I agree. I don’t think it is any accident that our improved play in our last three games coincided with a much improved offensive line. I hope that curve continues on to next year.
An honest question in search of a real answer
- Thread starter Pennsyhusker
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https://www.foxsports.com/college-football/adrian-martinez-2-player-stats
This has a lot of his stats. The biggest drop seems to be in passing. Rushing stats are almost identical to last year.
2018 completion 64.6%
2019 59.4%
2018 yrds per game 237.9
2019 195.6
2018 17 tds
2019 10 tds
2018 pass attempts 347
2019 251
2018 QBR 139.5 50th in the country
2019 130.8 76th in the country
All other stats seem to be pretty similar to last year. Including Ints, sacks, yrds lost.
So there is no doubt he took a steps backward. Maybe not as horrible as we all think. I do think it was a combination of last year he was a true freshman, nobody expected him to be that great. This year he was 3rd in line for the heisman preseason.
This has a lot of his stats. The biggest drop seems to be in passing. Rushing stats are almost identical to last year.
2018 completion 64.6%
2019 59.4%
2018 yrds per game 237.9
2019 195.6
2018 17 tds
2019 10 tds
2018 pass attempts 347
2019 251
2018 QBR 139.5 50th in the country
2019 130.8 76th in the country
All other stats seem to be pretty similar to last year. Including Ints, sacks, yrds lost.
So there is no doubt he took a steps backward. Maybe not as horrible as we all think. I do think it was a combination of last year he was a true freshman, nobody expected him to be that great. This year he was 3rd in line for the heisman preseason.
I will throw this out there for discussion sake because that's what we're doing.
I have a friend who is a Creighton Physical Therapy grad that works in Sioux City area. On the way up to the Wisconsin game he talked about how much weight Adrian put on in the off-season. He says it was too much, too fast.
From a physiology standpoint, quarterbacking is muscle memory. When you gain that much weight, you have drastically changed your throwing because of your gains in the weight room. His completion percentage is down from last year, he looks like as Tuco pointed out that he can't dial in shorter throws, misses wide open targets on deep and intermediate throws. Again, just speculative but it is interesting to hear this from a physician who works mostly with muscle rehab and knows what he's talking about from a motion perspective. He basically said that while the motion is the same, the outcome is different because of his changes in the offseason; he said it takes thousands upon thousands of repetitions to gain back the comfort level/muscle memory with the body changes.
Right or wrong, who knows?? Interesting food for thought
I have a friend who is a Creighton Physical Therapy grad that works in Sioux City area. On the way up to the Wisconsin game he talked about how much weight Adrian put on in the off-season. He says it was too much, too fast.
From a physiology standpoint, quarterbacking is muscle memory. When you gain that much weight, you have drastically changed your throwing because of your gains in the weight room. His completion percentage is down from last year, he looks like as Tuco pointed out that he can't dial in shorter throws, misses wide open targets on deep and intermediate throws. Again, just speculative but it is interesting to hear this from a physician who works mostly with muscle rehab and knows what he's talking about from a motion perspective. He basically said that while the motion is the same, the outcome is different because of his changes in the offseason; he said it takes thousands upon thousands of repetitions to gain back the comfort level/muscle memory with the body changes.
Right or wrong, who knows?? Interesting food for thought
We did see evidence of it. He was slow, was wearing knee brace, didn't want to take hits, was horrible and missed on many of his throws. Just playing piss poor in general. If he is battling any kind of injury he isn't going to look good mentally or physically. Not saying injury was the reason for his regression, but saying their is no evidence isn't true. Frost even came out and said, "Adrian hasn't been 100% most of the year, and has been dinged up"
Does any remember is the knee he hurt this year the same one that dip shit CU player messed up last year?
This is great. Thanks for doing this. It confirms in my mind:
1. He was indeed not as good as last year ... and
2. But not as much as some people are claiming.
And with regard to point number 2, we need to remember that the drop in his passing statistics may not have been entirely his fault.
Interesting. Makes me think of Brady Quinn. Anyone remember when he got huge after he left ND and the couldn't hit the broad side of a barn anymore?
Indecision and lack of accuracy, locking on to one receiver most times, appears to not be a fast blinker (running out of bounds on 2nd and 20 that stopped clock instead of forcing iowa to use their last timeout)
That makes sense. You pack on 30-40 lbs of muscle is 9 months, it has to throw of your mechanics. I would pray our staff who is getting paid millions would realize this but never know.
My wife is a ND grad. I remember it all too well. (I have to pretend I like ND. Ugh)
Even just factoring the 7 less tds he threw. That is 42 pts 49 if you factor in the pat. That breaks down to almost 4 less points per game. You add 4 more points on to every score. Thats huge. We probably beat CU, Indiana, and Purdue. If we were sitting at 7-5 or 8-4, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Not running out of bounds in that situation reminds of the Illinois game where Armstrong, instead of running to burn the last minute of the game, decided to throw it, landing incomplete. Illinois, just like Iowa, then drove the field and scored for the win.
Clock management in close games is a huge part of what a good QB does.
My wife has deep ND ties too, so I'm in the same boat. Been to several games there since we've been married, 2017 USC game the most recent.
He also threw 100 less passes. Which was probably for the best, honestly.
No, he wasn't damn good. He was average at best this year and I think he was hurt all season.
Martinez wasn't right after the CU game. You will have to hook up the chains and drag me off the belief that he had a nagging injury to his throwing arm/shoulder. He not only didn't throw accurately all year, he couldn't throw accurately.
The proof is in those swing passes we discussed so much. Touch ball, needs to be fast, needs to be very accurate. Guys love it or hate it that is a STAPLE of this offense and if you can't hit it you (theoretically) can't play QB for Scott Frost.
You hit the guy on the swing in stride going forward the play sets up and you're moving chains. You throw a "zip code" ball where it's not in the bucket but it's near him, the play gets blown up because he has to adjust to the ball. Vedral came in there and dropped one right on. Martinez could not do it.
We saw him be a very good passer last year and this year he looked like any forgettable 1980s Nebraska backup QB who couldn't throw it in the ocean if you stood him in a boat.
Everything about the way he played smacked of a hurt kid who was afraid of getting hurt worse. Frost and Crouch used to weaponize that right shoulder, if they were coming into contact you were gonna catch that shoulder. Adrian ALWAYS makes another outside bounce cut toward the sidelines when he's facing contact. He's scared of contact. He will happily sacrifice the extra yards if he can make a move that takes some sting off the hit.
Don't forget his fumble issues early in the year, that says to me that arm is weakened and his ability to clutch a football is diminished due to something other than how muscular his arms are.
He wasn't horrible but he wasn't good. Here are his stats for the year:
59.4% completions
10 TDs
9 INTs
7.8 YPC
That's not good enough. With the game on the line and a chance to score the winning TD, Frost obviously didn't trust him to throw for a win. Case closed.
Their hands were tied with Vedral getting banged up and McCaffrey getting banged up plus trying to RS him. They didn't have a QB available who was healthy and talented enough to go do it any better. They won't have that problem next year.
Hopefully Adrian comes back healthy and sharp next year because if he doesn't the fans will have zero patience for not seeing Luke.
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IMO, the last play (or second down, I guess) against Iowa says what you need to know. As he neared the sideline, 50 or whatever yards where we had to get to set up a field goal given our kicking situation and its going to be 3rd and 20 or something like that and under a minute to go, there wasn't at that time any coverage scheme to dissect, no read option to decipher and no other adjustment to make. At that time, in the heat of the moment, he did not have the mental poise to say to himself, we are playing for OT so stay in bounds, make Iowa use its last timeout and get to OT without giving them any reasonable time with no TO's to drive into field goal range. He's 19, but he's been playing quarterback for how many years of his life? No way should Frost have had to call a time out to explain to him don't throw the ball unless its a sure catch and do not go out of bounds. That's a decision probably most high school kids could make without needing the coach to have called timeout to remind them before hand.
He is a really good public speaker. He shows great poise in the interviews, is humble, answers the questions and takes ownership of things that didn't go well. All great personal traits. But, on the field, in the heat of battle, he just seems to me to lack the kind of understanding of all aspects of the game and decision making under stress that you have to have from your quarterback.
He is a really good public speaker. He shows great poise in the interviews, is humble, answers the questions and takes ownership of things that didn't go well. All great personal traits. But, on the field, in the heat of battle, he just seems to me to lack the kind of understanding of all aspects of the game and decision making under stress that you have to have from your quarterback.
I agree with otis in that you just have to use your eyes when it comes to running.
He was not as fast as last year. He avoided contact. I thought maybe it could have been a groin injury that was slowing him down. But who knows.
We all seen the assault knee injury happen last year and know of his shoulder from high school. Plus he did look bigger, so he's using the weight room....he just looked slow running the ball.
I seen him grab at his shoulder after being forced out of bounds, but I forget which game that was.
He was not as fast as last year. He avoided contact. I thought maybe it could have been a groin injury that was slowing him down. But who knows.
We all seen the assault knee injury happen last year and know of his shoulder from high school. Plus he did look bigger, so he's using the weight room....he just looked slow running the ball.
I seen him grab at his shoulder after being forced out of bounds, but I forget which game that was.
After the first game, frost said something to the effect of overloading Martinez with too much playbook. Later in the year he made a comment about knowing what it's like being the most hated person in nebraska. Both of those statements point to a mental/emotional issue causing the lack of production. I thought it was obvious right out of the gate that Martinez had developed a coaches mindset and it was affecting his competitive instincts. I don't recall seeing any bad passes that would be attributed to a shoulder problem but I remember a lot of them where he missed somebody running wide open in favor of someone who was covered. He also didn't seem significantly slower when he ran the ball compared to last year, he just took longer to make the decision.
I hate that he struggled this year because you couldn't ask for a better face of the program. Class kid, ALWAYS says the right thing, came in here when he had a lot of options to turn a program around. You couldn't ask for anything more in terms of his personal conduct.
I was frankly never that high on Martinez as a passer, but last year he looked like a guy whose throwing ability was serviceable enough to complement his play-making as a mobile QB. Didn't see him as a Heisman contender, but he sure looked like a QB around whom Frost could build an offense.
This year he just seemed to take a step back in all phases of the game. Maybe that was due to the O-line being even more porous, or from the loss of Ozigbo and Morgan. But except for a couple of strong halves (Colorado, Illinois), he just didn't look like the same player.
As for benching Martinez, I don't think Frost felt he had any better options available. That could change this spring, however.
This year he just seemed to take a step back in all phases of the game. Maybe that was due to the O-line being even more porous, or from the loss of Ozigbo and Morgan. But except for a couple of strong halves (Colorado, Illinois), he just didn't look like the same player.
As for benching Martinez, I don't think Frost felt he had any better options available. That could change this spring, however.
I think this is a good observation. We have no idea the extent of the injury situation or other factors with other choices.
I think this nails it. I think he was injured. It explains almost everything
I don't know that you can truly say Like is better. He has done well on the field in very controlled situations with plays specifically designed for him. Not defending AM, just saying I think we are comparing apples and oranges.
I don’t think that is the case. I believe Frost is more focused on years 3 and 4 than he was year 2. If you believe the eyewitness reports, tweets and conversations, there were better options at other positions but he was intent on redshirting players. I think McCaffery fell into this category. So I believe he had other options, he just chose to keep redshirts rather than play the potentially better options.
Beyond the swing passes and beyond how much slower he runs and how hesitant he is in decision making, when he has time and throws downfield hes overthrowing receivers (by a lot) and he was throwing passes over receivers heads or at their feet in the mid range pass game all year. He was just bad...
And stats without context are utterly worthless. So what you're calling "subjective" are essential to making any valid assessment of his play.
Here is what I would like to see from the kid for next season. He has to get better at throwing over the middle, specifically the seem routes. He is late and high with a lot of these throws. He missed some big one as the season went on and the ones he did complete were boarder line inhumane to JD and Stoll. The amount of punishment that JD took in that Illinois game was insane.
Accuracy has to improve as well. You have to put the ball in spots where your receivers and TE's can catch it and get some RAC. You see the out routes being caught on the back hip too much where the momentum of the receiver is just killed allowing DB's and LB's to close down on the play.
Everything is fixable, but Coach V has his work cut out for him in the next 9 months.
Accuracy has to improve as well. You have to put the ball in spots where your receivers and TE's can catch it and get some RAC. You see the out routes being caught on the back hip too much where the momentum of the receiver is just killed allowing DB's and LB's to close down on the play.
Everything is fixable, but Coach V has his work cut out for him in the next 9 months.
That's true, in August Frost seemed pretty torn on whether or not to go through with the plan to redshirt McCaffrey. If he had that one to do over again, he might choose differently.
Do WE give a S%$#^t about 45,000000 dollar demons ? 45,000000 dollars
in round numbers
I just hope they make Luke McCaffrey next year's QB. Somebody (I think it was Pennsyhusker) said that AM can fill in as a #1 receiver.
Adrian Martinez knows the playbook by now very well. You could platoon them early next season.
I bet AM would be a better bet to be a possession wide receiver if he moves to WR. Jaylen Waddle is an example of a legit #1 wide receiver, and we had an example of Waddle 700 years ago way back in the Stone Age when a flanker/wingback named Irving Fryar played for NU. (Showing my age by listing Fryar there.)
I guess the closest thing to a Fryar here in Lincoln recently is De'Mornay Pierson-El.
And since I touched the recruiting topic, I hope we can find another De'Mornay Pierson-El. That sure would help out next year's signal caller whether its Vedral, McCaffrey, or Martinez. Best of luck on this topic for Coach Frost and Co.
Adrian Martinez knows the playbook by now very well. You could platoon them early next season.
I bet AM would be a better bet to be a possession wide receiver if he moves to WR. Jaylen Waddle is an example of a legit #1 wide receiver, and we had an example of Waddle 700 years ago way back in the Stone Age when a flanker/wingback named Irving Fryar played for NU. (Showing my age by listing Fryar there.)
I guess the closest thing to a Fryar here in Lincoln recently is De'Mornay Pierson-El.
And since I touched the recruiting topic, I hope we can find another De'Mornay Pierson-El. That sure would help out next year's signal caller whether its Vedral, McCaffrey, or Martinez. Best of luck on this topic for Coach Frost and Co.
I know you didn't ask me, but:
- Reluctance to run when the opportunity presents itself. When he did run, he was noticeably slower, even when fully healthy.
- Inaccurate passing
- Bad receiving talent, could not get open (not his fault)
The AM lapse is multi-faceted. The OL issues this year, the lack of open WRs (that will be fixed, I can about guarantee), the play calling, the slow reaction time with AM that we didn’t see last year. Many things I bet are going on that we may never know the details of. But clearly there are issues.
But here’s what my eyes tell me....remember the spring game 2 years ago when AM was an incoming freshman? His reflexes were quick and his feet were blazing fast, and his throws accurate and in perfect form. From a kid no less that just graduated from HS months earlier. After one TD he did a somersault, could he do that now? Last season is why he got the Heisman hype this year, and it probably was deserved. Last year because of the leg injury he suffered during the Colorado game he has never been nearly as fast. What a messed-up start to his collegiate football career, sad as hell. And of course he wore the knee brace for much of the season.
Then this year he came out overweight, slow, and tentative with his decision making. Again, there are details we may never know about. Man i sure hope he pulls it all together in the off season, because we will need more than good QB next year. The kid has great potential. Frost I hope starts the best QB available. Frost cannot afford to make dumb decisions from here on out.
But here’s what my eyes tell me....remember the spring game 2 years ago when AM was an incoming freshman? His reflexes were quick and his feet were blazing fast, and his throws accurate and in perfect form. From a kid no less that just graduated from HS months earlier. After one TD he did a somersault, could he do that now? Last season is why he got the Heisman hype this year, and it probably was deserved. Last year because of the leg injury he suffered during the Colorado game he has never been nearly as fast. What a messed-up start to his collegiate football career, sad as hell. And of course he wore the knee brace for much of the season.
Then this year he came out overweight, slow, and tentative with his decision making. Again, there are details we may never know about. Man i sure hope he pulls it all together in the off season, because we will need more than good QB next year. The kid has great potential. Frost I hope starts the best QB available. Frost cannot afford to make dumb decisions from here on out.
He presumably doesn’t (and in any case I don’t) think they are ‘made up.’ One can make educated guesses about the dip in AM’s performance and that doesn’t make the reasons presented false. They may be ‘made up’ in the sense of being conjectural but not in the sense that they are necessarily unreasonable or have no evidence in their favor. That is what the OP was looking for—reasons for the dip in AM’s performance—not simply stats which verify there has indeed been a dip.
