An honest question in search of a real answer

[Pennsyhusker]

I have been very critical on here about the play of Martinez. I defended him early in the year, but got frustrated with his play more and more, until I finally joined the ranks of his critics. I was even one of the mob calling for Martinez to be benched in favor of Luke.

There is no doubt he did not live up to our inflated expectations this year. There is no doubt he seemed slower and more tentative.

But here is the multi part, “honest question” (and I really do want solid, evidence based answers, not emotions): is it actually true that he had a lousy year? Is it actually true that our offensive problems this year were mostly his fault? Is it true that he was so bad that he deserved to be benched? What are his stats? Are we being unfair in criticizing him? Was he actually a damn good QB who was simply a victim of being over hyped?

 

[Baxter48]

I have been very critical on here about the play of Martinez. I defended him early in the year, but got frustrated with his play more and more, until I finally joined the ranks of his critics. I was even one of the mob calling for Martinez to be benched in favor of Luke.

There is no doubt he did not live up to our inflated expectations this year. There is no doubt he seemed slower and more tentative.

But here is the multi part, “honest question” (and I really do want solid, evidence based answers, not emotions): is it actually true that he had a lousy year? Is it actually true that our offensive problems this year were mostly his fault? Is it true that he was so bad that he deserved to be benched? What are his stats? Are we being unfair in criticizing him? Was he actually a damn good QB who was simply a victim of being over hyped?

I’ll say 45% over hyped and 55% the rest imo Adrian has some inner demons he’s dealing with

 

[Pennsyhusker]

I’ll say 45% over hyped and 55% the rest imo Adrian has some inner demons he’s dealing with

But what do you specifically identify as his greatest weaknesses this year in his performance?

 

[dand84]

I don't think you will find your answer in stats. I also don't know the extend of his injury situation. I think part of it is piss poor oline and snaps early in the year. We also lost major weapons at RB and Receiver, especially early in the year.

My judgement is based purely on watching what I will consider "I want to win" factor. Think back to Frost or Tommie running the ball when they played. Then thing about AM. Does AM sell out to get that 1st down or just take a step out of bounds? Does AM lay down a block that might spring a runner on a trick play? Is he afraid of contact?

For passing, what does his judgement tell you? How well does he scan the field and find the correct decision? How well does he sense pressure and respond to it? How well does he avoid making mistakes with bad throws?

I'm avoid talking about his mechanics because he might have some injuries. I'm also avoid a lot of the stats arguments because of a serious lack of weapons at receiver. So I'm focusing solely on what I think of as his decision making, response speed, and his "want to win". I'm not trying to question his character, just that thing that makes Frost lay out a guy blocking down field for his RB teammate or Tommie refusing to go down and making team gang tackle him.

 

[BroskiRed]

I have been very critical on here about the play of Martinez. I defended him early in the year, but got frustrated with his play more and more, until I finally joined the ranks of his critics. I was even one of the mob calling for Martinez to be benched in favor of Luke.

There is no doubt he did not live up to our inflated expectations this year. There is no doubt he seemed slower and more tentative.

But here is the multi part, “honest question” (and I really do want solid, evidence based answers, not emotions): is it actually true that he had a lousy year? Is it actually true that our offensive problems this year were mostly his fault? Is it true that he was so bad that he deserved to be benched? What are his stats? Are we being unfair in criticizing him? Was he actually a damn good QB who was simply a victim of being over hyped?

Did you see any of the Houston/New England game last night Pennsy?
Tom Brady was getting wrecked, looking indecisive, receivers not getting open or getting separation
It looked a lot like Martinez this year. we heard all year from Frost about the lack of production at the WR position. “Guys not being where they’re supposed to be...”
There’s something to that, however I’ve been at games and Adrian isn’t hitting guys, but if it’s not consistent through the week it won’t be consistent on Saturdays
Criticism is deserved, however, it’s part of a larger discussion
It’s on Frost to get everything around Adrian right and also the QB position

 

[9and4]

I think we saw from Luke this year what we saw in Adrian last year: athleticism, decisiveness and playing to his strengths. In short, he was a willing pupil, and the coaches didn't give him more than he could handle as a first-year player, the same that they did with Luke this year.

Adrian, however, was given more of the playbook to work with, and I think it may have been too much. He's clearly an intelligent young man, so that isn't the issue, but he seemed to be unable to process situations at game speed in the way he was last year with a simpler playsheet, or that Luke was able to this year with a limited playsheet.

If Frost wants to run his offense as Osborne did his — not in the formations or plays, but in the ability to execute at a high level — make sure every player on the field can execute every play you ask them to run to their utmost ability. Even make the check-offs simple enough that they can be easily and quickly done, and executed perfectly.

 

[mel mains]

But what do you specifically identify as his greatest weaknesses this year in his performance?

No, let’s be blunt.

B48, specifically identify the demons you see, because that’s one hell of an oft-heard accusation from a complete stranger; and how you see them.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

I think we saw from Luke this year what we saw in Adrian last year: athleticism, decisiveness and playing to his strengths. In short, he was a willing pupil, and the coaches didn't give him more than he could handle as a first-year player, the same that they did with Luke this year.

Adrian, however, was given more of the playbook to work with, and I think it may have been too much. He's clearly an intelligent young man, so that isn't the issue, but he seemed to be unable to process situations at game speed in the way he was last year with a simpler playsheet, or that Luke was able to this year with a limited playsheet.

If Frost wants to run his offense as Osborne did his — not in the formations or plays, but in the ability to execute at a high level — make sure every player on the field can execute every play you ask them to run to their utmost ability. Even make the check-offs simple enough that they can be easily and quickly done, and executed perfectly.

I like this analysis very much. But on the whole how would you rate Martinez this year? Was he as lousy as many say?

 

[WestCoastCornhusker2]

I have been very critical on here about the play of Martinez. I defended him early in the year, but got frustrated with his play more and more, until I finally joined the ranks of his critics. I was even one of the mob calling for Martinez to be benched in favor of Luke.

There is no doubt he did not live up to our inflated expectations this year. There is no doubt he seemed slower and more tentative.

But here is the multi part, “honest question” (and I really do want solid, evidence based answers, not emotions): is it actually true that he had a lousy year? Is it actually true that our offensive problems this year were mostly his fault? Is it true that he was so bad that he deserved to be benched? What are his stats? Are we being unfair in criticizing him? Was he actually a damn good QB who was simply a victim of being over hyped?

I'm convinced Luke is better, but in Adrian's defense, he only looks for 1 WR, no one is getting open and the play calling is bad. I also suspect Mario has overkill analysis causing paralysis by analysis.

 

[otismotis08]

I also don't think you'll see it in the stats. Trust your eyes. He was tentative and slow. I'd have to go back to his freshman year to see if he had the speed I'm remembering. But at no point this year did he look electric. He looked like his gears were full of molasses....mentally and physically.

He seems like a good kid, and I'd really like him to succeed here but this entire year was a major step backwards. Maybe something else was going on behind the scenes (injury, personal issues, etc.). I just don't know.

 

[headcard]

Heading into the Iowa game, Martinez lead the B1G in yards per game. So stats will say, he was not the problem. However, we all saw him struggle in both the running and passing game, compared to last year. For us to be good, AM had to be a dynamic, difference maker and he was not.

My thought is that he had both physical and mental issues throughout the season that hindered his performance. I believe he was playing through multiple injuries all year, I do not know the extent, I know some people do, maybe they can fill us in. I think the poor OL play and poor snaps early in the year and the loss of Stan, also messed with him mentally. We started to see him jump for snaps that weren't high and panic in the pocket, when he had time. I, personally, do not buy the "he was over coached" line of thinking. I don't think he was given too much, I think he didn't trust his OL, didn't trust his WR, didn't trust the snaps, which led to his indecisiveness. I also do not buy the notion that Frost is married to AM and will play him over a better option. I love Luke's athleticism and he seems to have that it factor, but every time he played, he basically only ran option and rollout, one receiver routes. That makes me think he is not yet there as a pocket passer and is still more of an athlete than a QB, at this point. I think he (Luke) has a very high ceiling and I think Mario is a very good QB coach, again I do not buy the paralysis by analysis line of thinking at all, so he may develop and pass AM this off season. Then again, AM may heal up mentally and physically and be the dynamic QB we all thought he was too.

 

[Baxter48]

But what do you specifically identify as his greatest weaknesses this year in his performance?

To me his greatest weakness was two fold one was he didn’t trust his receivers being where they were supposed to be and I believe in the first game south Alabama ran a zone pass defense and he struggled finding the open receivers. I told my wife after that game you watch every team will play zone and bingo they did except maybe Ohio st simple they have so much more talent on defense.

 

[WHCSC]

I have been very critical on here about the play of Martinez. I defended him early in the year, but got frustrated with his play more and more, until I finally joined the ranks of his critics. I was even one of the mob calling for Martinez to be benched in favor of Luke.

There is no doubt he did not live up to our inflated expectations this year. There is no doubt he seemed slower and more tentative.

But here is the multi part, “honest question” (and I really do want solid, evidence based answers, not emotions): is it actually true that he had a lousy year? Is it actually true that our offensive problems this year were mostly his fault? Is it true that he was so bad that he deserved to be benched? What are his stats? Are we being unfair in criticizing him? Was he actually a damn good QB who was simply a victim of being over hyped?

You can look up his stats yourself. The rest is all subjective.

 

[scarletred]

Plan and simple SF plenty of times called bad plays and I also think Mario has him thinking too much..

Something wrong when we can’t find a TE get open in the middle of the field just like Iowa found before the winning FG..

 

[Baxter48]

No, let’s be blunt.

B48, specifically identify the demons you see, because that’s one hell of an oft-heard accusation from a complete stranger; and how you see them.

I’m not making accusations it’s a assumption on my part

 

[Baxter48]

Plan and simple SF plenty of times called bad plays and I also think Mario has him thinking too much..

Something wrong when we can’t find a TE get open in the middle of the field just like Iowa found before the winning FG..

I won’t disagree, except from what I’ve seen from our tight ends is there lazy jmo

 

[Top_Gun_]

he was a C/C+ where we needed an A

 

[Crazyhole]

I don't buy the injury rumor. If he had a shoulder issue or a knee issue, etc we would have seen obvious evidence of it at some point. It was his decision making that stood out all season. As far as how good he was, it kind of reminded me of mike grant: serviceable but not the kind of qb that makes the team better. Last year he made the team better.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

What I saw was an indecisive QB. It didn’t matter if it was keeping the ball on the read option, or being a half second late on a throw, or as I said before not knowing if the coverage was zone or man. The number of times he tried to throw a guy open when the WR was sitting in hole of the zone was concerning. Then count the number of times a pass to a WR or RB in the flat was behind the receiver, it was numerous.

I get the Brady comparison, but last night was the the exception for Brady. Martinez had many of those games this season.

 

[headcard]

I don't buy the injury rumor. If he had a shoulder issue or a knee issue, etc we would have seen obvious evidence of it at some point. It was his decision making that stood out all season. As far as how good he was, it kind of reminded me of mike grant: serviceable but not the kind of qb that makes the team better. Last year he made the team better.

He had braces on both his shoulder and his knee and he looked noticeably slower.

 

[scarletred]

What I saw was an indecisive QB. It didn’t matter if it was keeping the ball on the read option, or being a half second late on a throw, or as I said before not knowing if the coverage was zone or man. The number of times he tried to throw a guy open when the WR was sitting in hole of the zone was concerning. Then count the number of times a pass to a WR or RB in the flat was behind the receiver, it was numerous.

I get the Brady comparison, but last night was the the exception for Brady. Martinez had many of those games this season.

And maybe all that indecisiveness made SF make bad play calls at times... Too this day how do you not get in the end zone from the 3 yard line after a interception bugs the crap out of me...

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

And maybe all that indecisiveness made SF make bad play calls at times... Too this day how do you not get in the end zone from the 3 yard line after a interception bugs the crap out of me...

You’re correct. Without know the play call it is difficult to know if it was execution or a bad call.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

@Tuco Salamanca and @scarletred

I think you both hit on my biggest concern. That he seems way too indecisive this year and has trouble finding the open receiver. Scarlet’s claim that maybe coach Verduzco has him thinking too much might actually also be in perfect synch with Tuco’s claim that Martinez had trouble reading coverages. Maybe last year he trusted his initial gut instincts with regard to reading coverages but this year became indecisive as his coach was in his head causing him to doubt his reads. By then... too late.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

And maybe all that indecisiveness made SF make bad play calls at times... Too this day how do you not get in the end zone from the 3 yard line after a interception bugs the crap out of me...

Those damn swing passes! Tuco nails it too when he points out how many of those passes were behind the receiver. Ugh.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

Did you see any of the Houston/New England game last night Pennsy?
Tom Brady was getting wrecked, looking indecisive, receivers not getting open or getting separation
It looked a lot like Martinez this year. we heard all year from Frost about the lack of production at the WR position. “Guys not being where they’re supposed to be...”
There’s something to that, however I’ve been at games and Adrian isn’t hitting guys, but if it’s not consistent through the week it won’t be consistent on Saturdays
Criticism is deserved, however, it’s part of a larger discussion
It’s on Frost to get everything around Adrian right and also the QB position

This is great. Exactly the sort of caveat I need to see. The initial instinct is to blame the QB. But maybe it isn’t mostly his fault.

 

[BleedRed78]

But what do you specifically identify as his greatest weaknesses this year in his performance?

Zone defense. Should be easy to throw against if the qb can read the field. So idk...his overall awareness or vision? Maybe hes seeing ghosts or something. I think it has to mostly be AM for whatever reason (secret injury or just plain regression). Some of it surely was lack of talent at WR and spotty o line play earlier in the season. But the line cleaned up about as much as can be asked for by seasons end, and WR is what it is until we get some ballers at that position.

Like you I was a defender of AM. Hell, I even had a custom Martinex jersey made heading into this season. But sadly Ive found myself joining the ranks with his critics and have even become open about calling for McCaffrey to be played over him. Id love to see the kid turn it around and succeed...but we just dont see that exude from him the way it seems to from Luke. Either way, I think a fair and open qb competition would be beneficial going into next season. It might actually force AM to improve and retain his starting job, which could in turn help the team.

Maybe if he does give him 3-4 games to prove it. If he still looks like same ol same ol and struggling, then time to switch it up.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

@Tuco Salamanca and @scarletred

I think you both hit on my biggest concern. That he seems way too indecisive this year and has trouble finding the open receiver. Scarlet’s claim that maybe coach Verduzco has him thinking too much might actually also be in perfect synch with Tuco’s claim that Martinez had trouble reading coverages. Maybe last year he trusted his initial gut instincts with regard to reading coverages but this year became indecisive as his coach was in his head causing him to doubt his reads. By then... too late.

maybe. I think opponents disguised the coverages better this year. Which caused Martinez to read more than he did last year rather than counting on the sidelines to read initial coverage. My opinion.

 

[otismotis08]

Zone defense. Should be easy to throw against if the qb can read the field. So idk...his overall awareness or vision? Maybe hes seeing ghosts or something. I think it has to mostly be AM for whatever reason (secret injury or just plain regression). Some of it surely was lack of talent at WR and spotty o line play earlier in the season. But the line cleaned up about as much as can be asked for by seasons end, and WR is what it is until we get some ballers at that position.

Like you I was a defender of AM. Hell, I even had a custom Martinex jersey made heading into this season. But sadly Ive found myself joining the ranks with his critics and have even become open about calling for McCaffrey to be played over him. Id love to see the kid turn it around and succeed...but we just dont see that exude from him the way it seems to from Luke. Either way, I think a fair and open qb competition would be beneficial going into next season. It might actually force AM to improve and retain his starting job, which could in turn help the team.

Maybe if he does give him 3-4 games to prove it. If he still looks like same ol same ol and struggling, then time to switch it up.

The coaches should know if he's turned to corner after the very first game. If he's not cutting it in the first game, make a move and then make him earn it back.

 

[gw2kpro]

Those damn swing passes! Tuco nails it too when he points out how many of those passes were behind the receiver. Ugh.

Yep. Swing pass behind the receiver virtually guarantees a blown play (3 yard loss).

 

[9and4]

I like this analysis very much. But on the whole how would you rate Martinez this year? Was he as lousy as many say?

I don't know enough about the game to make that determination. I think he was a good quarterback statistically, but for what he was asked to do in our offense (carry it, essentially), he wasn't up to the task, and that has as much to do with Adrian as it does the lack of production early from the RB position and the inability of our WRs to stretch the field.

 

[9and4]

One other note: Adrian Martinez is still just 19 years old. By comparison, Nathan Stanley is 22. Because of his personal maturity, we may forget that his football maturity is still in development.

 

[sparky62]

What I saw was an indecisive QB. It didn’t matter if it was keeping the ball on the read option, or being a half second late on a throw, or as I said before not knowing if the coverage was zone or man. The number of times he tried to throw a guy open when the WR was sitting in hole of the zone was concerning. Then count the number of times a pass to a WR or RB in the flat was behind the receiver, it was numerous.

I get the Brady comparison, but last night was the the exception for Brady. Martinez had many of those games this season.

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^

 

[Pennsyhusker]

maybe. I think opponents disguised the coverages better this year. Which caused Martinez to read more than he did last year rather than counting on the sidelines to read initial coverage. My opinion.

I agree about the disguised coverages.
But what I am trying to figure out as well is why his passing seems less accurate this year? You mentioned the piss poor swing passes. Last year he was more accurate with those. He also threw better on the run last year. Or is all of that just subjective bullshit on my part?

 

[Pennsyhusker]

^^^^^^THIS^^^^^

Hey Sparky! Long time....

 

[Dr_Alan_Grant]

Without going out and watching re-watching games my gut says

1. I think he has been injured most of the year, but Frost will not come out and say it.

2. I think our O-line was part of the issue.

3. Our lack of receiver threats and RB injuries were icing on the cake.

His stats are definitely worse, but he did miss some games and split some time with other QB's. So no, I don't think he was terrible, but it certainly felt like he was hesitant to run or had trouble making reads along with a lot of overthrowing receivers.

 

[sparky62]

Hey Sparky! Long time....

Yes sir. I miss this place. I need to get back on here a lot more. Pretty soon @Mike Matya will start deducting from my weekly salary. BTW, how ya been buddy?

 

[BeautifulDayintheNeighborhood]

I have been very critical on here about the play of Martinez. I defended him early in the year, but got frustrated with his play more and more, until I finally joined the ranks of his critics. I was even one of the mob calling for Martinez to be benched in favor of Luke.

There is no doubt he did not live up to our inflated expectations this year. There is no doubt he seemed slower and more tentative.

But here is the multi part, “honest question” (and I really do want solid, evidence based answers, not emotions): is it actually true that he had a lousy year? Is it actually true that our offensive problems this year were mostly his fault? Is it true that he was so bad that he deserved to be benched? What are his stats? Are we being unfair in criticizing him? Was he actually a damn good QB who was simply a victim of being over hyped?

First few games it’s all offensive line. No protection, bad snaps... I think he got kind of shellshocked due to that, totally destroyed his mojo, which led to poor play towards end of season after snaps improved and protection got marginally better.

 

[sparky62]

Without going out and watching re-watching games my gut says

1. I think he has been injured most of the year, but Frost will not come out and say it.

2. I think our O-line was part of the issue.

3. Our lack of receiver threats and RB injuries were icing on the cake.

His stats are definitely worse, but he did miss some games and split some time with other QB's. So no, I don't think he was terrible, but it certainly felt like he was hesitant to run or had trouble making reads along with a lot of overthrowing receivers.

2. really sticks out. In many games our O line looked like a spaghetti strainer. They are young and go better. But it all starts in the trenches.

 

[dand84]

We also have to remember that the coaches are looking at things from a whole season perspective. AM wasn't bad in every game. He had bad series, bad plays, and some bad quarters. He also made some good ones and for some series, plays and quarters looked like his old self.

Vedral is decidedly not as good as AM. They are hoping to keep Luke's redshirt so they have to weigh replacing him against those considerations. There also other reasons the offense dragged besides AM including receivers and really bad oline play. This offense requires receivers to make correct reads and most of us have no idea whether it was truly a bad pass or a receiver not running the correct route.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

Without going out and watching re-watching games my gut says

1. I think he has been injured most of the year, but Frost will not come out and say it.

2. I think our O-line was part of the issue.

3. Our lack of receiver threats and RB injuries were icing on the cake.

His stats are definitely worse, but he did miss some games and split some time with other QB's. So no, I don't think he was terrible, but it certainly felt like he was hesitant to run or had trouble making reads along with a lot of overthrowing receivers.

Good take. I think this is my take too. I also share the view of you and @headcard that he has been injured this year. That would explain both his indecisiveness and his apparent aversion this year to getting hit