Ron Brown.....

[TheBeav815]

So let’s expand the case beyond a baker of cakes. What if a bank didn’t want to serve LGBT consumers? What if it’s a pharmacy? Or hospital? Because they are opposed to it.

Yes the baker was a stupid situation but there are real consequences to allowing businesses the right to discriminate.

Thank you, it's about preventing it happening en masse, not whether it's important if one guy bakes a cake he doesn't wanna bake.

You have laws like that so that businesses can't just decide they're going to blackball people. Banks are an excellent example. If the heads of five major banks decided next week they were going to close the accounts of every registered republican, suddenly it would be CRYSTAL clear to you guys why laws like that protect everyone, not just people you agree with. You live would become very different in a hurry if the major credit card carriers decided they don't do business with "your kind" any more, whatever kind that may be.

Seems goofy when it's a bakery but if a bakery can't just do it then neither can the phone and cable company (try getting a job with no phone number or internet access), etc.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

Apples and oranges. None of the examples you give have anything to do with a behavior, but simply belonging to a class of people. The baker in question had sold stuff to this gay couple before and had no issue with it, even though he knew they were gay. He was not excluding them from his business for belonging to a class of people. They could buy all the cupcakes they wanted and he didn't give a shit. But a wedding is an "act" with moral implications and broad social implications. And the baker was asked to lend his artistic creativity to a form of speech expression related to this activity that he found objectionable. And the Supreme Court agreed by the way. This guy won his case.

Edit: I just think too common sense should rule. So, for example, I would also support the right of a Jewish baker to refuse to bake a cake for the local Neo-nazi rally

Listen, I don't have an issue with the baker refusing service. That is his business. I would rather him just put up a sign that says I won't make cakes for LGBT unions and be done with it. Where I would have a problem with it is if he went to court to try to make it a law that says no baker can make cakes for LGBT unions. That is what Brown is doing when he protesting the ability of a gay or lesbian couple from receiving health insurance or what have you.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

So let’s expand the case beyond a baker of cakes. What if a bank didn’t want to serve LGBT consumers? What if it’s a pharmacy? Or hospital? Because they are opposed to it.

Yes the baker was a stupid situation but there are real consequences to allowing businesses the right to discriminate.

The baker did not refuse to serve LGBTQ people. He served them all the time. Every day. He refused to lend his creative talent to a form of speech expression related to an "Act", i.e. a wedding. That is different. It involves coercing someone into a form of speech that they find objectionable. I wish people would get this distinction right. A distinction the Supreme Court agreed with.

So as long as we are talking about consequences for allowing discrimination, we also need to talk about the consequences of discriminating against small businesses that have a religious ethos. Freedom of religion is the first right mentioned in the Bill of Rights. I guess our founders thought it important. And before we all run off with pitchforks and torches to teach that baker a lesson, we need to remember that.

I have a friend who runs a Jewish deli in Brooklyn. The business has been in his family for 80 years. He is an Orthodox Jew. He serves largely Orthodox Jewish customers. He now lives in fear that some gay couple is going to come in just to make a point and ask him to cater their wedding reception (he does catering too). He would have to say no according to him. Why should he have to live in such fear??

 

[Pennsyhusker]

Listen, I don't have an issue with the baker refusing service. That is his business. I would rather him just put up a sign that says I won't make cakes for LGBT unions and be done with it. Where I would have a problem with it is if he went to court to try to make it a law that says no baker can make cakes for LGBT unions. That is what Brown is doing when he protesting the ability of a gay or lesbian couple from receiving health insurance or what have you.

Totally agree Tuco. 100%. I guess I should have made it clear that I think Brown is very wrong on this stuff. He is a crusading zealot.

 

[TheBeav815]

Listen, I don't have an issue with the baker refusing service. That is his business. I would rather him just put up a sign that says I won't make cakes for LGBT unions and be done with it. Where I would have a problem with it is if he went to court to try to make it a law that says no baker can make cakes for LGBT unions. That is what Brown is doing when he protesting the ability of a gay or lesbian couple from receiving health insurance or what have you.

Yep. We have freedom OF religion in this country but we also have freedom FROM religion. What it says in the Bible should have zero bearing on what the law states. And if you think that sucks, ask yourself if you'd still feel that way if his name wasn't Ron Brown it was Yusuff Mohammad and he wanted his Islamic religious views reflected in NE state law.

Let another few decades go by and our kids and grandkids are going to be as shocked and embarrassed that gay people used to be treated like this as we are that interracial marriage used to be illegal.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

Yep. We have freedom OF religion in this country but we also have freedom FROM religion. What it says in the Bible should have zero bearing on what the law states. And if you think that sucks, ask yourself if you'd still feel that way if his name wasn't Ron Brown it was Yusuff Mohammad and he wanted his Islamic religious views reflected in NE state law.

Let another few decades go by and our kids and grandkids are going to be as shocked and embarrassed that gay people used to be treated like this as we are that interracial marriage used to be illegal.

Exactly. Government should be secular.
I actually think the government should just get out of the marriage business completely. Why do we have to have a marriage license from the government anyway? I am a libertarian and that kind of intrusion is what makes me a libertarian. If people want their marriage to be legally binding then just go to a lawyer and fill out a form, a contract, that makes it binding. Then go hold your ceremony wherever you see fit. Why do I need the government involved in this at all??

Edit: answer... taxes. lol. Another reason to be a libertarian

 

[DudznSudz]

Lol, I think our normal moderators took the day off. This thread has been going for a while.

 

[Redondo]

Thank you, it's about preventing it happening en masse, not whether it's important if one guy bakes a cake he doesn't wanna bake.

You have laws like that so that businesses can't just decide they're going to blackball people. Banks are an excellent example. If the heads of five major banks decided next week they were going to close the accounts of every registered republican, suddenly it would be CRYSTAL clear to you guys why laws like that protect everyone, not just people you agree with. You live would become very different in a hurry if the major credit card carriers decided they don't do business with "your kind" any more, whatever kind that may be.

Seems goofy when it's a bakery but if a bakery can't just do it then neither can the phone and cable company (try getting a job with no phone number or internet access), etc.

Banks function in the financial and government community via the federal reserve and monetary community, which has the force of federal regulation behind it. Same with credit card companies. Bakeries don't unless they directly have some sort of federal contract. There is a difference.

Phone and cable companies operate under fcc regulations, bakeries don't. Different animals. disclaimer--I am not stating a position, just pointing out differences.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

I am sorry I brought up the example of the baker. I was just arguing for common sense and a live and let live approach to the issue in general.

But I think the baker discussion is also sidetracking the focus on Ron Brown's activities, with which I disagree. I don't want him representing our University, cakes or no cakes.

 

[chicolby]

The baker did not refuse to serve LGBTQ people. He served them all the time. Every day. He refused to lend his creative talent to a form of speech expression related to an "Act", i.e. a wedding. That is different. It involves coercing someone into a form of speech that they find objectionable. I wish people would get this distinction right. A distinction the Supreme Court agreed with.

So as long as we are talking about consequences for allowing discrimination, we also need to talk about the consequences of discriminating against small businesses that have a religious ethos. Freedom of religion is the first right mentioned in the Bill of Rights. I guess our founders thought it important. And before we all run off with pitchforks and torches to teach that baker a lesson, we need to remember that.

I have a friend who runs a Jewish deli in Brooklyn. The business has been in his family for 80 years. He is an Orthodox Jew. He serves largely Orthodox Jewish customers. He now lives in fear that some gay couple is going to come in just to make a point and ask him to cater their wedding reception (he does catering too). He would have to say no according to him. Why should he have to live in such fear??

Why is he so afraid of gay people wanting to hire him for performing the service his business provides? I don't get it. Sorry.

As a business owner, you generally hope for customers. Your friend has a customer who wants to hire him and he wants to refuse them. I don't get why he's so in fear of a gay couple. They can't "make a point" if he just provides the service his business says it does.

 

[Redondo]

Totally agree Tuco. 100%. I guess I should have made it clear that I think Brown is very wrong on this stuff. He is a crusading zealot.

And it is his right to be wrong, not unlawful. and his right to be a crusading zealot, which are subjective opinions that you have for him, and that is his right to be, if he is, as long as he is not violating written statutes disclaimer--no details about what he did, I'm just stating his right to do it, just like it is anyone else's right to criticize it, within the law

 

[Redondo]

Why is he so afraid of gay people wanting to hire him for performing the service his business provides? I don't get it. Sorry.

As a business owner, you generally hope for customers. Your friend has a customer who wants to hire him and he wants to refuse them. I don't get why he's so in fear of a gay couple. They can't "make a point" if he just provides the service his business says it does.

It seems he was not afraid of the community, just the marriage ceremony, which he disagreed with on his personal religious grounds, which seemed to me was his right to do. disclaimer--not taking sides, just stating observations

Although, he may be afraid of the community now with all the harassment and threats.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

Why is he so afraid of gay people wanting to hire him for performing the service his business provides? I don't get it. Sorry.

As a business owner, you generally hope for customers. Your friend has a customer who wants to hire him and he wants to refuse them. I don't get why he's so in fear of a gay couple. They can't "make a point" if he just provides the service his business says it does.

Who said he was afraid of gay people? I did not read that in the articles I saw on the topic.
Anyway... as I said.... this is not the main point of the thread. Ron Brown is. And I disagree with his actions

 

[timnsun]

Why is he so afraid of gay people wanting to hire him for performing the service his business provides? I don't get it. Sorry.

As a business owner, you generally hope for customers. Your friend has a customer who wants to hire him and he wants to refuse them. I don't get why he's so in fear of a gay couple. They can't "make a point" if he just provides the service his business says it does.

The gay couple’s attorney has been harassing the baker, asking him to make sexually explicit cakes for a party he (or she... I forget the gender of the attorney) is hosting. Should he be forced to make that as well?

 

[Redondo]

I am sorry I brought up the example of the baker. I was just arguing for common sense and a live and let live approach to the issue in general.

But I think the baker discussion is also sidetracking the focus on Ron Brown's activities, with which I disagree. I don't want him representing our University, cakes or no cakes.

I understand, but this baker was just trying to live with himself within his belief system, and has a right to do that, also, just as lgbt individuals have a right to do. I don't know that the baker was trying to take away those individuals' right to wed, as some have characterized it. I think he was just exercising his perceived right to not participate in it. disclaimer--not taking sides, just stating observations

 

[Baxter48]

Why is he so afraid of gay people wanting to hire him for performing the service his business provides? I don't get it. Sorry.

As a business owner, you generally hope for customers. Your friend has a customer who wants to hire him and he wants to refuse them. I don't get why he's so in fear of a gay couple. They can't "make a point" if he just provides the service his business says it does.

If I recall this gay couple went to several different bakeries until they found a religious one they were making a political statement no more nothing less

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

And it is his right to be wrong, not unlawful. and his right to be a crusading zealot, which are subjective opinions that you have for him, and that is his right to be, if he is, as long as he is not violating written statutes disclaimer--no details about what he did, I'm just stating his right to do it, just like it is anyone else's right to criticize it, within the law

My point was never that he didn't have the right. He can do whatever the eff he wants. I simply don't see the need to go full out in an attempt to stop people from getting benefits simply because you don't agree with their lifestyle. In the baker example, HE was making the cakes and by making the cake HIS religious rights were seen to be violated. By allowing 2 men to marry, your ability to practice your religion is not impeded, the union of the two people does nothing to you and your life, other than make you uncomfortable because you don't like it. No one is asking you to perform the ceremony.

 

[CheeseRunza]

Yep. We have freedom OF religion in this country but we also have freedom FROM religion. What it says in the Bible should have zero bearing on what the law states. And if you think that sucks, ask yourself if you'd still feel that way if his name wasn't Ron Brown it was Yusuff Mohammad and he wanted his Islamic religious views reflected in NE state law.

Let another few decades go by and our kids and grandkids are going to be as shocked and embarrassed that gay people used to be treated like this as we are that interracial marriage used to be illegal.

But how is "religion" defined? Is secularism a religion? How about athiesm? Nationalism, patriotism? There are any number of belief systems that could be argued to be religions as defined in a broad state.

 

[Redondo]

My point was never that he didn't have the right. He can do whatever the eff he wants. I simply don't see the need to go full out in an attempt to stop people from getting benefits simply because you don't agree with their lifestyle. In the baker example, HE was making the cakes and by making the cake HIS religious rights were seen to be violated. By allowing 2 men to marry, your ability to practice your religion is not impeded, the union of the two people does nothing to you and your life, other than make you uncomfortable because you don't like it. No one is asking you to perform the ceremony.

I think you are talking about other people trying to stop benefits, not the baker, correct? Was someone trying to stop the 2 people from getting married? It wasn't the baker was it? I had only heard he didn't want to participate via the cake, and had nothing to do with the actual marriage ceremony. I guess I don't know who was doing the disallowing, if anyone, in this wedding situation. disclaimer--not taking sides, just stating observations

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

I think you are talking about other people trying to stop benefits, not the baker, correct? Was someone trying to stop the 2 people from getting married? It wasn't the baker was it? I had only heard he didn't want to participate via the cake, and had nothing to do with the actual marriage ceremony. I guess I don't know who was doing the disallowing, if anyone, in this wedding situation. disclaimer--not taking sides, just stating observations

I will provide a brief summary since the topics have taken a few turns. In the statement below, the word you is a general you, not a specific you.

My opinion is that I don't understand the need of people to spend so much of their time in the lives of others. What someone does in their life, that does not directly affect your life, is simply not your business. In the case of the baker it did affect his life and his religious beliefs. In the case of the zealot that is trying to ban any and all benefits to the gay and lesbian community, it most likely doesn't. My ability to practice my religion. My ability to say what the gay couple is doing is wrong is not affected. My ability to marry my future spouse is not affected.

 

[chicolby]

The gay couple’s attorney has been harassing the baker, asking him to make sexually explicit cakes for a party he (or she... I forget the gender of the attorney) is hosting. Should he be forced to make that as well?

Come on now. You're inserting completely false points to this story. The attorney is harassing the baker, asking him to make explicit cakes for a party? Where are you getting this news? If a baker has a policy against putting explicit designs on a cake and it's enforced no matter what your race, sexuality, religion is, then the baker has no problem.

Don't try to make the story more convincing by bringing in false points.

 

[Baxter48]

I will provide a brief summary since the topics have taken a few turns. In the statement below, the word you is a general you, not a specific you.

My opinion is that I don't understand the need of people to spend so much of their time in the lives of others. What someone does in their life, that does not directly affect your life, is simply not your business. In the case of the baker it did affect his life and his religious beliefs. In the case of the zealot that is trying to ban any and all benefits to the gay and lesbian community, it most likely doesn't. My ability to practice my religion. My ability to say what the gay couple is doing is not affected. My ability to marry my future spouse is not affected.

I agree except I don't need the LGBT people telling me as a religious person I need to except them I don't care what they do in there own personal life hell smoke weeds as long as it doesn't effect me cool, but don't demand I except there life style that's where the biggest problem is!!!! I don't go around wearing a tshirt say i like pu$$y I don't go around demanding people except my way of life

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

I agree except I don't need the LGBT people telling me as a religious person I need to except them I don't care what they do in there own personal life hell smoke weeds as long as it doesn't effect me cool, but don't demand I except there life style that's where the biggest problem is!!!! I don't go around wearing a tshirt say i like pu$$y I don't go around demanding people except my way of life

Sure you do. You do it everyday. We all do. By walking into the grocery store in your suit on Sunday afternoon, you are showing everyone that you just finished your religious service. By walking with your girlfriend hand in hand you are saying look at me I'm straight. By denouncing the gay community your are saying you need to accept my way of life because yours is wrong.

 

[headcard]

Accept

https://www.gingersoftware.com/english-online/spelling-book/confusing-words/accept-except

 

[timnsun]

Come on now. You're inserting completely false points to this story. The attorney is harassing the baker, asking him to make explicit cakes for a party? Where are you getting this news? If a baker has a policy against putting explicit designs on a cake and it's enforced no matter what your race, sexuality, religion is, then the baker has no problem.

Don't try to make the story more convincing by bringing in false points.

Read it and weep, my friend...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ea...iece-cakeshop-colorado-lawsuit-discrimination

 

[Baxter48]

Sure you do. You do it everyday. We all do. By walking into the grocery store in your suit on Sunday afternoon, you are showing everyone that you just finished your religious service. By walking with your girlfriend hand in hand you are saying look at me I'm straight. By denouncing the gay community your are saying you need to accept my way of life because yours is wrong.

One flaw is that some of the old religions find it ok the be gay such as Methodist Presbyterian and other main stream religions and I don't denounce them like i said do what they want to do in there private lives anytime you do something in public you put yourself up to be scrutinized by any number of people I'm bald or I'm fat or I'm drunk they have nothing compared to what the black people or native Americans endured

 

[chicolby]

Read it and weep, my friend...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ea...iece-cakeshop-colorado-lawsuit-discrimination

In candor, this is news to me, but far from evidence that the attorney requested the explicit designs. The line is "Phillips believes that some of those requests came from the same Colorado lawyer."

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't from the attorney - but I'm not surprised that the baker is now getting prank requests.

Anyway, I don't hate Ron Brown. I think he made a serious mistake by lobbying against same sex rights when he used his role as a coach of young men by listing his Nebraska Athletic Department address. I hope he learned from the mistake and I believe that Scott Frost and the entire coaching staff places high importance on being inclusive based on what I've read from his policy to his team.

I think the baker should have made the cake. I don't think the Supreme Court ruled that it's OK to do so - instead, I think their decision was based on the narrow decision in THIS situation.

This topic has run its course.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

One flaw is that some of the old religions find it ok the be gay such as Methodist Presbyterian and other main stream religions and I don't denounce them like i said do what they want to do in there private lives anytime you do something in public you put yourself up to be scrutinized by any number of people I'm bald or I'm fat or I'm drunk they have nothing compared to what the black people or native Americans endured

So it is ok for you to kiss your girlfriend in public, but two men kissing is open to ridicule? By kissing your girl in public you are demanding that they accept your way of life, because you don't care if they like it or not, you are going to do it. Just because it may be normal to more people doesn't make it any less demanding.

 

[Sinomatic]

There is a religious culture...actual reproducing culture that is not as tolerant on the whole as Christians. They are going to lay the wood to this liberal cluster at some point because they reproduce at a clip of 5 to 1.

I honestly cannot believe it has got to where it's at now, but you guys on the left, your ideology is doomed.

And it will be us Christians who are persecuted to the ends of the earth and it won't be just for refusing to promote a way of life God does not want us to promote.

"You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?"
Romans 2:22

- Back in the day people would rob temples of their idols, and then sell them on the market to the practitioners of that religion.

Basically us Christians should not promote a way of life that is contrary to God's design....we cannot testify that idols are a lie and then rob temples so to speak and then sell the idols to others who think they are truth.

If some of you guys can't handle a Christian baker not putting "Happily ever after Pat and Stan" on a cake, then what are you going to do when you are pitifully out numbered by a fundamental religion that straight out kills you if you are gay?

Better let go of abortion....quickly.

 

[timnsun]

In candor, this is news to me, but far from evidence that the attorney requested the explicit designs. The line is "Phillips believes that some of those requests came from the same Colorado lawyer."

Maybe it is, maybe it isn't from the attorney - but I'm not surprised that the baker is now getting prank requests.

Anyway, I don't hate Ron Brown. I think he made a serious mistake by lobbying against same sex rights when he used his role as a coach of young men by listing his Nebraska Athletic Department address. I hope he learned from the mistake and I believe that Scott Frost and the entire coaching staff places high importance on being inclusive based on what I've read from his policy to his team.

I think the baker should have made the cake. I don't think the Supreme Court ruled that it's OK to do so - instead, I think their decision was based on the narrow decision in THIS situation.

This topic has run its course.

Fair enough. I just wanted to set the record straight that I wasn’t making things up.

And yes, this topic has run its course.

 

[Huskerfan2112]

So whats the next litmus test on hiring? If I dont like a coaches views on abortion, guns, capital punishment or global warming, should they be fired too? Do we need equal democrats and republicans on staff? Why are there no women or trans coaches?

Frost dips, Verduzco walks around with a stogie. I am OUTRAGED at that. They clearly cant represent the university since the support big tobacco!!!!

Maybe you people who are against Brown have a different issue with him than his political views. Are you racist? Maybe you should be removed from this board for it. See how easy it is to label people?

Its football people. Not everything has to be politics. Quit being offended at the prospect of someone thinking differently than you do.

 

[Baxter48]

So it is ok for you to kiss your girlfriend in public, but two men kissing is open to ridicule? By kissing your girl in public you are demanding that they accept your way of life, because you don't care if they like it or not, you are going to do it. Just because it may be normal to more people doesn't make it any less demanding.

I guess I'm a private person only time I kissed my wife in public was on our wedding inside the church

 

[Baxter48]

So whats the next litmus test on hiring? If I dont like a coaches views on abortion, guns, capital punishment or global warming, should they be fired too? Do we need equal democrats and republicans on staff? Why are there no women or trans coaches?

Frost dips, Verduzco walks around with a stogie. I am OUTRAGED at that. They clearly cant represent the university since the support big tobacco!!!!

Maybe you people who are against Brown have a different issue with him than his political views. Are you racist? Maybe you should be removed from this board for it. See how easy it is to label people?

Its football people. Not everything has to be politics. Quit being offended at the prospect of someone thinking differently than you do.

Agree 100% great post!!!!