’t based on his juiced up 43 year old season. It’s based on his entire career of getting praised for wins in which he played poorly, and never once getting blamed for a loss.

I get why. When you’re a 6th round draft pick, everything you do is viewed as an overachievement. When you’re a prodigy drafted #1 overall, every mistake you make is microanalyzed.

I actually agree though that Brady hasn’t had a ton of star power on his offenses. But he’s had great schemes that allow him to throw dinky 5-15 yard passes to wide open players crossing the middle of the field. Matt Cassel and Jimmy G did it too.
 

litespeedhuskerfan

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My bashing of Brady isn’t based on his juiced up 43 year old season. It’s based on his entire career of getting praised for wins in which he played poorly, and never once getting blamed for a loss.

I get why. When you’re a 6th round draft pick, everything you do is viewed as an overachievement. When you’re a prodigy drafted #1 overall, every mistake you make is microanalyzed.

I actually agree though that Brady hasn’t had a ton of star power on his offenses. But he’s had great schemes that allow him to throw dinky 5-15 yard passes to wide open players crossing the middle of the field. Matt Cassel and Jimmy G did it too.

If it's so easy and brings so much success why hasn't any other player come even close to the same level of success? All ya gotta do is dink and dunk and presto...GOAT.
 
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Herbert Husker

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If it's so easy and brings so much success why hasn't any other player come even close to the same level of success? All ya gotta do is dink and dunk and presto...GOAT.
I still consider him one of the best QBs of all time. Most of my critiques are hyperbole. I just think there are others in this era who would've had just as much or more success if they were in that system in that division paired with those Belichick defenses, as well as quite a bit of good fortune.

I usually use Rodgers as my example because I think he's the best. And I think if Brady were in Rodgers' shoes with McCarthy as HC and defenses that gave up five TDs in big playoff games, he'd be lucky to have a ring.
 

litespeedhuskerfan

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I still consider him one of the best QBs of all time. Most of my critiques are hyperbole. I just think there are others in this era who would've had just as much or more success if they were in that system in that division paired with those Belichick defenses, as well as quite a bit of good fortune.

I usually use Rodgers as my example because I think he's the best. And I think if Brady were in Rodgers' shoes with McCarthy as HC and defenses that gave up five TDs in big playoff games, he'd be lucky to have a ring.

I think on this subject you are cra cra...but mad props for being so convicted about it and hanging in there. Well dun my man, I want you in my foxhole :)
 

Herbert Husker

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I think on this subject you are cra cra...but mad props for being so convicted about it and hanging in there. Well dun my man, I want you in my foxhole :)
Lol I love a good sports debate. Haven't had enough in person lately so I had to get my fix online. Thanks for participating.

I'll save us all by refraining from biting at @TampaBaySkers Jordan bait.
 
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T...Chafes

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I think we'd all agree that Rodgers career passer rating is incredible, his passes are on point, and he has a tremendous live arm.

James Harden also puts up incredible numbers in basketball (or Steph Curry with his accuracy), hell even Wilt Chamberlain. But most would say Michael Jordan or Bill Russell are the GOATS because of the rings. (Or even LeBron or Kobe are the GOATs- but they got multiple rings as well.). The GOATS have performed at extremely high levels when the entire world is watching- time and time again. On the biggest stages numerous times, that's what earns them GOAT status.

More rings= more likely a GOAT! It is what it is......
 
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Herbert Husker

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Playoff Wins All Time NFL Franchises:

New England Patriots - 37
Green Bay - 36
Pittsburgh - 36
Dallas Cowboys - 35
San Francisco - 32

Tom Brady - 32
Number of playoff drives that started on opponent’s side of the field:
Brady: 67
...
...
...
Manning: 25
Brees: 17
Rodgers: 17
 

leodisflowers

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Number of playoff drives that started on opponent’s side of the field:
Brady: 67
...
...
...
Manning: 25
Brees: 17
Rodgers: 17

Can you post a link where you found this? I'd be interested to know the number of playoff games for each and factor how it really shakes out. Yes Brady's is higher, but he has been in a shitload more playoff games as well. Just would be interesting. By the way I am a Green Bay guy and don't love Brady, but some of these stats are insane that he has.
 
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