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OT: Kentucky Derby

Thought you were talking about yourself as "he".

My bad.
No problem, I've misread things before.

FWIW, I'm going to give you, and the others, my best shot here. You're an experienced enough handicapper and I know anything I say or post is still going to be subject to your ability to weigh all the factors than you consider important.

So, I can "throw it out there" and know that I'm not going to negatively influence your final decision.
 
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Dp, here, been lurking & doing some home projects! Also checked the weather at Churchill Downs for Sat! 75 at race time, cloudy! Want to read again the info as I just skimmed over first time! Enjoy all contributions I'm seeing! Got a fix today, rewatched Calvin Borel on the rail with Mine that Bird!
Well, dp, since you and I are a couple of old-timers who love to play the horses, I decided to tag your reply and use it to begin the process of posting about each Derby horses' personality profile. As a reminder to anyone who reads these profiles (some are very long) that I prefer you not change your opinions on a horse(s) because of something that I post.
FORTE (These are comments from an absolute expert in the horse' physical and mental abilities).

Forte was the 2 year old champion last year. He is an elite animal in more ways than just his physical ability.
He is a horse with an elite, battle tested Herd Dynamic. He has an individual herd dynamic (IHD) that includes his competitive ability and target ability. This is a confident, patient horse who targets the front of the pack and moves accordingly.

One thing that has been noticeable about Forte is that he tends to hold a little pressure as he stands in starting gate and tends to break laterally, he generally recovers well, but there is a pattern of behavior there. This is a horse that, when approaching the last turn is already projecting forward to the front of the pack, looking for a path to take before the jockey even begins to move the horse. He's very smooth and independent in his movement. He also seems to be able to anticipate the herd movement. Forte was essentially a finished product by the end of his 2 year old year which may explain why Pletcher has only ran him twice this year.

In his first outing this year, the Fountain of Youth, he stumbled slightly at the start, but quickly recovered and began the running with his ears flopping (an indicator of a horse running relaxed and easy). His internal splits in that race were 48:09, 24.11, and 30.92, so he was virtually not slowing down.

In the Florida Derby, he broke from gate # 11 in a 12 horse field. Again, he stumbled slightly, but his recovery was lightning fast. He was able to get to the 3-4 path by the first turn but lost some position in doing so. He was running in 9th place on the backstretch when jockey Ortiz started an early move. At that point, Mage (another Derby horse) blew past him on the outside. At that point, Ortiz made the decision to follow Mage. Forte's lateral movement and sensory transitions were very smooth. This is where his GHD and his IHD seem to come together to cope with the environment and the competitive drive come into play.

Despite being in 5th place in the stretch, the horse did not panic and ran his last furlong in 12.56. Forte makes complex tasks seem easy, he has the Herd Dynamic which is that of a Derby winner. The negative continues to be the pressure he builds up while standing in the starting gate. He has nervous energy with no place to go until the gate opens. End comments.
My comments:

He is out of Violence. His offspring tend to develop early as 2 year olds, then they show less development as 3 year olds. His slight stumbles and lateral movement out of the starting gate have not have cost him yet, but it can be an issue in this race. To his immediate left in the starting gate is Angel of Empire, one of his main challengers, and 2 doors down is Derma Sotogake who may really fire out of the gate. Not only will Forte need a new TOP but he will have to get a good trip to win.

A case can be made that he wasn't completely wound tight for the Florida Derby because he already had enough points to qualify for the Derby. It could also be a case where he really hasn't developed that much since his 2 year old season.

Don't let anything that I posted here deter you from betting on Forte if he is your choice. He is a champion, but I feel his trip could be very wide losing a lot of ground, and this is by far the most talented group of horses he has faced.
 
I really wanted Confidence Game and Two Phils to not get the 3 and 4 holes.

I’ve got some re-evaluating to do.
TWO PHIL'S profile:
Two Phil's has raced his entire career with blinkers, so that makes it difficult to access him because it affect's his sensory abilities. Where they do help him is in his forward focus. Thus far, he has only one race (synthetic track) that would make him a strong contender to win the Derby. As an example, his sire, Hard Spun was good enough to beat Street Sense (Derby winner) on synthetic, but was unable to beat him on the dirt. So, can Two Phil's repeat his performance on dirt as he did on the synthetic, we think not. He is a very good horse, and a top effort in the Derby would put him in the hunt, in fact, he was the last horse we cut prior to naming our top 5 horses. The question of being able to duplicate that synthetic run to the dirt is the main question.

Early on he proved to be a hard trying horse with good forward projection. In his second out at Colonial Downs, he showed outstanding speed while pressing a very fast pace of 21.80 and 44.65 indicating there is plenty of speed there.
It was also a positive in that he wasn't bothered by having a horse on either side of him during that race. Because of those blinkders, he is all forward energy.

Moving forward to his 4th career start in the Futurity at Keeneland. He drew post # 12 in a field of 14 which is not a good place to be. He was caught wide into the turn and bumped. His body control looked a little bit rough in this race and he tired to finish 7th. His effort was good, but he wasn't good enough to overcome the adversity. In his 3 year old season he began to show more even-tempered as he began to run longer distance. However, his final time in that race was very slow over the final 5/16th in 33.42.


Next was the 1 1/8 mile Risen Star. He moved into 3rd place turning for home and it looked like his race to win. He got out-closed by Angel of Empire on his outside and Sun Thunder on his inside. Mentally, he did not quit, but his final furlong in 13.40 was not good enough. The 1 1/8th mile on the deep-tiring track at the Fairgrounds seemed to be maxing out his race distance ability. But, then he looked great in his next race at the same distance on synthetic. His final 3 furlongs were 36.78 and his final furlong of 12.34 was much better than he previously ran on dirt.

So, is he a greatly improved horse, or does he just love the synthetic surface while competing against a group of non_Derby caliber horses? His blinkers compromise his space awareness, and the Derby is typically a very roughly run race. When Two Phils' is comfortable, he is a running machine and he does have the running style and tactical speed to get a good trip in the Derby.

My comments: I don't have him in my top 3, but I do include him with about 5 others who I expect to run very well. Even if he runs the same type race as he ran on synthetic, he will still need to improve about 2 points to have a chance to win. Definite contender if he gets a great trip and Loveberry doesn't get him in tight quarters and a bunch of bumping or jostling on the turns.
 
Good info on Desormeaux...thanks.
I just always assume that all Cox horses will be juiced to the gills on these big days and go from there. It's embarassing the stuff he pulls in the Breeder's Cup.
CONFIDENCE GAME Profile: He is a gritty, competitive minded colt who unfortunately hasn't raced since Feb. 25.
His breakthrough race was a step in the right direction, albeit there are a couple of red flags. We suspect there were problems coming out of the Rebel Stakes at Oaklawn, and we suspect Desormeaux thought there could be issues if he tried to squeeze in another start prior to the Derby.

Desormeaux purchased Confidence Game for a highly discounted price of $ 25,000.00 at the Keeneland sale, which for a strongly made colt like Confidence Game doesn't add up. He is by Candy Ride and the mare is a half-sister to the Grade One winner Balance, and one of the greatest race mares of all time Zenyatta. It is almost assured, there are issues that scared away other buyers.

Wearing no head gear, this horse showed a very strong forward projection, and in one early race seemed as though he would just climb over horses if the jockey allowed him. In his second start, he flew out of the gate and showed strong
IHD. He went the first quarter in 21.65 and handled being on the rail beautifully. In his next start, he had a slight hitch in the start, was jostled around in traffic, and caught 5 wide on the first turn. He tried to make a run turning for home but was once again jostled around in traffic. He is a gritty horse who will tire physically before he will mentally.

This is a horse that really enjoys being on the lead. In the stretch, he lost to lead to Rocket Can, yet battled back and re-took the lead. In the Lecomte Stakes he got off to a good start, was 3 wide while pressing the pace. He then submitted to the pace and both Two Phil's and Instant Coffee went by him easily. He then moved to the Rebel Stakes.
It was a sloppy, sealed track and had a very fast pace. He was sent 4 wide on the far turn, bumped with another horse, but continued on gamely to the wire, but there were things that were concerning to us.

He was getting out through the stretch which was the first time he had been unable to run a straight path. He also was stuck on his left lead which is something that had not happened prior. Combine those with Desormeaux not running again lead us to believe this colt is dealing with a physical issue. He is gritty, he is athletic, but not having ran over 1 1/16th mile to this point is an issue plus not having a race for a long period. The timeline in getting these horses ready for the rigors of the Derby are very unforgiving. He is attempting to skip a step and have to take a giant step forward. We love this horse's character, but the Derby is likely too much to ask.

My comment" That explains why Desormeaux had this horse on the Vet's List.
 
I like Angel of Empire, Tapit Trice, and Two Phils
Drew, since you named Angel of Empire as the first horse you list, I will do a profile on him.

ANGEL OF EMPIRE Profile: Angel of Empire has good sensory/behavorial traits when it comes with dealing with Herd Chaos. Despite being a large horse, he shows no hesitation putting his head into tight spaces. He has the patience of a classic GHD horse, but we see a high IHD intensity with his pinned ears and stiff tail as he drives to the wire. So far, the longer the race, the better his competitive energy looks. His closing times in the Rebel and Arkansas Derby are among the best of this group of horses.

He rates very highly in the Pattern of Motion re-enforcement. He has employed the same running style in all 6 of his starts. He is not fast out of the gate, but does a good job of hooking into the field of horses. In his 3 year old debut, his sensory and physical lead changes looked very smooth. In the Risen Star, he settled in 8th place, looking very comfortable in tight quarters. Running the final quarter in a very solid 12.85 he went past Two Phil's and Sun Thunder to win by 1 length. He showed herd independence and environmental control.

In Arkansas, as he settled in 7th place, he began, on his own, to zone in on the leaders. Prat moved him outside and began to hand ride him at the 6f mark.

He was in 3rd place and then moved past them all, and clearly shows the ability to release from the group. His final furlong was a very sharp 12.12. He was actually lengthening his stride at the end of the 1 1/8th mile race.

My comments: He is likely to pair his last race than go forward. He needs to work out a trip. Very strong contender.
 
15 18 5 in some order
The # 18 horse Rocket Can is mentioned here, so I will do a Profile on him.

ROCKET CAN Profile: He is what is considered to be an "adjunct" horse. Those horses don't normally possess an independent nature. They typically back down in the face of the herd leaders. He is an athletic, slanted horse in the IHD mold. He tends to react from the whip. He tends to run evenly.

In his race against Confidence Game, he took the lead, then relented which indicates his role as an adjunct. In the Fountain of Youth, it appeared Forte was at a completely different level. In the Arkansas, he was moving nicely when Angel of Empire passed him, and he just kept running at his normal gait. He wound up running fourth, but it appeared he had no intention of emptying his tank.

Because of his efficiency and temperament, we give Rocket Can a chance of running well in the Derby. Yet, because of his role as an adjunct, he will not fare well when up against the top animals in the Derby. They are adding blinkers to him, perhaps to get him out of the habit of being an adjunct to superior horses, and trying to separate him from them. It could make him more willing to pass horses.

My comment: He could make a jump, but not likely enough to put him in the winners circle.
Stranger things have happened.
 
The # 18 horse Rocket Can is mentioned here, so I will do a Profile on him.

ROCKET CAN Profile: He is what is considered to be an "adjunct" horse. Those horses don't normally possess an independent nature. They typically back down in the face of the herd leaders. He is an athletic, slanted horse in the IHD mold. He tends to react from the whip. He tends to run evenly.

In his race against Confidence Game, he took the lead, then relented which indicates his role as an adjunct. In the Fountain of Youth, it appeared Forte was at a completely different level. In the Arkansas, he was moving nicely when Angel of Empire passed him, and he just kept running at his normal gait. He wound up running fourth, but it appeared he had no intention of emptying his tank.

Because of his efficiency and temperament, we give Rocket Can a chance of running well in the Derby. Yet, because of his role as an adjunct, he will not fare well when up against the top animals in the Derby. They are adding blinkers to him, perhaps to get him out of the habit of being an adjunct to superior horses, and trying to separate him from them. It could make him more willing to pass horses.

My comment: He could make a jump, but not likely enough to put him in the winners circle.
Stranger things have happened.
I’ll take a shot here - you’re extremely high on Skinner
 
Good lord man that is a lot of details and information. You must really like the horses.

I love watching the races just never confident enough to bet. It would be a total guess.
 
The # 18 horse Rocket Can is mentioned here, so I will do a Profile on him.

ROCKET CAN Profile: He is what is considered to be an "adjunct" horse. Those horses don't normally possess an independent nature. They typically back down in the face of the herd leaders. He is an athletic, slanted horse in the IHD mold. He tends to react from the whip. He tends to run evenly.

In his race against Confidence Game, he took the lead, then relented which indicates his role as an adjunct. In the Fountain of Youth, it appeared Forte was at a completely different level. In the Arkansas, he was moving nicely when Angel of Empire passed him, and he just kept running at his normal gait. He wound up running fourth, but it appeared he had no intention of emptying his tank.

Because of his efficiency and temperament, we give Rocket Can a chance of running well in the Derby. Yet, because of his role as an adjunct, he will not fare well when up against the top animals in the Derby. They are adding blinkers to him, perhaps to get him out of the habit of being an adjunct to superior horses, and trying to separate him from them. It could make him more willing to pass horses.

My comment: He could make a jump, but not likely enough to put him in the winners circle.
Stranger things have happened.
I think there's a good chance they are sending Rocket Can to the lead.
 
This is such top notch material.
It only matters if it helps someone make a little money on the race. I just hope I don't play a part in taking someone off a horse they like, and then their horse runs well.
 
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tier 1 10 5 15 6 1 tier 2 14 3 18 4 11 tier 3 19 2 8 7 9 tier 4 17 16 13 12 20
You have # 10 Practical Move as one of your tier 1 choices, so I will profile him for you.

PRACTICAL MOVE Profile: Practical Move has used an excellent combination of early speed and finishing ability to earn 3 graded stakes in a row, but our instincts tell us he has reached his apex and that streak is about to end. A big reason we don't trust this horse is the amount of equipment he carries.

He tends to get stuck on his left lead in the stretch. In his 3rd start, he began to stumble out of the gate, which may attributable to the blinkers and shadow roll. In his next out at 7f, he broke outward and was bumped. He ran discombobulated and began a series of hitches in his sensory lead changes. In his next out, he did a nice lead change in the stretch, he seemed to want to get out, but the jockey employed the whip and corrected the horse. No doubt this horse needs a strong jockey to help guide him.

In his 3 year old debut, the San Felipe Stakes he also changed leads in the stretch. To his disadvantage, he has faced a 10 horse field just once, and in a congested 20 horse field those gate inefficiencies can become magnified. We have doubts about him handling the chaos of a large field, its possible his sensory values will change.

My comment: Anything is possible.
 
15 18 5 in some order
TAPIT TRICE Profile:

Tapit Trice is a physically talented horse and should love the 1 1/4 mile distance. He has an aloof attitude which makes it difficult to have a total read on him. He is not a good gate horse. He lacks urgency and it takes a few strides for everything to be in sync. He is a GHD based horse and hence he is not interested in dominance early within the group. His natural move is to settle in the back, then use his impressive stride and stamina to gradually put himself into the race. GHD horses with good time-in-motion profiles hit the board regularly in the Derby, when the pace collapses, they over-perform. Three of the biggest paying Derby winners were GHD closers: Giacomo, Mine That Bird, and Rich Strike.

We rate Tapit Trice way better than those 3 winners, but not as highly as Animal Kingdom or Orb because they were farther along in their pattern of motion development. The good news is this horse is steadily improving. He has shown an ability to learn on the fly. As early as his debut, he began to exhibit one of the most powerful learning process a horse can have -- herd motion. His rider puts him in the widest of all horses, there are 3 reasons why they must be doing this. 1 - they are trying to avoid kickback, 2 - they don't believe in this horse running inside of horses., 3- He is a large horse and they are trying to keep the horse from getting stopped.

During the running of a race, another horse bumped him twice, Tapit Trice is very perceptive and seems to be able to anticipate the moves of the other horses. The bumping was the result of the jockey using the whip to prevent him from moving out. In his 3 year old debut at Gulfstream Park, he again walked out of the gate, and the jockey immediately took him 6 wide. In the stretch, when another horse was coming out on him, he showed signs of good space awareness and anticipation to avoid contact. He will, on his own, avod contact.

In the Blue Grass Stakes, his jockey hustled him into the race early. Many times this will cause issues, but Tapit Trice's nonchalent attitude and lack of urgency played in his favor. Because of being moved into the race early, Tapit had to check twice into the first turn, while Verifying (Derby horse) was having a nice, easy trip. He has very good sustained speed. He has a nice continual development and should run well.

My comments: He has the top figure going into this race. He may back up due to a likely wide trip.
 
I’ll take a shot here - you’re extremely high on Skinner
Check out my comments after I do a Profile on Skinner.

SKINNER Profile: Skinner has been on a large Herd Dynamic growth pattern throughout his 3 year old season.
But, we think this physically talented colt still has some sensory efficiency issues to work out. Trainer Shireffs began addressing those by adding a shadow roll at the start of his 3 year old season, and it significantly improved his frequency of movement.

In his career debut, you can see what a horse looks like when his sensory system can't keep up with the environment. He ran with his head very high and he was over reactive to stimulus. If a horse drifted out one path towards Skinner, he moved 2 paths over the other way. He did not run a straight line, and was doing what is called floaty in space.

Although, he never fully settled, he launches into an IHD. In that debut race, he was still weaving, yet, he came home the final furlong like a rocket, 10.95. He ended his 2 year old season with a disastrous run in the American Pharoah Stakes. He broke with the early runners, but it soon proved that isn't a style that will fit him.

The combination of maturity and the added equipment produced a fairly dramatic change. When he ran in the San Felipe Stakes he began to look more comfortable and confident. His lead changes are slightly delayed at this point.
He's had issues with changing leads and it has caused him problems. His rider has kept him out wide, so its likely his handlers do not think he will handle being inside of horses due to his sensory issues. The Santa Anita Derby was his best race, but he still hasn't mastered his issues with the sensory issues.

He has good speed, but doesn't use it until he gets into the herd group. Skinner is improving and has the physical ability to compete and win the Derby. But we see potholes in his yet solved sensory issues, and as such, we do not trust him to get the job done in this race.

My comments: First of all, John Shireffs is a friend of mine since the mid 2000's. One of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet. He never rushes his horses. He is very strategic, and takes things in a step by step approach.

Even with Giacomo, that horse was beaten 3 times in his prep races, yet won the Kentucky Derby and paid over
$ 100.00 to win, of which, I'm still spending that money. There is no doubt in my mind, this horse has been pointed for the Derby his entire 3 year old season. The main objective was to finish well enough to earn points to gain entry in this race.

As a sidenote, this is the same trainer who guided the female Zenyatta to 19 or so straight victories, including winning the Breeder's Cup Classic against male horses. At this point, her winning was the highlight of my handicapping career in a race which I didn't even wager on. I knew how good Zenyatta was before she ever ran her maiden race. I never underestimate John when he has a quality animal. Do I think Skinner will win? I don't think ANY horse can win this race, yet, some horse will. I would be thrilled if John were able to pull it off.

I will have some money on this horse, but it will all be in exotics, because that's where the money is. Even though I KNOW there are a half dozen better horses in here. This is the toughest Derby I've ever tried to hit because I think there are several who can win this. Please, don't anyone make a bet on this horse because of my relationship with the trainer, okay? He is just as apt to not overcome his sensory issues and run way back in the pack.

I'm in a quandary because I have enormous respect for the man who profiles horses, and I have tremendous respect for the trainer of this horse. They have differing views on the horse's chance. So, how confident should that make me? LOL Bottom line, if someone OTHER than John were the trainer, I doubt I would like Skinner.

My theory on horseracing which I have employed for over 50 years: I have won before, and I will win again. I have lost before, and I will lose again. It is a very difficult race to predict.

Remember, chaos is the main opponent of all horses. Saturday is a day for chaos. A large dose of physical talent, and a huge dose of luck will put some horse in the winner's circle.
 
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Check out my comments after I do a Profile on Skinner.

SKINNER Profile: Skinner has been on a large Herd Dynamic growth pattern throughout his 3 year old season.
But, we think this physically talented colt still has some sensory efficiency issues to work out. Trainer Shireffs began addressing those by adding a shadow roll at the start of his 3 year old season, and it significantly improved his frequency of movement.
In his career debut, you can see what a horse looks like when his sensory system can't keep up with the environment. He ran with his head very high and he was over reactive to stimulus. If a horse drifted out one path towards Skinner, he moved 2 paths over the other way. He did not run a straight line, and was doing what is called floaty in space.

Although, he never fully settled, he launches into an IHD. In that debut race, he was still weaving, yet, he came home the final furlong like a rocket, 10.95. He ended his 2 year old season with a disastrous run in the American Pharoah Stakes. He broke with the early runners, but it soon proved that isn't a style that will fit him.

The combination of maturity and the added equipment produced a fairly dramatic change. When he ran in the San Felipe Stakes he began to look more comfortable and confident. His lead changes are slightly delayed at this point.
He's had issues with changing leads and it has caused him problems. His rider has kept him out wide, so its likely his handlers do not think he will handle being inside of horses due to his sensory issues. The Santa Anita Derby was his best race, but he still hasn't mastered his issues with the sensory issues.

He has good speed, but doesn't use it until he gets into the herd group. Skinner is improving and has the physical ability to compete and win the Derby. But we see potholes in his yet solved sensory issues, and as such, we do not trust him to get the job done in this race.

My comments: First of all, John Shireffs is a friend of mine since the mid 2000's. One of the nicest guys you would ever want to meet. He never rushes his horses. He is very strategic, and takes things in a step by step approach.
Even with Giacomo, that horse was beaten 3 times in his prep races, yet won the Kentucky Derby and paid over
$ 100.00 to win, of which, I'm still spending that money. There is no doubt in my mind, this horse has been pointed for the Derby his entire 3 year old season. The main objective was to finish well enough to earn points to gain entry in this race.

As a sidenote, this is the same trainer who guided the female Zenyatta to 19 or so straight victories, including winning the Breeder's Cup Classic against male horses. At this point, her winning was the highlight of my handicapping career in a race which I didn't even wager on. I knew how good Zenyatta was before she ever ran her maiden race. I never underestimate John when he has a quality animal. Do I think Skinner will win? I don't think ANY horse can win this race, yet, some horse will. I would be thrilled if John were able to pull it off. I will have some money on this horse, but it will all be in exotics, because that's where the money is. Even though I KNOW there are a half dozen better horses in here. This is the toughest Derby I've ever tried to hit because I think there are several who can win this. Please, don't anyone make a bet on this horse because of my relationship with the trainer, okay? He is just as apt to not overcome his sensory issues and run way back in the pack. I'm in a quandary because I have enormous respect for the man who profiles horses, and I have tremendous respect for the trainer of this horse. They have differing views on the horse's chance. So, how confident should that make me? LOL Bottom line, if someone OTHER than John were the trainer, I doubt I would like Skinner.

My theory on horseracing which I have employed for over 50 years: I have won before, and I will win again. I have lost before, and I will lose again. It is a very difficult race to predict. Remember, chaos is the main opponent of all horses.
One thing about Sheriffs though…the man knows how to bring a horse into a big race FIT. He’s like Desormeaux that way IMO.

His records back in the day with 1st time starters used to be incredible! Now I know he’s definitely gotten a little more conservative with the young horses, but the man doesn’t bring a pig to prom.
 
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One thing about Sheriffs though…the man knows how to bring a horse into a big race FIT. He’s like Desormeaux that way IMO.

His records back in the day with 1st time starters used to be incredible! Now I know he’s definitely gotten a little more conservative with the young horses, but the man doesn’t bring a pig to prom.
If John has asked Chris McCarron to work with that horse on changing leads, this is an entirely different animal. There's never been an equal to Chris on teaching horses how to seamlessly change leads. You know as well as I do how important it is for a horse to fluidly change leads on cue.
 
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It only matters if ih helps someone make a little money on the race. I just hope I don't play a part in taking someone off a horse they like, and then their horse runs well.
Frankly, I had my best day at Fonner when I went back in March heading your perspective regarding trainers.

On a side note, my Father and I do the big 3 and we don’t study enough to be this learned going in. With your permission, I’m going to try to identify your top 5 and do a super box.

Not to go overboard with my gratitude, this is worth every penny I've spent belonging to Husker sites.

It’s beyond cool.
 
Frankly, I had my best day at Fonner when I went back in March heading your perspective regarding trainers.

On a side note, my Father and I do the big 3 and we don’t study enough to be this learned going in. With your permission, I’m going to try to identify your top 5 and do a super box.

Not to go overboard with my gratitude, this is worth every penny I've spent belonging to Husker sites.

It’s beyond cool.
Thanks for the nice words Husker. It's probably a bit early for me to actually know who I would play in a super. Probably in a day or so I will do a post that will include horses that "could be" subject to gate issues, those that I think "might" get trapped wide on one or two turns, and horses that I think will get the distance.

I want to try to put as much useful information as I can to try to help anyone in this race. But, I certainly can't guarantee any results because there are so many variables involved.

Another thing, no way am I going to post the 5 horses that I think might hit the super, but, as you say, if you can read through the lines by Friday, and then drop a response of what you came up with, I'd sure let you know if I think you're reading things a certain way.

By the time I get done with all the profiles, it should paint a decent picture of horses that should have an advantage as well as those that might be disadvantaged because of their running style, issues with the gate, their tendency to run wide, etc.

It's not a science, its just an educated guess. Would love to see you hit something like that cause you're talking some real dough in almost any super on Derby Day. To be honest, the more profiles I do, the more the race starts to farther clarify things for me and I hope for others in this thread.
 
Frankly, I had my best day at Fonner when I went back in March heading your perspective regarding trainers.

On a side note, my Father and I do the big 3 and we don’t study enough to be this learned going in. With your permission, I’m going to try to identify your top 5 and do a super box.

Not to go overboard with my gratitude, this is worth every penny I've spent belonging to Husker sites.

It’s beyond cool.
I'll tag this thread to do the profile on Verifying.

VERIFYING Profile: Verifying is a very talented, athletic horse that has issues with a sensory that may be hard to overcome. We don't know the sensory issues with this horse which has caused them to have blinkers on his entire career. Depending on the type of blinkers used, they can interfere with their rear and oblique vision. Each horse reacts differently, but there is always a trade-off.

To an extent, the blinkers have played a part in isolating his physical ability, it has also limited his visual awareness and versatility. We identify him as a IHD with a single-target mindset. This is a colt with plenty of raw speed. This is a horse with patience, and he will not rush into space, he is controlled in his movements. In the Breeder's Cup Juvenile, we got to see what happens to Verifying when he doesn't get his trip. He was sandwiched and shuffled at the start falling to 8th place. He moved up alongside champion Forte, and as soon as Forte turned on his IHD, it was game over.
In his 3 year old debut at Oaklawn, he got an advantage over Gun Pilot at the head of the lane he slightly cocked his head to the inside, so he was trying to reach and feel if Gun Pilot would come back at him. That's an expression of the single-target focus that we mentioned earlier. Next was the Rebel Stakes. He was standing wide in the gate, and stabbed at the ground his first step, missing the start. He never got open space and a clean sensory path that makes him comfortable. He ran into a wall of horses at the head of the stretch, got beat to the first opening, and was stuck looking for room. He finished 4th but it was a hidden effort showing how blinkers interferred with his GHD and ability which compromise his awareness.

In the Blue Grass Stakes, he got off well. He was beaten a neck by Tapit Trice. He appears to be a horse that would have to hold on at 1 1/4. You cannot put this horse in traffic and expect him to anticipate and out maneuver other horses. We think it is imperative that he is sent in the Derby to avoid trouble. It likely will not be enough to handle the Derby demands.

My comments: This is one of the half dozen horses with enough speed to get to the front. As the profile states, depending on if he is inside of a horse or on the outside of a horse, his single target focus can cause issues. It's similar to the buddy-up situation where they lose sight of the big picture because of the small picture. In other words, he could be focused on that one horse and not cognizant of what is happening around him. He could be focused on a "one-horse" battle while other battles await.
 
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So where can i bet horse racing online legally for the derby? Is amwager legit?
 
It only matters if ih helps someone make a little money on the race. I just hope I don't play a part in taking someone off a horse they like, and then their horse runs well.
I'm gonna use this post so I can do a profile on Mage.

MAGE Profile: This is one of the most talented horses in this 3 year old crop, however, he is still an unrefined athlete.
Mage has a strong IHD and impressive speed. Everything about his debut was fast. His ears were pinned from start to finish. His body control looked good as he displayed in what we call single-platform IHD speed pattern of motion. (Break from the gate, get to the front, single kick to the wire when asked).

In the Fountain of Youth, at the start, he hit his hind end on the gate and was cut off by Rocket Can in early traffic. In the Florida Derby, he once again his the starting gate which relates to his being overly intense in the starting gate. There is something going on with his start-to-stop sequence, at it probably has to do with his sensory interpretations while standing in the gate. Unlike his second start, he rushed up to try to get tactical position and he tried to do a sustained closing pattern of motion. And it almost worked. He hit the front at the 16th pole, but Forte stayed on better and won by a length. Mage ran huge in the Florida Derby, but his final furlong in 13.19 was not enough to hold off Forte. He appeared to be shortening stride significantly.

Mage is a tenacious, competitive minded horse. There is major physical talent here. The issue is his Herd Dynamic and running style remain undefined. If he can iron out his starting gate issues, he could take another step forward in the Derby. Without a defined pattern of motion, he will likely be left with just winging it. This is a huge task for a horse still trying to figure out who he is.

My comment: They have moved riders to use Castellano. Historically, in the last 5 Derby's Castellano has moved up 3 of the 5 horses that he has ridden. I have heard, but haven't had it verified, they will employ some sort of a cushion on the back of his gate which will not allow him to go backward and it "could" have a bearing on how well he leaves the gate.
 
So where can i bet horse racing online legally for the derby? Is amwager legit?
I'm running out of threads to tag, so I will use this to profile Hit Show.

HIT SHOW Profile: This is a horse with a bull in the china shop attitude. He is an aggressive, close-spaced fighter with a gritty mentality. In his debut race at Keeneland, he was bumped twice at the start. Even with his hind end swinging out sideways, he was fighting to keep his nose in the fight at all costs. Stuck behind a wall of 7 norses, there was bumping and contact, yet he kept his nose sitting right off the rear of a horse looking for a way to get through. On the head-on replay we could see two other horses shying away from him, the other horses could feel his presence. He won by 5 lenghts and it was a fearless, youthful victory.

In his second start, he looked out of sorts. He seemed to get a little lost in the middle part of the race. His best tactical position seems to be 2-3 lengths off the leader. Closed space fighters sometimes like to spend a moment or two next to an opponent before putting them away. Contact is immaterial to this tank of a horse. His world is the horse next to him and what's out in front of him. He loves tight quarters and is what is called a stair step approach. He tends to one task at a time. Then moving to the next step. He is more bulldozer than graceful athlete.

He broke well in the Wood Memorial and was crowding horse inside of him to get over to the turn. In the stretch, he was between two horses and was being pinballed. Lord Miles won that race but Hit Show wanted more as he continued to try to battle on the gallop out. His best race is stalking the leaders up close. The closer he is, the better, because this is a horse who is getting ready to pick his battle. The concern is he hasn't faced any of the top Herd animals in this group. He has a big task in front of him.

My comments: His post position draw was horrible. Betting a horse like this in a big field scares the shit out of me. He could run the race of his life and draw some type of objection at points in the race. He is an intriguing son of a gun. Despite the post position, and the fact, they will have to try to send him, there are numerous horse that are just flat out faster. I feel he could impact other horses in the race if things are not going well for him.
 
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That I don't know. Maybe ask Pelini??
I'm going to use this thread to profile one of the two foreign horses.

CONTINUAR Profile: Continuar has a lot of traits that play well in the Derby. We think the 1 1/4 will pose no problem for him. Some horses are "push button", the rider flips the switch and the horse ignites. His energy is attached to a dimmer switch, one that you have to slowly turn up. It's a very smooth, even distribution of energy. The tightening of his GHD and his IHD is a work in progress.

It's important for the trainer to let this horse be who he wants to be.

My comments: This is very short because there are lots of questions about this horse, and add in the fact he is camped out in Post Position 20 and more unknowns appear. The only thing I will say about this horse is the trainer, is a fantastic trainer. In the Breeder's Cup a couple years ago, this man entered two horses and won both races. He is one cagey son of a gun. This horse has been near the front, off the pace, all over the place. Some of that may have been by design? At any rate this horse has a pattern ALMOST IDENTICAL to both Animal Kingdom and Mine That Bird. It's not likely from Post 20, but anything is possible.
 
Good lord man that is a lot of details and information. You must really like the horses.

I love watching the races just never confident enough to bet. It would be a total guess.
If you don't mind, I will use this response to profile the other Japanese horse, Derma Sotogake.

DERMA SOTOGAKE Profile: We think this horse has a chance to be the first horse from Japan to win the Kentucky Derby. Most importantly to us, Derma Sotogake is entering the Kentucky Derby on a fantastic Herd Dynamic growth pattern. He won the Dubai race by over 5 lengths and his time compared very favorably with the time from the Dubai World Cup ran later that evening. Older horses, the best in the world.

Prior to winning the Dubai, this horse had never led a race from start to finish. He is an IHD with a strong competitive streak, but he has a versatile, tactical running style and excellent energy distribution. His debut race was on turf and he ran poorly. In his next out, they put blinkers on, they delayed his interpretive response, and they then removed the blinkers. His 3rd race was 1 1/16th mile in a 16 horse field. In his 3rd race, he got started, had to wait, got going again and ran 3rd, BUT this is where his growth pattern begins.

His next mile was 1 1/8th mile and he was in the 11 post. He broke fast, and with one crack of the whip, he was upon the early leaders. He has an expressive, happy personality, his ears were flopping and he sat very kindly in a stalking position. There were 3 horses across as they hit the stretch. Once the jockey tapped him with the whip, he turned on his finishing gears. He drew off to win by 4 lengths and looked uncommonly refreshed as he hit the wire.

His next start was 1 1/8th with Continuar in the field. He did a slight stutter step at the start. He was stuck behind horses in 5th place into the turn, and would have to wait. He surged in the stretch and won the race. It was the emergence of a patient, IHD slanted attacking pattern of motion. This horse won his next out going a mile, and this horse certainly wants to run more than a mile. This was all in his 2 year old season.

In his 3 year old debut, he ran into a Baffert burner, Havnameltdown and was introduced to fractions of 21.83, 44.98, and 1:10.23. It was a good test and a fitness sharpener. He then ran in the 1 3/16th mile UAE Derby, and they moved to a new, top international rider Christophe Lemaire. He had a good start, and the soft hands of Lemaire guided him to the lead. Ears flopping, Derma Sotogake was soon relaxed and in control. He was truly leading that herd, dictating its rhythm of movement. He drew off to win easily defeating a Group 1 winner. Lemaire took that raw emerging talent and guided it with finesse.

He is easily the best Japanese horse to have shipped here. He is riding a fabulous Herd Dynamic and he has not plateaud yet. We expect him to employ a stalk and pounce running style, trying to get first run at the top Herd Dynamic horses in the field. He has a versatile IHD and we think he will love the mile and a quarter.

My comments: So far, foreign invaders are 0-18 in the Derby. This is not one of them. This horse is a beast. He's won 3 different Grade One races in 3 different countries. Its what he does. A repeat of the Dubai race makes him the likely winner. If he is on his game, I would be hard pressed to play against him. But, its the Derby, and anything can happen. He just seems to have a beautifully adaptive running style which seems to fit into almost any race scenario. This country is being passed in everything these days, so I suppose a foreign horse is due to win the Derby.

Do NOT bet this horse because of what you just read, crazy shit happens in the Derby. And I don't want him to flop and then catch a bunch of shit from this room. LOL Believe it or not, it took a lot of work and a lot of time to try to give as honest of appraisal as I could. I can definitely be wrong, but, it won't be that I don't know this game pretty well. I wrote every one of these profiles with the best of intentions. At 10:00 this morning, I told myself I would work 12 hours and do 15 profiles, and I accomplished that. Good luck to all.
 
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Me, after I pick a horse based on how their name resonated with me.
 
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dingle, I knew because of so much of your younger days spent with horses, would enjoy a look at a horse from a mental approach.

Among the 15 profiles I did yesterday, the most intriguing to me was Hit Show and the fact that he is a bully. LOL

A horse that likes to eyeball an inferior horse for a few seconds, and then dispatch them.

Reminded me of Ali standing over a fallen opponent.
 
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$0.50 Tri 5,14,15/3,5,14,15,17/2,3,6,9,10,17
$5 Exacta Box 3,5,14,15,17
Capiche, that .50 tri is a $ 33.00 wager, as I'm sure you know. Can I pose a couple questions please?
How much do you win if it comes in 5/14/15, or 5/15/14, or 14/5/15, or 15/5/14, or 14/15/5, or 15/14/5?
Not to be Mr. Obvious, but you have the 5/14/15 to all run 1st or 2nd, but none of them to run 3rd?
Nothing wrong with that, but what happens if any combination of 5/14/15 runs 1-2-3?
I understand if you're just trying to goose up the payoff in the 3 hole with a longer shot. If so, that's cool.
I'm just interested in the way you constructed your wager. Thanks
 
I’ve read some interesting stuff on training racehorses in particular to improve their gate loading and behavior but nothing like the in depth analysis you posted.
The report is actually a lot more comprehensive on each horse, but I did have to edit them down or else this site would run out of ink. Plus, there's always the chance of paralysis by analysis.

Among all the guys in this room, the first guy I thought of that would enjoy this aspect would be you. Among all the fellas in here, you have so much hands-on, working knowledge of horses and that they DO have minds of their own.

The key of course, is having an understanding of each horse and trying to find what makes them tick.

Like any other athlete, I love horses that are really athletic and smart.

I'm one of those few oddball types who very closely watch the ears on each horse as they begin to enter the track, because it kind of tells me what the horse is thinking.
 
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The report is actually a lot more comprehensive on each horse, but I did have to edit them down or else this site would run out of ink. Plus, there's always the chance of paralysis by analysis.

Among all the guys in this room, the first guy I thought of that would enjoy this aspect would be you. Among all the fellas in here, you have so much hands-on, working knowledge of horses and that they DO have minds of their own.

The key of course, is having an understanding of each horse and trying to find what makes them tick.

Like any other athlete, I love horses that are really athletic and smart.

I'm one of those few oddball types who very closely watch the ears on each horse as they begin to enter the track, because it kind of tells me what the horse is thinking.
I'm responding to my own reply here, because in reviewing the horses I profiled yesterday, I did manage to omit Kingsbarn, and he is a potential factor, so I will include Kingsbarn now.

KINGSBARN Profile: Undefeated and lightly raced, he enters the Derby with a promising Herd Dynamic development pattern. He's not as battle-tested as we would like, but he has passed a series of incrementally harder tests, building on each race while exhibiting some elite athletic traits. He was purchased for $ 800K at the Fasig-Tipton sale, and in his training he ran 2 furlongs in a breathakingly fast 20.3 seconds.

He debuted in Jan at Gulfstream and in his first race going 1 mile he drew post #2. He broke straight from the gate, but the jockey had to tap the brakes early when another horse came over in front of him. Not to be deterred, he calmly redirected to the inside and looking very fluent moved up to within a length of the pacesetter. He wanted to take over the race at that point, but he was hemmed in and had to wait the entire turn. At the head of the stretch, he split horses, and they both seemed to shy away from Kingsbarn, feeling his presence.

In is second out at Tampa Bay, he watched as a frantically rushed horse ran the opening quarter in 22.79 and he settled in 3rd place. He definitely shows an IHD and he is unique because he doesn't rush into space. At the half mile pole, the rider gave him a slight nudge and in a very responsive, forward minded move went right to the lead. As he opened up a 2 length lead in the stretch he appeard to "reach back" for competition and that caused a little drifting in the lane. When the jockey cracked him twice with the whip, he released from the group and won by nearly 8 lengths.

His next start was in the Louisiana Derby, he was in post 6, there was not much speed in the race, so Kingsbarn went right to the lead. Jace's Road (Derby horse) tried to press him from the outside but Kingsbarn had a 1 length lead and was "scissoring back" to feel where the group was, he then settled beautifully and looked relaxed and confident on the lead. In this race, he was setting a very slow pace, very slow pace. At the head of the stretch, rider Prat must have loved the move of the horse when he barely moved his hands and Kingsbarn immediate went into a higher gear. He won by 3 1/2 lengths under a hand ride.

Kingsbarn's sire, Uncle Mo, was a brilliantly fast horse who could also set the pace and finish fast. Kingsbarn has that measured energy distribution, and we think he can get the 1 1/4 mile. He is an extremely agile, athletic horse. He's competitive, light on his feet, and has a clean, balanced stride. His mental efficiency has looked great so far. His transitions have been clean, and we've not seen one ounce of stress in him yet. Despite his lack of experience, we think he's well prepared for this race in terms of running style.

Two things that are missing are a heated battle against a top horse, and a really fast paced race. Those are measured threshholds he has yet to pass. The Derby is likely to test him in terms of physical speed. He is still ascending the Herd Dynamic ladder, and it is a lot to ask for a horse, but this horse may possess the ability to take a major step forward in the Derby.

My comments: For an unraced 2 year old this horse, beginning of the year, has shown tremendous development. His Performance Figures are 9,4,3 all accomplished using little effort from the horse. He's really green compared to the top battle tested, elite horses in this field, but do really know HOW good this colt "could" be? I don't. He has rider, J Ortiz who is near the top of the elite jockeys, and as a sidenote, in 5 Derby rides this jockey has IMPROVED 4 horses. That's impressive, although every year is a new year.

This horse is coming into the race off of a TOP-TOP-TOP and its unknown what type of race he may throw come Saturday.

He could very easily melt under the pressure, he may come eyeball-to-eyeball with one of the truly elite IHD/GHD animals and decides he wants no part of that gig. Or this horse might have several more gears that he hasn't had to show, and we could have another American Pharoah on our hands. It's probably one of the other. Is it likely he is ready to go shoulder to shoulder with Angel of Empire, Tapit Trice, Forte or Derma Sotogake and walk away or dig in and prove what he really is? It's hard to tell, but its intriguing as hell, and I'll probaby have to find out the hard way. LOL With the morning line odds of 12/1 that is too low for me to get that excited, but I likely will include this horse somewhere in my exotics.

By now, it should be clear why I consider this to be such a difficult race to handicap. Almost every single elite horse likes to come from off the pace, and we all know there will be gate issues, ground loss on one or both turns, and just the already mentioned chaos.

When I write, for example on Derma Sotogake "a repeat of his Dubai win makes him the likely winner", it does NOT mean I think this horse is the winner, it simply means if he duplicates his last effort he could be the winner. I could've said the same thing about Tapit Thrice and Verifying, two horse along with Derma Sotogake who have the same BEST Performance Figures of all the horses in this race. It does NOT mean any of those three will repeat their last figure because of the environment, the size of the field, the length of the race, overall quality of the field and just the loss and ground that can beat any particular horse in this race.

Earlier this week, I had already committed to wagering LESS money in this Derby than I have for probably a decade. I think the race is that tough. The things is, if you bet a "speed horse" and he has gate issues and is shuffled back the start, you are a screwed goose and you know it in the first 30 seconds. By the same token, if you play a mid-runner and he gets stuck long term in the pocket, you could run out of room before that horse gets to run his race, lastly if you're playing a deep closer, and that horse is 5w and 5w on the turns, that horse will likely be a no-show. Its just a tough, tough race to be super confident in any one horse. Good luck to all.
 
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