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Isn't it just a chicken sandwich...a really good chicken sandwich?

I know the usual suspects will clamor to find the same thing in each of these studies...that environmental factors also play a role. But answer this question...would environmental factors even be capable of playing a role in these people becoming gay...if they didn't already possess the genetic markers we'll call the "gay genes?" How can anyone actually claim environmental factors making a difference, when they don't know how people would respond to those very same environmental factors, if they didn't possess the "gay gene?" Regardless, the only real component of this study that can be somewhat controlled is the location(s) of the genes associated with being gay.

What about the term "environmental factors" has any sort of qualifiable characteristic? That the guy happened upon his sister's treasure trove of Air Supply records? Or maybe stumbling over her pumps and noticing they were his size...after the sister left them in the hall after prom? Liking tafeda better than jeans because it doesn't chafe? Are these the "environmental factors" that are able to be so highly controlled in the clinical setting?

https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn26572-largest-study-of-gay-brothers-homes-in-on-gay-genes/

Largest study of gay brothers homes in on ‘gay genes’

Not a lifestyle thing, but specific gay genes remain to be pinned down

A genetic analysis of 409 pairs of gay brothers, including sets of twins, has provided the strongest evidence yet that gay people are born gay. The study clearly links sexual orientation in men with two regions of the human genome that have been implicated before, one on the X chromosome and one on chromosome 8.

The finding is an important contribution to mounting evidence that being gay is biologically determined rather than a lifestyle choice. In some countries, such as Uganda, being gay is still criminalised, and some religious groups believe that gay people can be“treated” to make them straight.

“It erodes the notion that sexual orientation is a choice,” says study leader Alan Sanders of the NorthShore Research Institute in Evanston, Illinois.

The region on the X chromosome picked out by the study, called Xq28, was originally identified in 1993 by Dean Hamer of the US National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Maryland, but attempts to validate the finding since have been mixed. The other region picked out is in the twist in the centre of chromosome 8. Known as 8q12, it was first signposted in

Statistically stronger

The latest study involves about three times as many people as the previous largest study, which means it is significantly more statistically robust.

Over the past five years, Sanders has collected blood and saliva samples from 409 pairs of gay brothers, including non-identical twins, from 384 families. This compares, for example, with 40 pairs of brothers recruited for Hamer’s study.

The team combed through the samples, looking at the locations of genetic markers called single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) – differences of a single letter in the genetic code – and measuring the extent to which each of the SNPs were shared by the men in the study.

The only trait unequivocally shared by all 818 men was being gay. All other traits, such as hair colour, height and intelligence, varied by different degrees between each brothers in a pair and between all sets of brothers. Therefore, any SNPs consistently found in the same genetic locations across the group would most likely be associated with sexual orientation.

Only five SNPs stood out and of these, the ones most commonly shared were from the Xq28 and 8q12 regions on the X chromosome and chromosome 8 respectively. But this doesn’t mean the study found two “gay genes”. Both regions contain many genes, and the next step will be to home in on which ones might be contributing to sexual orientation.

Sanders says he has already completed the work for that next step: he has compared SNPs in those specific regions in gay and straight men to see if there are obvious differences in the gene variants, and is now preparing the results for publication. “Through this study, we have the potential to narrow down to fewer genes,” says Sanders.

Not just genetic

Whatever the results, Sanders stresses that complex traits such as sexual orientation depend on multiple factors, both environmental and genetic. Even if he has hit on individual genes, they will likely only have at most a small effect on their own, as has also been seen in studies of the genetic basis for intelligence, for example.

Other researchers who have looked at the biological origins of sexual orientation have welcomed the latest findings, saying they help resolve contradictory results from earlier, smaller studies. “The most pleasing aspect is that the confirmation comes from a team that was in the past somewhat sceptical and critical of the earlier findings,” says Andrea Camperio Ciani of the University of Padua in Italy.

“This study knocks another nail into the coffin of the ‘chosen lifestyle’ theory of homosexuality,” says Simon LeVay, the neuroscientist and writer who, in 1991, claimed to have found that a specific brain region, within the hypothalamus, is smaller in gay men. “Yes, we have a choice in life, to be ourselves or to conform to someone else’s idea of normality, but being straight, bisexual or gay, or none of these, is a central part of who we are, thanks in part to the DNA we were born with.”

“Much hard work now lies ahead to identify the specific genes involved and how they work, as well as to find equivalent genes in women,” he adds.

Hamer himself, now a documentary film-maker, is delighted with the result. “Twenty years is a long time to wait for validation, but now it’s clear the original results were right,” he says. “It’s very nice to see it confirmed.”

Leader: “Gay gene discovery has good and bad implications“

Journal reference: Psychological Medicine, DOI: 10.1017/S0033291714002451

Correction, 18 November 2014: When this article was first published, we said that all the participants in the study were non-identical twins. They are in fact pairs of brothers, although some are non-identical twins.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Why I took part in gene study, and what it means to me

As a doctor, I recognise the importance of furthering science through legitimate research. As a gay man, I’ve known that my sexuality has never been a choice but I could not explain, to myself or anyone else, how I became this way. Genetics and environmental influences seemed logical. This study is an attempt to answer the genetics part of the question.

The results may provide validation for homosexual men who have asked the same questions that I have. They may improve the self-esteem of the many men who have asked “why me?”, or have felt ostracised, prejudiced, put down, left out, demonised, or worse. They might possibly change the minds of those who believe homosexuality is a “choice” rather than something predetermined.

However, it is important that the findings be put in context. Inevitable headlines like “Gay gene discovered” or “It’s not a choice” over-egg the results. Just because there is a genetic link to homosexuality, it does not necessarily guarantee one will end up gay. The genes, if and when they are identified, may only predispose one to the possibility of being gay, should the required environmental, nutritional or other unknown factors be present at critical stages of development.

On a darker level, some may use the results to justify a belief that homosexuality is the result of a “broken” or “deviant” gene that needs to be fixed. Imagine parents requesting a genetic test on their unborn fetus, or worse, a government rolling out mandatory testing of all unborn children, and using compulsory abortions to cleanse the gene pool. There is enough hate in the world that this concept is not as outrageous as one might think.

Despite this, I remain hopeful that our world will continue to evolve into a safer and more accepting place for everyone. While some countries are going backwards, there is a greater openness around the world to homosexuality. This openness, coupled with scientific fact, will bring a greater understanding of human sexuality to a new generation. Chad Zawitz

Chad Zawitz is a senior physician at a clinic in Chicago, coordinating services for people with HIV and other infectious diseases. He took part in the study with his twin brother.
 
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1. Yes I knew there can be alterations...but they are minor especially in comparison to the similarities found in sins or fraternals.

2. The concordance rates in identical twin studies are very small when it comes to homosexuality. The only studies to show large concordance rates were smaller self-selected studies. The last twin study showed a rate of 7.7%. That is negligible in comparison to fraternals and sins and nearly negligible with strangers.

3. People try to hard to read the data in a way that is beneficial for their side. This doesn't mean it's a choice... it does mean we should let the data speak.
 
1. Yes I knew there can be alterations...but they are minor especially in comparison to the similarities found in sins or fraternals.

2. The concordance rates in identical twin studies are very small when it comes to homosexuality. The only studies to show large concordance rates were smaller self-selected studies. The last twin study showed a rate of 7.7%. That is negligible in comparison to fraternals and sins and nearly negligible with strangers.

3. People try to hard to read the data in a way that is beneficial for their side. This doesn't mean it's a choice... it does mean we should let the data speak.

You're right on one thing, Tom...different studies provide different numbers. I have read studies that have a much stronger correlation than the studies you reference. The one question I would like answered, but I'm sure the numbers aren't available, is...what percentage of people that are gay, don't have these genetic markers? I would suspect if they identified 800+ straight people, very few would have the "gay gene."
 
I have a college buddy who was openly gay, which in 1993 wasn't the norm. He took a lot of crap, but chose to be who he was.

That being said, I thought I could "change" him, even involving my girlfriend and her sorority sisters. Needless to say it didn't work, the "fix" didn't stick. To this day he is still a Hawkeye fan.

Maybe he realized that he could immediately double his wardrobe if he met a guy his size. Yup, it's a Seinfeld joke.
 
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The Amazon comparison is not a comparison unless you are talking about a physical store.
That's really very silly. I'm not even sure you believe that it isn't a legitimate comparison. However, I'll pat you on your head and go with your example. So, in my comparison, replace Amazon with Starbucks, same frickin' thing.
Neither Chic-fil-A nor Starbucks have, to my knowledge broken any laws or have discriminatory business practices. Do you know what happens when a gay guy orders foot at a Chic-fil-A? He gets his food with the same service as the straight guy.
 
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The students are choosing which restaurant to get on campus. Am I wrong? They can not prevent Amazon or any other online retailer from shipping to anywhere on campus. That is very silly.

This is not a legal challenge, which you seem to be misunderstanding. There is no legal reason to bar Chick Fil A. This is student choice. Does the student body president have the right to do what he did? No clue, probably yes. One who felt differently could have done the same for Starbucks. It's less likely only because it would look ridiculous, like the guy who ranted about Starbucks Christmas Cups.

But here you go, you may find a college campus where this gets taken seriously: http://www.dumpstarbucks.com/

Again it is unlikely because of how people feel today in the USA. A Christian college recently ousted a teacher for teaching that Muslims worship the same God and even there most students were protesting in support of the teacher. Russia is another story on gay rights.
 
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You're right on one thing, Tom...different studies provide different numbers. I have read studies that have a much stronger correlation than the studies you reference. The one question I would like answered, but I'm sure the numbers aren't available, is...what percentage of people that are gay, don't have these genetic markers? I would suspect if they identified 800+ straight people, very few would have the "gay gene."
If you look at the identical twin studies and leave out those were people self selected into the study you find little concordance. There is no other interpretation at this point. Might further research lead to a different finding? Certainly...as we get deeper into our understanding of the genome. However in terms of twin studies we have no compelling conclusive link between genetics and sexual orientation.
 
If you look at the identical twin studies and leave out those were people self selected into the study you find little concordance. There is no other interpretation at this point. Might further research lead to a different finding? Certainly...as we get deeper into our understanding of the genome. However in terms of twin studies we have no compelling conclusive link between genetics and sexual orientation.

Again, depending on the study, the numbers can be substantially different.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/17/science/gay-men-in-twin-study.html

Gay Men in Twin StudyPublished: December 17, 1991

CHICAGO, Dec. 16— A new study of twins provides the strongest evidence yet that homosexuality has a genetic basis, researchers say, though they say other factors like social conditioning may be important.

The study, published in the December issue of The Archives of General Psychiatry, adds to evidence that sexual orientation does not result from a maladjustment or moral defect, one author said.

"We found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men also were gay, compared with 22 percent of fraternal twins, compared with 11 percent of genetically unrelated brothers," said J. Michael Bailey, an assistant professor of psychology at Northwestern University in Evanston, "which is exactly the kind of pattern you would want to see if something genetic were going on." By "unrelated," Dr. Bailey was referring to brothers by adoption.

"The genetically most similar brothers were also the ones most likely to be gay, by a large margin," he added.

The study examined 56 identical twins, 54 fraternal twins and 57 adoptive brothers recruited through advertisements in gay-interest publications.

Identical twins are genetic clones, having developed in the womb from a single egg that split after being fertilized by a single sperm. Fraternal twins develop simultaneously from two separate eggs fertilized by two separate sperm cells, making them only as similar as non-twin siblings.

"This is the first real genetic study of sexual orientation in about 40 years," said Dr. Bailey, whose co-author was Dr. Richard C. Pillard, a psychiatry professor at Boston University School of Medicine.

Dr. Bailey estimated that the degree of the genetic contribution to homosexuality could range from 30 percent to more than 70 percent, depending on varying assumptions about the prevalence of homosexuality and how well the sample represents twins in the general population.

Gregory Carey, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Colorado, called the work very important. "I'm not terribly surprised at the conclusions," he said. "I think they're very well founded. Some of the earlier evidence suggested there was genetic effect, but the studies were not well done. This is something that really sort of clinches it."
 
Again, depending on the study, the numbers can be substantially different.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/17/science/gay-men-in-twin-study.html

Gay Men in Twin StudyPublished: December 17, 1991

CHICAGO, Dec. 16— A new study of twins provides the strongest evidence yet that homosexuality has a genetic basis, researchers say, though they say other factors like social conditioning may be important.

The study, published in the December issue of The Archives of General Psychiatry, adds to evidence that sexual orientation does not result from a maladjustment or moral defect, one author said.

"We found 52 percent of identical twin brothers of gay men also were gay, compared with 22 percent of fraternal twins, compared with 11 percent of genetically unrelated brothers," said J. Michael Bailey, an assistant professor of psychology at Northwestern University in Evanston, "which is exactly the kind of pattern you would want to see if something genetic were going on." By "unrelated," Dr. Bailey was referring to brothers by adoption.

"The genetically most similar brothers were also the ones most likely to be gay, by a large margin," he added.

The study examined 56 identical twins, 54 fraternal twins and 57 adoptive brothers recruited through advertisements in gay-interest publications.

Identical twins are genetic clones, having developed in the womb from a single egg that split after being fertilized by a single sperm. Fraternal twins develop simultaneously from two separate eggs fertilized by two separate sperm cells, making them only as similar as non-twin siblings.

"This is the first real genetic study of sexual orientation in about 40 years," said Dr. Bailey, whose co-author was Dr. Richard C. Pillard, a psychiatry professor at Boston University School of Medicine.

Dr. Bailey estimated that the degree of the genetic contribution to homosexuality could range from 30 percent to more than 70 percent, depending on varying assumptions about the prevalence of homosexuality and how well the sample represents twins in the general population.

Gregory Carey, an assistant professor of psychology at the University of Colorado, called the work very important. "I'm not terribly surprised at the conclusions," he said. "I think they're very well founded. Some of the earlier evidence suggested there was genetic effect, but the studies were not well done. This is something that really sort of clinches it."
This study was done twenty five years ago and was widely criticized at the time (and now) for self-selection. Ads were put in gay magazines so those who signed up felt they had a vested interest in seeing a genetic link. While teaching psychology in 1993 I used it as an example of a very faulty study.

Trust me...I would love to see a genetic link involving twin studies. We just have not seen that in any conclusive manner...yet.
 
This study was done twenty five years ago and was widely criticized at the time (and now) for self-selection. Ads were put in gay magazines so those who signed up felt they had a vested interest in seeing a genetic link. While teaching psychology in 1993 I used it as an example of a very faulty study.

Trust me...I would love to see a genetic link involving twin studies. We just have not seen that in any conclusive manner...yet.

Tom, I understand that there are bad studies out there, but the fact that the study was done 25 years ago has no bearing on whether it was a good study or not. Watson and Crick's study of the DNA helix was done over 60 years ago, and even though there were questions as to who actually did the work and actually discovered DNA, the study provided the basis for genetic models of today. Study protocol is a lot older than 25 years. Studies of this nature are inherently not as well controlled, just by the nature of the study.

How does self-selection alter the results of the study? The two most important qualifiers for this study were that they were first identical twins and 2nd that they were gay. How else would the study participants be chosen? Whether they listened to Liza Minelli and Barbra Streisand Complete CD sets? If they have Kathy Griffin ticket stubs on their dresser?

EDIT: Wouldn't it be awfully difficult for non-identical twins to pass as identical twins? Just based on interviews of each study participant, those attempting to alter the results would be eliminated pretty quickly. And what reason would straight identical twins have for claiming to be gay? I suppose if they were paid to claim they were gay, but would a researcher really risk his career, because word would undoubtedly get out.
 
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Exactly. Liberals don't like it both ways. Oh...wait...
Every time you get tempted to bust out "libtards" on this board, I want you to write it down on a piece of paper. Then, I want you to crumple the paper up to a medium size, and shove it straight up your ass. Don't wet the paper, that's cheating.

It must be sooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaard for you that people exist in the world who think we ought to just leave gay people the hell alone and let them live their lives in peace. It was accurately stated above, freedom of speech cuts both ways. The CEO is allowed to say and think whatever without being jailed for it, but on the flip side of that coin, people are allowed to not eat the food and tell them to take it elsewhere if they think he's a dick.

I mean, it's like, you guys, you can't even pick on people any more without the fear of somebody standing up for them!
 
This study was done twenty five years ago and was widely criticized at the time (and now) for self-selection. Ads were put in gay magazines so those who signed up felt they had a vested interest in seeing a genetic link. While teaching psychology in 1993 I used it as an example of a very faulty study.

Trust me...I would love to see a genetic link involving twin studies. We just have not seen that in any conclusive manner...yet.

Genetic link or not, why is it of any significance? Simply because it's irreconcilable with religious doctrine? If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, it really doesn't matter if there's a gene that links it, yeah?
 
Every time you get tempted to bust out "libtards" on this board, I want you to write it down on a piece of paper. Then, I want you to crumple the paper up to a medium size, and shove it straight up your ass. Don't wet the paper, that's cheating.

It must be sooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaard for you that people exist in the world who think we ought to just leave gay people the hell alone and let them live their lives in peace. It was accurately stated above, freedom of speech cuts both ways. The CEO is allowed to say and think whatever without being jailed for it, but on the flip side of that coin, people are allowed to not eat the food and tell them to take it elsewhere if they think he's a dick.

I mean, it's like, you guys, you can't even pick on people any more without the fear of somebody standing up for them!

Liberals aren't welcome in our forum community as of late.
 
Diverse thought is the enemy of liberals. Arrogantly enforcing uniform thought is the best way to restrict the free expression of ideas. Something universities say they support. They don't.
Yep, let's do this. Let's do this whole stupid thing again. Let's whip our political dicks out and flop them around for 5 pages til the thread finally gets locked.
 
Liberals aren't welcome in our forum community as of late.
As of late? You should have seen this place on inauguration day 7 years ago.

It's childish, it's a violation of the "board rules," but as long as you're just bashing on them dadgum lib-ruls and moz-lems, you can skate for life and the thread will stay open. It's the same few children every time, they get bored and they want a squabble, so they cast out the bait and see if they can't blame all their woes in life on progressives.

What I like to do is just ensure it's a shitshow all around. Keep it, you know, "fair and balanced."
 
Every time you get tempted to bust out "libtards" on this board, I want you to write it down on a piece of paper. Then, I want you to crumple the paper up to a medium size, and shove it straight up your ass. Don't wet the paper, that's cheating.

It must be sooooooooooo haaaaaaaaaaaaaard for you that people exist in the world who think we ought to just leave gay people the hell alone and let them live their lives in peace. It was accurately stated above, freedom of speech cuts both ways. The CEO is allowed to say and think whatever without being jailed for it, but on the flip side of that coin, people are allowed to not eat the food and tell them to take it elsewhere if they think he's a dick.

I mean, it's like, you guys, you can't even pick on people any more without the fear of somebody standing up for them!

I gotta say....I really laffed owt lowd..
 
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1) Do you think it is unreasonable of me to require that you defend your claim that I use logic selectively? (I just showed you that the evidence you provided was no evidence at all, as it did not support the claim you wanted to make, i.e., that I simply dismiss contrary opinions or requests for clarification). If so, you're not in the business of forming or defending arguments at all.

2) No, you do not need to prove to "my satisfaction," you need to provide some evidence that your opinion of me is legitimate at all. You don't need to "prove" shit. I don't know how you would (indeed, this is a BIG part of the problem).

3) I can accept that you have reasons and you don't want to say them, I really can. Just don't sit there and act like you've offered a defensible opinion or have any leg to stand on whatsoever, or disagree with reasons I've offered, if you're unwilling to reciprocate.

4) No, not good. For one, I don't think you really mean that. Secondly, I want you to see that your approach to disagreeing with me throughout this thread has been very poor. That is what I want, not for you to think I am right. Every time I've asked/demanded you justify yourself, not only did you not do so, your tactic was to impugn me or my character, either through veiled shots at you thinking me stupid, or about my profession.

Again, I do not care that you think I am stupid, as you have done nothing in my mind for me to think you've formed a worthwhile opinion of my being so. I do not care what you think about me, I want you to acknowledge you have no reason to think so aside from your disliking me. If you would do me just this one favor I will happily place you on ignore and we'll never have to speak again.

Wow...Poor @Lincoln100. I literally wasted an hour of my day reading this thread. Watching @CC_Lemming make a complete fool out of you.
 
Genetic link or not, why is it of any significance? Simply because it's irreconcilable with religious doctrine? If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, it really doesn't matter if there's a gene that links it, yeah?

Ya know, what you say is true. I guess I just love getting into the nuts and bolts of science. But...there is that part of me that thinks, if all this stuff they say about God in the Bible is true, I don't want anyone to be left out when the big wheel stops spinning. I want every person to be in a good place when they leave earth.

EDIT: Well, not every person. You know...Hitler, Manson, Bundy, and a host of others...can suck it.
 
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Tom, I understand that there are bad studies out there, but the fact that the study was done 25 years ago has no bearing on whether it was a good study or not. Watson and Crick's study of the DNA helix was done over 60 years ago, and even though there were questions as to who actually did the work and actually discovered DNA, the study provided the basis for genetic models of today. Study protocol is a lot older than 25 years. Studies of this nature are inherently not as well controlled, just by the nature of the study.

How does self-selection alter the results of the study? The two most important qualifiers for this study were that they were first identical twins and 2nd that they were gay. How else would the study participants be chosen? Whether they listened to Liza Minelli and Barbra Streisand Complete CD sets? If they have Kathy Griffin ticket stubs on their dresser?

EDIT: Wouldn't it be awfully difficult for non-identical twins to pass as identical twins? Just based on interviews of each study participant, those attempting to alter the results would be eliminated pretty quickly. And what reason would straight identical twins have for claiming to be gay? I suppose if they were paid to claim they were gay, but would a researcher really risk his career, because word would undoubtedly get out.
You simply study twins...both identical and fraternal. The moment you advertise for participants in a gay magazine you are probably not going to have a random sample. (The same would be true if you advertised for gay twins in a program that "deprogrammed" gay folks.) You simply study twins.

Genetic link or not, why is it of any significance? Simply because it's irreconcilable with religious doctrine? If God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnibenevolent, it really doesn't matter if there's a gene that links it, yeah?
Do you want to discuss science or pigeon hole and slam faith? I'm not really interested in the latter.
 
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You simply study twins...both identical and fraternal. The moment you advertise for participants in a gay magazine you are probably not going to have a random sample. (The same would be true if you advertised for gay twins in a program that "deprogrammed" gay folks.) You simply study twins.

Do you want to discuss science or pigeon hole and slam faith? I'm not really interested in the latter.

Are you purely interested in the science solely for the findings, or are the findings relevant to you for another reason? I have no interest in slamming faith, my intent was to genuinely ask why any of the argument about a genetic link mattered. Sorry if I gave you that impression.
 
You simply study twins...both identical and fraternal. The moment you advertise for participants in a gay magazine you are probably not going to have a random sample. (The same would be true if you advertised for gay twins in a program that "deprogrammed" gay folks.) You simply study twins.

Again, the qualifiers are that they are 1st, identical twins, and 2nd, they are gay. Honestly, if anything, advertising in a gay magazine would probably increase the likelihood that the applicants were indeed gay identical twins. And...it would probably increase the numbers that applied. But...it's understood that ALL studies of this nature can't completely eliminate bias. The terms double-blind, placebo controlled will never grace the Methods portion of these studies. Winking
 
How about we just do the following:
1) Allow people to have their views on marriage. The CEO of Chik-fil-a would qualify as a "person", since he is (and has genetics to prove it)
2) Be sure every restaurant is complying with laws and is not discriminating anyone for reasons other than "no shirt no shoes no service" etc.
3) Allow businesses to operate in our free market.
4) Allow students to have a vote on what business they want, and bring in the business the majority chooses.
5) If students do not like chosen business for any reason whatsoever, they will not be forced to be patrons.
6) If not enough people choose the business and it is running out of money, ensure the business' right to fail and close it's doors.

Why is that so difficult? Our society is full of WIMPS and thought police.
 
It took you an hour to read the thread? If you want step up, go for it.

What's the point? I've had more fulfilling exchanges with my dog. At least he doesn't purport to have worthwhile opinions, refuse to express or defend them, and then accuse me of being an idiot. He just looks at me with a puzzled look on his face.

Good riddance. You are now the second person on this forum I'll be ignoring. I think it is in our best interest, but please do me a favor: when I fail to respond to you in the future, know that it's because I can't see what you're saying, not because I am "dismissing" your opinion and cannot defend my position.

And I do sincerely apologize for being an arse - I would never treat you that way in real life. If this exchange has taught me anything it's that I could comport myself better to those I disagree with on this forum. It's just really hard with the crap that gets thrown out on here. Charity is a two-way street.
 
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How about we just do the following:
1) Allow people to have their views on marriage. The CEO of Chik-fil-a would qualify as a "person", since he is (and has genetics to prove it)
2) Be sure every restaurant is complying with laws and is not discriminating anyone for reasons other than "no shirt no shoes no service" etc.
3) Allow businesses to operate in our free market.
4) Allow students to have a vote on what business they want, and bring in the business the majority chooses.
5) If students do not like chosen business for any reason whatsoever, they will not be forced to be patrons.
6) If not enough people choose the business and it is running out of money, ensure the business' right to fail and close it's doors.

Why is that so difficult? Our society is full of WIMPS and thought police.
That's just silly talk.
 
What's the point? I've had more fulfilling exchanges with my dog. At least he doesn't purport to have worthwhile opinions, refuse to express or defend them, and then accuse me of being an idiot. He just looks at me with a puzzled look on his face.

Good riddance. You are now the second person on this forum I'll be ignoring. I think it is in our best interest, but please do me a favor: when I fail to respond to you in the future, know that it's because I can't see what you're saying, not because I am "dismissing" your opinion and cannot defend my position.

And I do sincerely apologize for being an arse - I would never treat you that way in real life. If this exchange has taught me anything it's that I could comport myself better to those I disagree with on this forum. It's just really hard with the crap that gets thrown out on here. Charity is a two-way street.
Message boards will always bring out the worst in us. People on message boards rarely interact with the same civility that they do in public. Very rarely.
 
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Message boards will always bring out the worst in us. People on message boards rarely interact with the same civility that they do in public. Very rarely.

You're right, something Sluggo (who, if I recall correctly, was a psychologist) told us long ago. Compound that with group-think and the truly dumb and/or uncharitable things people say to substantiate their opinions -- sometimes I cannot help myself.
 
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Dear UNK Alumni and Friends,

There are so many great things that go on at UNK every day that we begin to take them for granted. If I sent a note talking about these successes you’d likely get an email from me every hour. Unfortunately, I’m sending this message to you about a topic that has the potential to cast our campus in a bad light.

Let me begin by saying that our student leaders have been diligent in their desire and effort to improve the Nebraskan Student Union—including the potential of adding name brand restaurants, which is a worthwhile endeavor. Student government conducted a survey to inform, not to decide, which brand name restaurants might be best for UNK. Chick-fil-A received the most votes. The results of that survey concerned a few in our community and a second survey was taken with Raising Cane’s substituted for Chick-fil-A, which also received the most votes. With student interests in mind, UNK can now begin investigating interest and viability of restaurants.

However, it is the taking of the second survey that has gained national attention. Unfortunately, there has been a good deal of misinformation about our process and commentaries and opinions have spiraled out of control. UNK has been subjected to ridicule at the national level by a few outlets that don’t know the facts or circumstances.

We have decided to proceed with investigating the possibility of bringing a name brand restaurant to the student union. This is not a decision based on popularity but rather on balancing the viability of these name brands to come to campus. Many of the companies will want renovations and some minimum sales volumes. We must weigh our preferences against the cost of having name brands. For instance, it is possible that attracting a name brand would necessitate increasing room and board rates.

To be clear, I have asked Business and Finance to examine the financial viability of bringing in name brands, including Chick-fil-A, to our campus. No one has been banned or discriminated against. Once those calculations have been determined we would then consider moving forward and making decisions about who, if anyone, is best suited to be added to our food offerings.

What is truly unfair and disappointing is that several of our community members have received nasty, even hateful, and unwarranted emails and calls. Most of the attention has come from people who have never had a thing to do with our campus. I ask for your patience as some take this opportunity to further personal viewpoints without regard to the facts. To the people who are truly concerned, I hope that you will direct comments and inquiries to myself or Kelly Bartling, assistant vice chancellor of communication and community relations.

Unfortunately, at what they see as opportune times like this, there are those that take cowardly liberty to threaten members of our University community. This cannot be tolerated. UNK values all of our community members and the varied opinions that they hold—and yes, certainly that includes those who disagree with us. However, threats and intimidation have no place on our campus. Thanks for all you do to make UNK a great place to live and work.

Doug

Douglas A. Kristensen, J.D.
Chancellor
 
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IBTL

SO VERY tired of people equivocating disagreeing with someone as hating them. It is so intellectually lazy.
Disagreeing is fine. Trying to force antiquated beliefs on them in a way that encroaches on their rights = hating.
 
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How about we just do the following:
1) Allow people to have their views on marriage. The CEO of Chik-fil-a would qualify as a "person", since he is (and has genetics to prove it)
2) Be sure every restaurant is complying with laws and is not discriminating anyone for reasons other than "no shirt no shoes no service" etc.
3) Allow businesses to operate in our free market.
4) Allow students to have a vote on what business they want, and bring in the business the majority chooses.
5) If students do not like chosen business for any reason whatsoever, they will not be forced to be patrons.
6) If not enough people choose the business and it is running out of money, ensure the business' right to fail and close it's doors.

Why is that so difficult? Our society is full of WIMPS and thought police.


Libs don't see it that way. You must conform to their thoughts...odd as they may be.
 
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Disagreeing is fine. Trying to force antiquated beliefs on them in a way that encroaches on their rights = hating.
So speaking in favor of traditional marriage = forcing antiquated beliefs on others, which equals hate?

Has Mr. Cathy said gays don't have the right to marry, or has he simply spoken in support of traditional marriage? I ask this question because I don't know. There is a big difference... One could be considered hate, as that word is so easily thrown out during disagreements of this nature, the other is a matter of opinion.

Same sex marriage is here and is not going away. Just because someone believes in traditional marriage doesn't = hate. if someone says gays can't marry, that's a different story. Feel free to call them haters I guess.
 
I can't belie you've let it go on this long! usually the Libs are whining to Mods like girls by now.
I haven't seen 1 report on this thread yet. It's actually been really civil from what I've seen. I'm not saying that every post in this thread is fit for a choir boy but both sides have made some pretty good arguments and done it in pretty good fashion.
 
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sparky62.2492
 
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