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Isn't it just a chicken sandwich...a really good chicken sandwich?

I'm a little late to this.

When I was a kid I always heard the expression:

"I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend your right to say it?"

Makes a hell of a lot more sense than all this boycott, bans, and trying to punish others for their personal opinions on faith.

I have worked for and with numerous gay people. My wife and I both have gay relatives. I'm also a UNK grad. If CF isn't allowed to come there because of some PC vocal minority, it will be a cold day in hell before I give anything to it. Not because I think the CEO is right, but colleges are supposed to be a place of free expression of ideas. Oh I forgot, that only applies to the left.
 
Very well said. I agree that most Christians are much more aware on this topic. It's actually refreshing. I would like to think that most Christians believe in Jesus' teachings of love thy neighbor vs content from the Old Testament.
I think the parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example of how we should treat those we aren't like. The hated Samaritan cared for the Israelite, while the other Israelites (a priest and levite) walked by without helping.

As a Christian, I have to take God's word for what it says. I believe homosexuality is a sin, the same way adultery or premarital sex is a sin. It doesn't mean I have nothing to do with anybody who is different than me or believes different than me. I can still show the love of Jesus to others no matter what they practice. Again, Good Samaritan comes to mind. I'm a sinner as well and am dependent on God's grace.

Some may say my dependence on God's word is misguided, and that's fine. But it is what I believe by faith. We all have faith in something... Mine is rooted in the bible. And while it does have some challenging things in it, I'm not at liberty to change it.

Jesus wasn't all about love, btw. There were many times when he dropped the hammer on those who needed it (often the religious leaders).
 
I think the parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example of how we should treat those we aren't like. The hated Samaritan cared for the Israelite, while the other Israelites (a priest and levite) walked by without helping.

As a Christian, I have to take God's word for what it says. I believe homosexuality is a sin, the same way adultery or premarital sex is a sin. It doesn't mean I have nothing to do with anybody who is different than me or believes different than me. I can still show the love of Jesus to others no matter what they practice. Again, Good Samaritan comes to mind. I'm a sinner as well and am dependent on God's grace.

Some may say my dependence on God's word is misguided, and that's fine. But it is what I believe by faith. We all have faith in something... Mine is rooted in the bible. And while it does have some challenging things in it, I'm not at liberty to change it.

Jesus wasn't all about love, btw. There were many times when he dropped the hammer on those who needed it (often the religious leaders).

I agree with a lot of what you posted, but I'm not real sure I agree on the Bible being the Word of God. It's the inspired word of God, but was still written by humans, and the Old Testament shows a number of inconsistencies. The Bible offers many great lessons, but the Old Testament is comical at times.

The Old Testament's greatest gift is the prophecies that were later fulfilled by Jesus. That is pretty compelling data to support Him truly being the Savior.
 
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I think the parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example of how we should treat those we aren't like. The hated Samaritan cared for the Israelite, while the other Israelites (a priest and levite) walked by without helping.

As a Christian, I have to take God's word for what it says. I believe homosexuality is a sin, the same way adultery or premarital sex is a sin. It doesn't mean I have nothing to do with anybody who is different than me or believes different than me. I can still show the love of Jesus to others no matter what they practice. Again, Good Samaritan comes to mind. I'm a sinner as well and am dependent on God's grace.

Some may say my dependence on God's word is misguided, and that's fine. But it is what I believe by faith. We all have faith in something... Mine is rooted in the bible. And while it does have some challenging things in it, I'm not at liberty to change it.

Jesus wasn't all about love, btw. There were many times when he dropped the hammer on those who needed it (often the religious leaders).

And you have a right to your opinion, but somehow I just don't think you are are ready to join the nuts from Westboro...right? Amazing a person can have a personal conviction about something, but they don't act out on that in a hateful way. Just shocking.
 
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I think the parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example of how we should treat those we aren't like. The hated Samaritan cared for the Israelite, while the other Israelites (a priest and levite) walked by without helping.

As a Christian, I have to take God's word for what it says. I believe homosexuality is a sin, the same way adultery or premarital sex is a sin. It doesn't mean I have nothing to do with anybody who is different than me or believes different than me. I can still show the love of Jesus to others no matter what they practice. Again, Good Samaritan comes to mind. I'm a sinner as well and am dependent on God's grace.

Some may say my dependence on God's word is misguided, and that's fine. But it is what I believe by faith. We all have faith in something... Mine is rooted in the bible. And while it does have some challenging things in it, I'm not at liberty to change it.

Jesus wasn't all about love, btw. There were many times when he dropped the hammer on those who needed it (often the religious leaders).
Not being a smart aleck but can we add divorce and remarriage to those sins. Up until about 100 years ago divorce was wrong and remarriage was taboo by virtually every church group. (And no, in most denominations you could not remarry even if adultery was the cause of the divorce. In some states it was even illegal.) Today virtually every church group accepts that sometimes divorce and remarriage happens. Frankly, the number of back flips that have to be done to allow remarriage "biblically" are far more numerous than those back flips that would let us allow same-sex marriage "biblically."
 
Not being a smart aleck but can we add divorce and remarriage to those sins. Up until about 100 years ago divorce was wrong and remarriage was taboo by virtually every church group. (And no, in most denominations you could not remarry even if adultery was the cause of the divorce. In some states it was even illegal.) Today virtually every church group accepts that sometimes divorce and remarriage happens. Frankly, the number of back flips that have to be done to allow remarriage "biblically" are far more numerous than those back flips that would let us allow same-sex marriage "biblically."
Very good addition as well Tom. Thanks.
 
A long ways from all churches are accepting. The ones that are tend to on the other end of the biblical perepctive - not all churches are same so lumping doesnt work. I am glad you introduced some "scientific" information from your two friends testimonies. I can show data on those who changed their lifestyle that refutes what you state as fact. That is the liberal way - if we say it is true enough times it must be and dont challenge it. I wont even go in to the dark world of this.

Oh, my 2 friends weren't enough...and you can refute that data with those occasions where gay people were able to overcome their 'demons?' So I guess the roughly 300-800 million gay people in the world might carry a little more weight then, no? And some of these people, who are guaranteed execution if they are found out, have made the decision to be gay???

Like I said, some ignorant people chiming in on this topic.
 
Very well said. I agree that most Christians are much more aware on this topic. It's actually refreshing. I would like to think that most Christians believe in Jesus' teachings of love thy neighbor vs content from the Old Testament.
Me thinks you need to study the New Testament more. It's in there. Further, the Biblical definition of love is entirely different than most want to portray it.
 
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I agree with a lot of what you posted, but I'm not real sure I agree on the Bible being the Word of God. It's the inspired word of God, but was still written by humans, and the Old Testament shows a number of inconsistencies. The Bible offers many great lessons, but the Old Testament is comical at times.

The Old Testament's greatest gift is the prophecies that were later fulfilled by Jesus. That is pretty compelling data to support Him truly being the Savior.
The entire Old Testament is about Jesus, namely, why he was necessary. When you read the Old Testament, instead of laughing, try thinking..."so that's why he was sent."
 
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I never once expressed interesting "winning" an argument. I ask questions that I think you should be able to answer given that you have a stance on this issue. For the record, it occurs to me all the time that I may not be asking the right question. When I ask a question in class and 90% of my students look back at me with puzzled faces I reformulate the question. On this matter I do not believe I have asked inane, unclear, or irrelevant questions as the only thing I demanded was a call for justification and called people out for their blatantly straw manning their competition. You have thus far refused to have an argument. An argument consists of a series of premises and a conclusion. You by fiat very early on in our conversation refused to have an argument when you said "I will believe what I want to believe and I will not apologize for doing so."



1) You intimated as much when you said you could disagree with someone and still respect their opinion. I disagreed, but my disagreement was predicated on what we're talking about being a moral issue. Do you think you can disagree with someone and respect their opinion if what is at stake is a moral issue. Yes or no? It really is that simple, it gets no more "cave man" than that. That is the point of comparing gay marriage to murder and rape. It is not to put those things on a par (duh!!!!!!!!!), it is to point out that you cannot "respect" the rapist's/murder's/gay marriage denier's opinion if you think their opinion is immoral.

2) No. I am about to have an aneurysm. Go back and read my second reply to the above guy if you care. I explicitly pointed out that you can disagree about same sex marriage without being hateful.

3) No shit.

4) Everyone who makes moral judgments does this implicitly. There is no way to avoid it, which is why it is asinine to try to paint liberals as doing something conservatives aren't.


There isn't any doubt that someone can disagree with someone on a moral issue, and still respect their opinion. There is a difference between a justification for murder and rape vs. gay marriage. If you can't see it, you can't see it.

"Morality" is subjective. While I believe that my set of morals is correct, I realize that I am only mortal and that it is possible that I am not the authority on morality. For that reason, no, I do not think my position is the definitive position and respect other opinions if there seems to be some logic behind them. That's why I don't act like a freaking jerk to those who can logically explain why they support gay marriage. There is an argument to be made, and even though I believe it to be flawed, their position isn't without merit.

If you can't philosophically bring yourself to accept that, morally, people can have their differences and still respect the others opinion, then you are different than me, and I can respect that.
 
Me thinks you need to study the New Testament more. It's in there. Further, the Biblical definition of love is entirely different than most want to portray it.

Me thinks all of us could benefit from studying the New Testament more. But I don't care what it says, really, because whether or not loving someone of the same sex is a sin (who really knows, other than God?), I am going to treat all people equally, unless they give me a reason otherwise. And even then, forgiveness should be a part of the equation.
 
The entire Old Testament is about Jesus, namely, why he was necessary. When you read the Old Testament, instead of laughing, try thinking..."so that's why he was sent."

The Old Testament laid the foundation as to why Jesus was necessary, and spelled out how it would come to pass. But I think you would get some pushback from your Jewish friends on it being solely about the coming of the Savior.

Did you miss this part of my post above?

"The Old Testament's greatest gift is the prophecies that were later fulfilled by Jesus. That is pretty compelling data to support Him truly being the Savior."
 
This is probably a good time to drop this off here. Especially when discussing the Old Testament.
-----------------------------------------------------------

"Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When people try to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9).The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev.15:19-24).The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev.25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev.11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev.11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend. He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging."
 
Me thinks all of us could benefit from studying the New Testament more. But I don't care what it says, really, because whether or not loving someone of the same sex is a sin (who really knows, other than God?), I am going to treat all people equally, unless they give me a reason otherwise. And even then, forgiveness should be a part of the equation.
Why would you promote the study of the New Testament if you don't care what it says.
 
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The entire Old Testament is about Jesus, namely, why he was necessary. When you read the Old Testament, instead of laughing, try thinking..."so that's why he was sent."

Or you could read it as the Hebrew Bible and as the history of the Israelites, which it actually is. What a poor stance to take on the OT. It most certainly is not "about Jeus." That is what Christians think, not Jews.
 
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1) There isn't any doubt that someone can disagree with someone on a moral issue, and still respect their opinion. There is a difference between a justification for murder and rape vs. gay marriage. If you can't see it, you can't see it.

2) "Morality" is subjective. While I believe that my set of morals is correct, I realize that I am only mortal and that it is possible that I am not the authority on morality. For that reason, no, I do not think my position is the definitive position and respect other opinions if there seems to be some logic behind them. That's why I don't act like a freaking jerk to those who can logically explain why they support gay marriage. There is an argument to be made, and even though I believe it to be flawed, their position isn't without merit.

3) If you can't philosophically bring yourself to accept that, morally, people can have their differences and still respect the others opinion, then you are different than me, and I can respect that.

1) So I say gay marriage should be allowed, and you say it shouldn't. In what sense do you "respect" my take on the matter? You don't respect it in the sense that you think I am right. You don't respect it in the sense that you agree with me. You don't respect it in the sense that you think it should be allowed (I am presuming). So I fail to see in what sense you "respect" my position on the matter at all. (It seems at most you respect the fact that I have a contrary opinion, but if what is at stake is a practice that is truly immoral, I don't know how you straddle both of these lines.) Also, for my part, given that I do not know what reasons you have for wanting to deny gay marriage (I am presuming), and given that I don't think there are any good ones, at least not that I am aware of, I don't/wouldn't respect your position on the matter either. I think your stance, if I am correct in attributing it to you, is immoral. Plain and simple, and because it's immoral I don't tolerate it either. I don't say, oh well, "live and let live," I want to change your mind,

2) This is freshman relativism. Basic moral obligations are not merely matters of taste, e.g., me liking chocolate and you liking vanilla ice cream. I don't accept it and I don't think you really do either. I have this discussion with my students practically every semester. You do not think the rapist is "correct" merely given the fact that he has a different "set of morals." I think that you think rape is just wrong, period. I do too. And if that conviction is correct, there better be good reasons for it lest we persecute rapists needlessly. Fortunately, it's not hard to come up with reasons for why rape is morally wrong...

3) I can and do accept that, but there is a big difference between moral obligations - demands which are taken to be universally and unconditionally binding, which almost every culture accepts in one way another (do not harm others, respect their inherent dignity and worth, be fair, help others sometimes if it comes at no great cost to you - and ethics or norms broadly, like etiquette with respect to eating and dress. Homosexuality is somewhere in between. It seems to be much more about etiquette surrounding sex norms, but the moment that people start marginalizing others for being so, or denying them a basic privilege available to everyone else, it becomes an issue of fairness, an issue of moral obligation. I have no problem respecting the opinion of others when it concerns norms broadly. If the subject were about whether you can eat with your elbows on the table, I wouldn't care and I would respect the contrary opinion too. It would seem to me to be legitimately "up for debate" in a way that gay marriage is not.
 
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I think the parable of the Good Samaritan is a good example of how we should treat those we aren't like. The hated Samaritan cared for the Israelite, while the other Israelites (a priest and levite) walked by without helping.

As a Christian, I have to take God's word for what it says. I believe homosexuality is a sin, the same way adultery or premarital sex is a sin. It doesn't mean I have nothing to do with anybody who is different than me or believes different than me. I can still show the love of Jesus to others no matter what they practice. Again, Good Samaritan comes to mind. I'm a sinner as well and am dependent on God's grace.

Some may say my dependence on God's word is misguided, and that's fine. But it is what I believe by faith. We all have faith in something... Mine is rooted in the bible. And while it does have some challenging things in it, I'm not at liberty to change it.

Jesus wasn't all about love, btw. There were many times when he dropped the hammer on those who needed it (often the religious leaders).
The dudes that flew planes into the trade center were just following their religion.
 
Why would you promote the study of the New Testament if you don't care what it says.

You have to read my post in context to the post it was responding to. He mentions that the New Testament refers to homosexuality. I'm saying that I don't care what it says about homosexuality, because I'm going to treat all people the same, whether they are straight or gay, black or white, male or female, or another religion (although I have my personal thoughts on Mohammad, which I don't think I need to share). I'm going to approach each of them as I would want each to approach me, as a caring human being.
 
1) So I say gay marriage should be allowed, and you say it shouldn't. In what sense do you "respect" my take on the matter? You don't respect it in the sense that you think I am right. You don't respect it in the sense that you agree with me. You don't respect it in the sense that you think it should be allowed (I am presuming). So I fail to see in what sense you "respect" my position on the matter at all. (It seems at most you respect the fact that I have a contrary opinion, but if what is at stake is a practice that is truly immoral, I don't know how you straddle both of these lines.) Also, for my part, given that I do not know what reasons you have for wanting to deny gay marriage (I am presuming), and given that I don't think there are any good ones, at least not that I am aware of, I don't/wouldn't respect your position on the matter either. I think your stance, if I am correct in attributing it to you, is immoral. Plain and simple, and because it's immoral I don't tolerate it either. I don't say, oh well, "live and let live," I want to change your mind,

2) This is freshman relativism. Basic moral obligations are not merely matters of taste, e.g., me liking chocolate and you liking vanilla ice cream. I don't accept it and I don't think you really do either. I have this discussion with my students practically every semester. You do not think the rapist is "correct" merely given the fact that he has a different "set of morals." I think that you think rape is just wrong, period. I do too. And if that conviction is correct, there better be good reasons for it lest we persecute rapists needlessly. Fortunately, it's not hard to come up with reasons for why rape is morally wrong...

3) I can and do accept that, but there is a big difference between moral obligations - demands which are taken to be universally and unconditionally binding, which almost every culture accepts in one way another (do not harm others, respect their inherent dignity and worth, be fair, help others sometimes if it comes at no great cost to you - and ethics or norms broadly, like etiquette with respect to eating and dress. Homosexuality is somewhere in between. It seems to be much more about etiquette surrounding sex norms, but the moment that people start marginalizing others for being so, or denying them a basic privilege available to everyone else, it becomes an issue of fairness, an issue of moral obligation. I have no problem respecting the opinion of others when it concerns norms broadly. If the subject were about whether you can eat with your elbows on the table, I wouldn't care and I would respect the contrary opinion too. It would seem to me to be legitimately "up for debate" in a way that gay marriage is not.

1) Your admission that you know of no "good" reason that anyone would be opposed to gay marriage explains a lot, and I understand now why you say what you say. How you can wholly dismiss every reason for disagreeing with it is baffling to me, but you know what you're doing.

2) You're in academia? Shocking. Again, that explains a lot. Love the "Freshman relativism." Explain to me, professor, what precisely is my "basic moral obligation." Also, who defines what it is and is it "fair" that there are differing opinions as to what the definition should be, or is CC's definition the fishizell?

3) Did you live under power lines as a kid?
 
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Having views is not discriminating. I Also don't think it is hateful to think two people of the same sex marrying isn't traditional. proponents want to call it hate to make it sound awful, but putting words into someone's mouth,doesn't make it true. I think it's wrong to miss church on Sunday and I think it is wrong to have youth sporting events on Sunday but it doesn't mean I hate kids or families that miss church or compete on Sunday's. Don't tell me it isn't the same thing because you don't control my mind, I do. I feel the same about both situations whether it fits your agenda or not. If you don't like it don't support the business and let the free market win, but the left knows they won't win in free society so they have to use force and ruin it for everyone. I'm sure the ceo agrees when I say my sin is as bad as anyone's but it is all still sin.
Also, Jesus called sinners and forgave them but he didn't tell them their sin was ok. He said go and sin no more. It is foolish and wrong to play the "that's not Christian" card when Jesus called sinners out while forgiving them and telling them to stop.
 
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The dudes that flew planes into the trade center were just following their religion.
Yep, the world is full of sinners, isn't it? It doesn't matter what you believe, there are no perfect people. None. At least that's what my bible says.

So what is your point here?
 
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Yep, the world is full of sinners, isn't it? It doesn't matter what you believe, there are no perfect people. None. At least that's what my bible says.

So what is your point here?
Actually, it's early this morning and I don't have all the cobwebs worked out yet. I get your point... But every religion has people who misapply what they believe to be God's word. Do you always paint with so broad a brush? Because of what you quoted is all religion evil? Is that what you are saying? You have that right, I just want to understand what you are trying to say...
 
Its a pretty damn good chicken sandwich. Extra pickles make it even better. Not a fan of the fries though. You know who has good fries? Bronco's in Omaha. Right out of the fryer, there are none better.
 
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1) So I say gay marriage should be allowed, and you say it shouldn't. In what sense do you "respect" my take on the matter? You don't respect it in the sense that you think I am right. You don't respect it in the sense that you agree with me. You don't respect it in the sense that you think it should be allowed (I am presuming). So I fail to see in what sense you "respect" my position on the matter at all. (It seems at most you respect the fact that I have a contrary opinion, but if what is at stake is a practice that is truly immoral, I don't know how you straddle both of these lines.) Also, for my part, given that I do not know what reasons you have for wanting to deny gay marriage (I am presuming), and given that I don't think there are any good ones, at least not that I am aware of, I don't/wouldn't respect your position on the matter either. I think your stance, if I am correct in attributing it to you, is immoral. Plain and simple, and because it's immoral I don't tolerate it either. I don't say, oh well, "live and let live," I want to change your mind,

You teach and don't understand what it means to respect one's opinion? It doesn't mean you have to agree with that opinion at all. It just means that you respect the other person's right to have it and express it. It means that you don't dismiss it out of hand without hearing that person's specific reasons for their position and accuse them of being "haters" or "bigots" or "racists" for having it.

The left loves to throw out the "do not judge" canard all the time, but are the first to apply it when it comes to this issue and pretty much every other moral issue that people disagree with them on. You don't know my heart. And just because you don't agree with my reasons for my beliefs (which I find to be very compelling in regards to anthropology, history, logic, natural law, etc), it doesn't mean that those reasons are driven by hatred, bigotry, or any other feelings of ill will towards others.

As a teacher you have very grave responsibility, an obligation, not to indoctrinate your students with this kind of group think mentality where if you don't think as the collective you are shunned or worse. I hope you take that to heart and don't belittle, marginalize, or ostracize students who disagree with your opinion on this and other matters. The best teachers I ever had were ones where I didn't know what their opinion was on different topics but who simply helped their students flesh that out for themselves.
 
Oh, my 2 friends weren't enough...and you can refute that data with those occasions where gay people were able to overcome their 'demons?' So I guess the roughly 300-800 million gay people in the world might carry a little more weight then, no? And some of these people, who are guaranteed execution if they are found out, have made the decision to be gay???

Like I said, some ignorant people chiming in on this topic.

Husker Du, you need to quite while you are only a hundred miles behind. Your comments on the Bible show a complete lack of understanding and that is being kind. The Bible states that the words there are "foolishness to those who do not believe" so I don't hold that against you. Just don't try to use it as a defense when you really don't know what you are using.

With all of the genetic studies that have been done, there are no "gay genes" that cause one to be gay. There are multiple studies, read them. There is a suggestion that they can be variables within genes but it is not proven and what you don't want to hear is that environmental conditions are a factor.

I see the gay activities in the school system. It is like a dare, a place to be welcome, a way to fit in and then it becomes a badge of honor - hey I am bisexual or I am gay. The last statistics I saw said less than 2% of our population claim to be gay. That is 2% of our population if the numbers hold true.

I am shocked this thread lasted this long. There is no changing anyone's minds on this. I just have a low tolerance for remarks that have no basis for them. Like all SEC teams cheat - well, some maybe do but that doesn't mean they all do - if you say they all do then back it up with some facts or shut up. I am guilty as well, but attempt to have at least some basis of facts - I try not to shoot my mouth off before my brains are loaded.

Now off to teach Sunday School
 
Husker Du, you need to quite while you are only a hundred miles behind. Your comments on the Bible show a complete lack of understanding and that is being kind. The Bible states that the words there are "foolishness to those who do not believe" so I don't hold that against you. Just don't try to use it as a defense when you really don't know what you are using.

With all of the genetic studies that have been done, there are no "gay genes" that cause one to be gay. There are multiple studies, read them. There is a suggestion that they can be variables within genes but it is not proven and what you don't want to hear is that environmental conditions are a factor.

I see the gay activities in the school system. It is like a dare, a place to be welcome, a way to fit in and then it becomes a badge of honor - hey I am bisexual or I am gay. The last statistics I saw said less than 2% of our population claim to be gay. That is 2% of our population if the numbers hold true.

I am shocked this thread lasted this long. There is no changing anyone's minds on this. I just have a low tolerance for remarks that have no basis for them. Like all SEC teams cheat - well, some maybe do but that doesn't mean they all do - if you say they all do then back it up with some facts or shut up. I am guilty as well, but attempt to have at least some basis of facts - I try not to shoot my mouth off before my brains are loaded.

Now off to teach Sunday School


I'm not into trying to embarrass you, but you really need to do some reading. It's only been 20+ years since they found an X chromosome link to being gay, but scientific news travels slow in church circles, so I'll give you a break. More recently (10+ years ago) there were studies on both the male and female chromosomes showing a genetic link to being gay.

Listen, if you think I am discounting God's place in all of this, you are sadly mistaken. You couldn't have come across someone that believes more firmly that the human body has God's fingerprints all over it. As opposed to scientists, my basis for being a Christian is both faith based...and scientific based. The most simple of God's creations, a simple blade of grass, is thousands of times more complex than the most complex of man's creations. God is so far beyond our scope of reason, that we'll never fully understand the human cell, let alone understand the creation of the universe.

Despite their efforts underground over in Switzerland, the Large Hadron Collider has only identified the "God" particle, which gives us better understanding of the glue that keeps matter together, but this is only scratching the surface of the creation of the universe. I say creation because even though there is randomness to the universe, there is so much more organization to it than is possible for it to be all by chance. Down to the microscopic level. As I argued with an atheist about a year ago, "Protein synthesis doesn't just occur because it occurs. It occurs because there is infinite complexity and organization to the process."

The miracle of birth is called that for a reason. What causes the human heart to start beating within 3 weeks of conception? God is so far ahead of us, it's comical. The LHC will never be able to give us more than a small part of the equation. The rest will always be God's secret. At any rate, not only am I convinced there is a God, but if He can create the universe, he certainly had the capability of creating himself incarnate, to give us all a second opportunity at His grace.

Now, all of that being said, was it us and original sin that led to the genetic mistakes that cause disease, or potentially people being gay? I don't know, nor do any of us. It's a crazy story, but I'm not saying that it isn't the case. But as much as people want to separate Science and God, they can very comfortably coexist. After all, in my mind at least, God is responsible for Science.

Now...are my gay friends the result of a genetic mistake? I don't know and I don't care. All I know is that I'm going to love them like I love others, because all of us are riddled with imperfections.

"The more I study Science, the more I believe in God."

-Albert Einstein
 
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I'm not into trying to embarrass you, but you really need to do some reading. It's only been 20+ years since they found an X chromosome link to being gay, but scientific news travels slow in church circles, so I'll give you a break. More recently (10+ years ago) there were studies on both the male and female chromosomes showing a genetic link to being gay.

Please provide link to this study.
 
Further, my biggest issues with the vocal minority of students at UNK who want to punish a successful CEO of a company that doesn't to my knowledge have their restaurants open on Sundays (in other words, practices what they preach), is YOUR SIDE WON. The views of the CEO being quoted are from what, 2012? The supreme court struck down the bans.

So go order a chicken sandwich and bask in the glory of your victory! From LAST YEAR!

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/27/us/supreme-court-same-sex-marriage.html?referer=
 
Gosh, what a terrible thing, to support "traditional marriage" (i.e., marriage). "Equal love", another idiotic neologism. You don't have to have sex with someone to love them.
 
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You teach and don't understand what it means to respect one's opinion? It doesn't mean you have to agree with that opinion at all. It just means that you respect the other person's right to have it and express it. It means that you don't dismiss it out of hand without hearing that person's specific reasons for their position and accuse them of being "haters" or "bigots" or "racists" for having it.

The left loves to throw out the "do not judge" canard all the time, but are the first to apply it when it comes to this issue and pretty much every other moral issue that people disagree with them on. You don't know my heart. And just because you don't agree with my reasons for my beliefs (which I find to be very compelling in regards to anthropology, history, logic, natural law, etc), it doesn't mean that those reasons are driven by hatred, bigotry, or any other feelings of ill will towards others.

As a teacher you have very grave responsibility, an obligation, not to indoctrinate your students with this kind of group think mentality where if you don't think as the collective you are shunned or worse. I hope you take that to heart and don't belittle, marginalize, or ostracize students who disagree with your opinion on this and other matters. The best teachers I ever had were ones where I didn't know what their opinion was on different topics but who simply helped their students flesh that out for themselves.

I agree with everything you said, and the way I conduct myself around my students is vastly different than the way I conduct myself around people in this forum. For one, I do not get frustrated with them in the way I get frustrated with so many people on here, because unlike so many people on here, their minds are actually open and trying to figure out the correct way to approach an issue. They do not have settled ideological views, many do have religious views, and their moral views are often developing (this was certainly true of me).

I do understand what it is to respect another's opinion. I teach philosophy and one of the most basic and initial things we ever do is practice in taking "the other side," another's "perspective," adopt their stance, apply their reasons, and see if they're any good. We do this sort of thing all the time.

I do not indoctrinate students in the class room. I rarely inject my opinion. The best way to teach philosophy is to let the students reason and discuss the issue on their own. The person whom I am writing my dissertation, moreover, was acutely sensitive to the issue of group think that you raise. He called it "herd instinct," a desire to conform to the behavior and patterns of the group, and he thought it explained a great deal of our moral development. The idea behind it is that it is dangerous to put yourself out on a limb and think differently from the crowd. Herd instinct is not a left-wing or right-wing phenomenon. It belongs to both equally.

If you really have reasons to be against gay marriage that aren't merely based on your religious beliefs, if, as you say, you find reasons in "anthropology, history, logic, and natural law," then I would like to hear them, and I would not dismiss them out of hand. This is not really the place to do that, but I'd be happy to have that discussion, and I see no reason why we couldn't do so cordially.

And again, for now the third time, I explicitly said you could be intolerant of (i.e., take a moral stand against) homosexuality and not be a "bigot," a "hater," or hold ill will towards homosexuals. If you read my posts, you will see that I am not using such tactics myself.

Finally, if you need evidence that I do not indoctrinate my students, consider this post evidence. You actually wrote out a thoughtful response that wasn't just blatantly uncharitable to your opponents, and I am responding in kind (i.e., not being a complete dick like I am with others). That is how the classroom typically goes too. I've never yet had an experience where someone stormed out or even got upset, because half the crap that came up in this thread never would.
 
Me thinks all of us could benefit from studying the New Testament more. But I don't care what it says, really, because whether or not loving someone of the same sex is a sin (who really knows, other than God?), I am going to treat all people equally, unless they give me a reason otherwise. And even then, forgiveness should be a part of the equation.
As someone else said, if you don't care what the New Testament says, why even open the book? Further, this topic isn't about loving someone of the same sex. It is about gay marriage, which is covered quite extensively and very specifically in the New Testament.

Forgiveness is a pretty big deal in the Bible, you got that right. One of the biggest verses quoted by non-believers about judging and forgiveness is the "let he without sin cast the first stone" story told in John 8. Those that quote this conveniently stop at verse 10. Verse 11 ends in Jesus saying, "go, and sin no more". That's the key part of the entire story.
 
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The Old Testament laid the foundation as to why Jesus was necessary, and spelled out how it would come to pass. But I think you would get some pushback from your Jewish friends on it being solely about the coming of the Savior.
Huh? I wouldn't expect Jews to consider the Old Testament to be about Jesus. They considered him a blasphemer and killed him. Of course, that was all part of the plan.
 
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This is probably a good time to drop this off here. Especially when discussing the Old Testament.
-----------------------------------------------------------

"Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When people try to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev.1:9).The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7.In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanness (Lev.15:19-24).The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev.25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev.11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev.21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

i) I know from Lev.11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread cotton/polyester blend. He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them (Lev.24:10-16)? Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev.20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging."
Again, after reading that, you should say..."so that's why Jesus was necessary".
 
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Just to be clear (then I'll try to bow out), the OT was in part about comments made by a Bible believing Christian. He repeated the fact that the New Testament of the Bible says that marriage is between one man and one woman. It also considers homosexuality a sin, in addition to many other sins (adultery, lying, drunkenness, pre-marital sex, etc.)

No sin is greater (worse) than the others, as all serve as a barrier between ourselves and God. Admittedly, MANY Christians choose to ignore this fact, and incorrectly insist their lying or getting drunk is "not nearly as bad of a sin" as the gay guy having sex. To prove this point, the Bible very often speaks of homosexuality within the context of other sinful behaviors, never singling one out over the other. That being said, Bible believing Christians are also not asked to cheer for policies and approve of parades in support of adulterers, lairs, and drunks.

The original topic was about whether or not a restaurant should be allowed on campus if the CEO has certain beliefs. If that is the standard you wish to apply, then Bible believing Christians should unite and demand NO purchases from Amazon.com should be allowed to be delivered to campus, since Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos has the opposite belief than that of Chic-fil-A's CEO. Assuming they did, would THAT now vocal minority be given the same respect, power, and response by the university?

To my knowledge, there is nothing about Chic-fil-A's business practices that are immoral, discriminatory, or illegal. If the belief is really that strong on campus, the restaurant will fail miserably very quickly and will move out, "problem" solved the old fashioned, free market, American way...if that way still exists.
 
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1) Your admission that you know of no "good" reason that anyone would be opposed to gay marriage explains a lot, and I understand now why you say what you say. How you can wholly dismiss every reason for disagreeing with it is baffling to me, but you know what you're doing.

2) You're in academia? Shocking. Again, that explains a lot. Love the "Freshman relativism." Explain to me, professor, what precisely is my "basic moral obligation." Also, who defines what it is and is it "fair" that there are differing opinions as to what the definition should be, or is CC's definition the fishizell?

3) Did you live under power lines as a kid?

We are about done, as I have little desire and even less patience to continue this discussion with you.

1) I am aware of no good reason because I am aware no compelling non religious reason to be opposed to gay marriage, and religious reasons should not be what we base policy decisions off of in a secular democratic republic in the twenty first century.

2) I have no idea why you find my being in academia relevant to this discussion. I assume that is because you have any number of preconceived biases about academics that you are finding I conform to, which now allows you to dismiss what I am saying as crackpot leftist BS or something like that. Good for you - that's a real victory right there.

Many moralists have defined "fairness" and we should opt for any of their definitions over your utterly bankrupt relativist idea that "what is fair is who decides what is fair." Kant's Categorical Imperative says to will only those actions that you can will as universal law. In the instance of gay marriage it would seem to dictate that you don't treat one group of consenting adults who want to cohabit with one another from another group, because that would be privileging the interests of the one group, and thus be unfair. You don't need an arbitrary definition from me, nor do we need yours. Then there is always the Golden Rule - if you were gay and wanted to marry, would you like it if you couldn't? Seems a little unfair, right?

Finally, you asked about your basic moral obligation. You have an obligation to be fair to others - yes or no? All this means is that you take yourself to not give one person or group preferential treatment over others all other things being equal. The particular issue may be more complicated than simply answering yes or no, but if you say yes (in the general case), then you take yourself to have a basic moral obligation to be fair to others.

3) No, but given that you offer it in response to a very basic distinction within moral philosophy, I'll consider the accusation a badge of honor. Again, you have provided no reasons to dispute the distinction, you've done nothing to undermine it except to accuse me of "living under power lines" as a kid. I wish I could convey to you how much contempt I have for this reply and your mode of reasoning throughout our exchange. It's really pathetic that, instead of requesting for clarification, taking an option seriously, or offering a worthwhile alternative, you are so willing to dismiss something out of hand merely in an effort to be combative.
 
I agree with everything you said, and the way I conduct myself around my students is vastly different than the way I conduct myself around people in this forum. For one, I do not get frustrated with them in the way I get frustrated with so many people on here, because unlike so many people on here, their minds are actually open and trying to figure out the correct way to approach an issue. They do not have settled ideological views, many do have religious views, and their moral views are often developing (this was certainly true of me).

I do understand what it is to respect another's opinion. I teach philosophy and one of the most basic and initial things we ever do is practice in taking "the other side," another's "perspective," adopt their stance, apply their reasons, and see if they're any good. We do this sort of thing all the time.

I do not indoctrinate students in the class room. I rarely inject my opinion. The best way to teach philosophy is to let the students reason and discuss the issue on their own. The person whom I am writing my dissertation, moreover, was acutely sensitive to the issue of group think that you raise. He called it "herd instinct," a desire to conform to the behavior and patterns of the group, and he thought it explained a great deal of our moral development. The idea behind it is that it is dangerous to put yourself out on a limb and think differently from the crowd. Herd instinct is not a left-wing or right-wing phenomenon. It belongs to both equally.

If you really have reasons to be against gay marriage that aren't merely based on your religious beliefs, if, as you say, you find reasons in "anthropology, history, logic, and natural law," then I would like to hear them, and I would not dismiss them out of hand. This is not really the place to do that, but I'd be happy to have that discussion, and I see no reason why we couldn't do so cordially.

And again, for now the third time, I explicitly said you could be intolerant of (i.e., take a moral stand against) homosexuality and not be a "bigot," a "hater," or hold ill will towards homosexuals. If you read my posts, you will see that I am not using such tactics myself.

Finally, if you need evidence that I do not indoctrinate my students, consider this post evidence. You actually wrote out a thoughtful response that wasn't just blatantly uncharitable to your opponents, and I am responding in kind (i.e., not being a complete dick like I am with others). That is how the classroom typically goes too. I've never yet had an experience where someone stormed out or even got upset, because half the crap that came up in this thread never would.

Thank you for your response. I apologize if I unfairly judged you to be one of those who throws out the "hateful bigot" label on those who disagree with you on this issue. I have attempted to have a cordial, unemotional exchange with someone on the other side of this issue, but literally 99 times out of a 100 there is no dialogue and only me being called names. I guess I've developed a bit of a knee jerk reaction.

Anyway, I will try to have that conversation with you but don't know that I'll have the time and I'm guessing this thread will be locked before too long. Would you be open to reading a book that I think does a great job laying out the traditional marriage argument? And I promise it doesn't rely on religious arguments. I'd even buy it for you.
 
Huh? I wouldn't expect Jews to consider the Old Testament to be about Jesus. They considered him a blasphemer and killed him. Of course, that was all part of the plan.

Huh, is Right.. The Old Testament is the "Bible" of the Jews. I'm hopeful you already knew this though.
 
Again, after reading that, you should say..."so that's why Jesus was necessary".

No actually, after that....I once again chuckled, because as evidenced by the mentioned Old Testament verses, the authors of those verses, and many others, were as nuts as the others that believed in those verses at that time. See what I mean about parts of the Old Testament, (and I'm sure parts of the New Testament) that are absolutely bonkers? If someone were to write anything today that remotely supported what those verses suggested, they would be locked up in Trembling Acres Mental Home and would never see the light of day again.
 
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