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Global Warming

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You don't. Which is why Mars is so fridgid. Earth's average temperature would be near 0°F (or -18°C) instead of the much warmer 59°F (15°C) without them.
I'm going to try to say this as polite as possible but your post from posts aren't making any sense because you're contradicting yourself. So are you now saying you could have a cold climated greenhouse effect that can cause an over 90% Co2 atmosphere? Isn't there a certain order of processes? The volcanoes in Mars had to have caused a warm environment to cause a greenhouse effect which led to the burning off of the water then they'd lose their atmosphere. Not the other way around
 
You seem to think that Albert Einstein's theories are complete sciences on their own, but they are not. Climate science is a range of science, like physics. Albert's theories were not. Albert's theories were much smaller and helped 'to form' a science. Huge difference.

is it science or not? you're creating distinctions where there are none. the underlying physics of the original global warming theory was pretty simple -- do certain gasses help hold in solar energy which will cause things to heat up or not?

Scientists are not oracles. by definition, they are supposed to work with fact, not supposition. and the reason their climate models have sucked (to put it mildly) is they have too many variables to take into account to do computer modeling with current methodology. throw in the fact that weather/climate isn't static and there's just too much there -- for now.

what's that mean? that "science being settled" is bull s---. for all you know a form of plant will evolve tomorrow (edit: or be genetically engineered) that uses up carbon faster than current plants and will help rebalance this planet. you simply don't know. there are simply too many variables under current methodologies. which is another way to put "the science of global warming isn't settled".

listen, i'm fully aware just how hard it is to explain macro problems to people who live in a micro state. i don't care if it's economics, science, or politics -- people can only see what's in front of them unless you can put it in terms they can understand.

and the simple fact is, 40 years of talking really loud has got you... what? people are still saying you make no sense and not all of them are religious zealots (i'm personally completely anti religion, including when it's science as the religion). maybe you should listen and change the dialogue instead of being so hardheaded.
 
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Holy crap I'm reading the up-to-date information and it makes no sense. In all honesty I've been debating these points without even looking at this new science which makes zero sense at all
 
Holy crap now I know where you got the information from I just read the NASA page and you almost took it from verbatim now I know they're crazy. I know Flying Pig martians took their atmosphere and the CO2 and caused everything to go wrong on Mars
 
I'm going to try to say this as polite as possible but your post from posts aren't making any sense because you're contradicting yourself. So are you now saying you could have a cold climated greenhouse effect that can cause an over 90% Co2 atmosphere? Isn't there a certain order of processes? The volcanoes in Mars had to have caused a warm environment to cause a greenhouse effect which led to the burning off of the water then they'd lose their atmosphere. Not the other way around

Volcanoes? No. Mars use to have a thick atmosphere a long, long time ago. But the planet lost it's protective layer (magnetic field) which allowed the solar radiation to strip it's atmosphere over time.

So are you now saying you could have a cold climated greenhouse effect that can cause an over 90% Co2 atmosphere? - WTH is this? I went back and looked, saw nothing of this. I am not even sure how to respond... I said the cooling effect had to do with the stripping of the atmosphere. The concentration of CO2 is large, but the size of atmosphere is incredibly tiny which makes CO2 (in conjunction of other greenhouse gasses) almost negligible in totality and influence.
 
I'm going to edit all my voice to text later not now. this is craziness.
 
Holy crap now I know where you got the information from I just read the NASA page and you almost took it from verbatim now I know they're crazy. I know Flying Pig martians took their atmosphere and the CO2 and caused everything to go wrong on Mars

I read from many sources including NASA, NOAA, Science Daily (as a fun-based journal site for non-peer reviewed information, not actual facts). No offense, but it's very clear that you have a long ways to go before you will understand any of this information. Not that it's bad to be in your state of understanding, but what you need to work on is your mud-slinging, know-it-all approach when you know next to nothing.
 
You don't. Which is why Mars is so fridgid. Earth's average temperature would be near 0°F (or -18°C) instead of the much warmer 59°F (15°C) without them.
If you're saying solar winds played a major contributing factor in them losing their water than these two posts don't Jive.
 
Wrong.

Climate science is about defining the constants and observing the natural behavior and responses in different environments. Climatology will go deep into particle, chemical and geographical physics to establish it's own constants of cause and effect. With these constants it will do it's best to define the behaviors of the hadley cells, the kinetic energy traversing across the globe from warm to cold (and vice versa) areas (winds, ocean currents). It is like how biology will use these same categories to establish constants and it's patterns in nature.

Weather is a state. Weather men should always be allowed a range of right/wrong as our incompleteness of knowing where all particles in the solar system are and the incomplete climate science makes it (weather) very, very difficult to project. In fact, weathermen and the models are generally pretty solid at projecting outcomes using these constants despite all of this. They are going by averages and understood behaviors. So there is always more to the story, like with all sciences.

That doesn't mean that we should throw away what we know because of this, like you seem to be indirectly suggesting. We know how the human heart works in a very incomplete way, but we know enough about it to (imperfectly) perform surgery, if needed. You won't tell a heart surgeon to back off from your chest because he doesn't know everything about all there is to know about the heart and it's properties, right?

Same goes for greenhouse gasses. We know through direct observations and paleo-records what happens when the amount of greenhouse gasses are given an increased concentration. Greenhouses that are supplied carbon dioxide see a drastic increase in temperature. It is known that carbon dioxide's radiative forcing is 1.7 versus water vapor's .02 meaning it is a full 85x more powerful. However it isn't just CO2 that we are concerned about. The public barely mentions nitrous oxide, surface ozone, methane which all are 100-2000x the radiative forcing of CO2 (and a bunch of other chemicals) that have seen even steeper increases. We also know that some particles reflect sunlight which would cool the earth, like many dust particles. All particles have an effect on the overall radiative forcing on the earth.

We know these facts to be as true (as true can be) in physical science. The physics have been tried countless times from lab observations, the data collecting from sites around the world using placebo tests. So we aren't going to just say those tests are not real because we don't know everything there is to know.

I could literally right a thesis on what is wrong with your statements. It's crazy that someone who admits they know nothing about the subject will basically call out scientists as being idiots. My .......

And this one.
 
If you're saying solar winds played a major contributing factor in them losing their water than these two posts don't Jive.

Why not? Did you not read my post about sublimation threshold on the planet being much lower given the lack of gravity and atmospheric pressures? And how those same two properties make it too week for water to sustain in the atmosphere? The stripping of the atmophere is just one part of why.
 
As much as we want to think research is apolitcal, it takes money for research. And research can be , and is,influenced by that money.

This is offensive to me!!
Researchers are overwhelmingly not hypocrites like most politicians. To be hypocritical in the research arena would be suicide, in terms of credibility.
If you want the truth..... it seems you don't.... talk to a researcher. I recommend RealClimate. Check it out.
 
I read from many sources including NASA, NOAA, Science Daily (as a fun-based journal site for non-peer reviewed information, not actual facts). No offense, but it's very clear that you have a long ways to go before you will understand any of this information. Not that it's bad to be in your state of understanding, but what you need to work on is your mud-slinging, know-it-all approach when you know next to nothing.

I'm not stupid enough to believe that bs. I got a better idea the tooth fairy took their water that's where it went
 
All for the money making scheme of man-made global warming... solar winds! What a load of crap! RollingLaugh
 
I'm not stupid enough to believe that bs. I got a better idea the tooth fairy took their water that's where it went

So you believe that science is hokus pokus? That's what the world believed during the dark ages by church-states and priests when scientists were put to death for stating facts and theories. The resistance to science by dogma is what led to many deaths, it is what is leading to today's anti-science stance and your very odd statements. Science isn't ever going to be 100%, but it certain has led to everything you see around you. But I am sure today's faith leaders somehow are giving credit to the sky beasts or something goofy like that.
 
Please state what your credentials are so I can evaluate your expertise here.

i seriously facepalm whenever i see someone say something like this. If you can't answer the question, attacking isn't the answer. some of the best scientific questions are asked by children and they obviously don't have any credentials whatsoever.

asking for someone's credentials in an argument as an excuse to discredit them is similar to saying "you can't cook well simply because you didn't go to school". don't tell grandma that.
 
So you believe that science is hokus pokus? That's what the world believed during the dark ages by church-states and priests when scientists were put to death for stating facts and theories. The resistance to science by dogma is what led to many deaths, it is what is leading to today's anti-science stance and your very odd statements. Science isn't ever going to be 100%, but it certain has led to everything you see around you. But I am sure today's faith leaders somehow are giving credit to the sky beasts or something goofy like that.

It's not Hocus Pocus, it's social engineering what's going on here. All to destroy the free market based economy and turn us into a European Socialist country. Then it's open boarders and the United Nation's and their Socialist/Communist comrades will rule the world.

Solar winds????? Oh my lord!
 
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If the solar wind argument doesn't make you run from the man made global warming crowd then enjoy your little red book comrades.
 
It's not Hocus Pocus, it's social engineering what's going on here. All to destroy the free market based economy and turn us into a European Socialist country. Then it's open boarders and the United Nation's and their Socialist/Communist comrades will rule the world.

Solar winds????? Oh my lord!

Sure. Okay. World domination. Got it. Because there is no possibility of the anti-science as being funded by energy companies (same as dark ages and tobacco industry misinformation) or anything.
 
Sure. Okay. World domination. Got it. Because there is no possibility of the anti-science as being funded by energy companies (same as dark ages and tobacco industry misinformation) or anything.

Which one is big government funding or grows government more? which one allows for more control?
 
http://www.universetoday.com/106297/mavens-quest-where-did-mars-water-go/

Well here you go here's an old article from 2013. It starts off talking exactly about a warm environment without using the word Greenhouse. But then it talks about equipment loaded for testing the solar winds. And this is exactly the BS that I was talking about two pages earlier they were looking for data to back up what they wanted.
 
Right now. I don't care. I am talking science.

fair enough. although the reason that this is such a big issue is more political than otherwise. like i said i don't care -- and the main reason i don't is that politics is the bane of my existence. if the budget was balanced i'd approve research on damn near anything -- in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal to me.
 
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http://www.universetoday.com/106297/mavens-quest-where-did-mars-water-go/

Well here you go here's an old article from 2013. It starts off talking exactly about a warm environment without using the word Greenhouse. But then it talks about equipment loaded for testing the solar winds. And this is exactly the BS that I was talking about two pages earlier they were looking for data to back up what they wanted.

You didnt see the point in the article where it states the parts would reach mars in September of 2014. Almost two years have been passed since their arrival.

Not a relevant article to the conversation.
 
The Solar wind theory ISN'T true science. Having your conclusion before you analysis one piece of data ISN'T SCIENCE!
 
You didnt see the point in the article where it states the parts would reach mars in September of 2014. Almost two years have been passed since their arrival.

Not a relevant article to the conversation.

How can you say that as a scientist???
 
Their conclusion that it was solar wind is faulty and my article proves it they went looking for the data that they wanted.
 
Is that what happened? Or are you simply guessing?
The damn article literally spells it out. It talks about 6 pieces of specific solar wind equipment. And lo and behold it was the solar winds that caused it. How can you as a scientist defend that by NASA?
 
How can you say that as a scientist???

I can end this pointless, odd, factless troll of yours by simpling admitting that I am a lying, European solicialist that hates jesus and america.

You haven't posted a single point that holds any facts. Seriously seems like you are in this to only troll and that I've bitten quite hard on it.

The fact that ive continued arguing with you for this long surprises and dissapoints me. I have got to hand it to you..
 
Cuz they sure in the hell wasn't going to say global warming caused by a greenhouse effect caused the water to disappear.

I can't believe your calling that true data collection and a sound scientific theory?
 
Their conclusion that it was solar wind is faulty and my article proves it they went looking for the data that they wanted.

Are you familiar with the basic tenet of science known as hypothesis testing?

Solar wind is an established phenomenon which these particular scientists thought was a plausible explanation for the loss of water on Mars. They tested this hypothesis by sending equipment capable of collecting data related to the topic.

This does not mean they were biased and guaranteed to find evidence in support of their idea. Scientists find evidence contrary to their hypotheses ALL THE TIME. That's what leads to new ideas and new hypotheses.

It seems like you think science involves collecting a bunch of data and then throwing possible patterns at it until something lines up nicely. That's something akin to exploratory research, which is very inefficient and generally reserved for topics where we don't have useful hypotheses to test.
 
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Are you familiar with the basic tenet of science known as hypothesis testing?

Solar wind is an established phenomenon which these particular scientists thought was a plausible explanation for the loss of water on Mars. They tested this hypothesis by sending equipment capable of collecting data related to the topic.

This does not mean they were biased and guaranteed to find evidence in support of their idea. Scientists find evidence contrary to their hypotheses ALL THE TIME. That's what leads to new ideas and new hypotheses.

It seems like you think science involves collecting a bunch of data and then throwing possible patterns at it until something lines up nicely. That's something akin to exploratory research, which is very inefficient and generally reserved for topics where we don't have useful hypotheses to test.

Isn't is the sight bit interesting that the word Greenhouse wasn't used in that article? Even though the setup in the first few paragraphs could of used the word multiple times?
 
Here's my theory on Mars...
Massive volcanoes blanketed the planet which caused a greenhouse effect. The oceans along with rising temperatures caused the greenhouse effect to compound and evaporate the water. After the water was almost gone and the volcanoes subsided the atmosphere became almost completely Co2 which had no other way recycle itself except through loss in space. The atmosphere thinned and solar winds and other cosmic effects began to blanket Mars. Which allowed the surface temperature to drop even though an atmosphere of complete carbon was present. These effects have left a cold barren wasteland saturated in Co2 and void of any significant atmosphere.
 
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No reason for me to participate in this thread any more.

Some posters were saying that the "scientists do agree", so I decided to look. There could be a few or a lot of climatologist opinion polls, I just looked at the results from a couple. The majority agreed that humans are playing a significant role (or is it roll?, ah who cares), I'll just call it around 90% agreed. So, I'll accept that, they're the experts not me.

I just noticed an error on what I typed. 'Well, Earth's contribution isn't a constant as you have correctly surmised. But it generally is below the saturation level' I meant to say absorption instead of saturation. You probably understood that though.
 
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