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Can't say I disagree. Shaq was an offensive force. There have been plenty of big men in the NBA with similar height and weight but they didn't have near the athleticism or skill on the offensive end that Shaq had.Rodman did it better than Shaq, while giving up 6 inches and 80 lbs. Shaq was a much better offensive player, but Rodman was the better big man defender and rebounder. Shaq was lost against any big man who could shoot from 10'. He was also irrelevant on a fast break. It was great watching Rodman get under Shaq's skin.
Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 9 1st team all defense. Retired for two years in his prime, if not would likely have 8 championships in a row. Lebron has won 1 scoring title and has 5 first team all defensive teams. 3-5 in the finals. He is an all time great player easily the best in his era but he's not better than Jordan imoI agree, I'm not even saying Lebron is a better player, I just think a lot of the arguments for Jordan are based on things people can't quantify like he hates losing, he was a competitor, his era was better, etc. whereas when you actually look at the numbers Lebron is just better in a lot of areas that people credit to MJ because of all the iconic moments he had in his career. I mean just now you're saying you remember where they shot from so that makes him a better shooter even though the numbers, including the most difficult shots (3pt%) show that Lebron was better over his career and at his best. I'm not saying you're wrong, but a lot of the arguments for MJ are more about feel than actual data. If Lebron retired now I'd still say MJ was probably better. But MJ retired after his 15th season, Lebron is in his 15th season and just put up 51-8-8 in the Finals.
What are you talking about? At 33, Jordan had 4 rings and a NC ring in college... how does 3 rings trump 4 (5)? Again, this is a swing and a miss.He was in the middle of his second three peat one season away from retiring for a second, but not final time. Not Lebrons fault MJ quit twice, Lebron has already played about 3000 more career minutes than MJ did, MJ had at least 10000 fewer minutes on his body at 33. If you want to compare career accomplishments at age 33 it’s not even close, Lebron destroys him.
If rings are all you care about then you’re right. You also then must think Robert Horry is the goat since he’s 7-0 in the finals. Why is it a greater accomplishment to lose earlier in the playoffs than to make the finals every year? I’m not even saying Lebron is better but saying finals record is all that matters is silly.What are you talking about? At 33, Jordan had 4 rings and a NC ring in college... how does 3 rings trump 4 (5)? Again, this is a swing and a miss.
I respect the crap out of Lebron and think he is an amazing player, one of the all time best, but to claim LBJ’s accomplishments destroys Jordan’s, I just don’t get it. Jordan finished his career 6-0 in nba finals... what is Lebron’s record in nba finals? That alone tells me all I need to know about who is greater.
You were the one touting accomplishments, not me. I guess I took that to mean hardware. I don’t know how many MVPs Lebron has, but Jordan has a few. Defensive player of the year... how many does lebron have?If rings are all you care about then you’re right. You also then must think Robert Horry is the goat since he’s 7-0 in the finals. Why is it a greater accomplishment to lose earlier in the playoffs than to make the finals every year? I’m not even saying Lebron is better but saying finals record is all that matters is silly.
If you think that you didn't watch much Jordan. The triangle was designed to prev3nt him from being double teamed.,...No he didn't. You forget he had a LeBron on his team. Scottie Pippen.
I have to question what you say if you think he dominated the ball his championship years.
If you think that you didn't watch much Jordan. The triangle was designed to prev3nt him from being double teamed.,...No he didn't. You forget he had a LeBron on his team. Scottie Pippen.
I have to question what you say if you think he dominated the ball his championship years.
Oh ..so are we now only counting his championship years? Or do we count the entire career?
Holla
Well at least we know where we stand on each others opinion. If you don't think he WAS ball dominant then I definitely question whether you watched Jordan. Either way I guess it's best we agree to disagree and best move on from wasting our time talking about Jordan and Bron...at least in this category.
Then the fact that you call Pippen a "LeBron" kinda validates my point about not talking Jordan vs Bron. Revisionists history...if u ever get a chance to go check some of Jordans user rating stats, shots taken in respect to others get back at me. I'll be here...
Holla
I just meant he had the same amount of mvps, more finals appearances, more all stars, more total points, rebounds and assists on better percentages (Not including free throws of course). I get if championships are all you care about then he didn't but comparing 33 year old resumes I don't think it's a stretch to say LeBrons is considerably better. Destroyed probably too strong though. Don’t get me wrong, I love MJ, I had a poster of him in my room growing up, he’s amazing and probably still the GOAT. We can agree to disagree, at this point MJ has been deified to the point that people forget he ever missed a shot but he wasn't perfect. He was dominant and at his peak I'd still say likely better than LeBron. But at this point if LeBrons career keeps going like it has he will have a more impressive career as he is in his 15th season and still dominating whereas MJ quit (for the 3rd and final time) after his 15th season.You were the one touting accomplishments, not me. I guess I took that to mean hardware. I don’t know how many MVPs Lebron has, but Jordan has a few. Defensive player of the year... how many does lebron have?
I think you can make a case for either guy depending on which stats you choose to use. But I totally disagree that lebron at 33 destroyed Jordan’s accomplishments at 33. I guess that’s what stuck in my craw...
Michael Jordan. Never once did I know his political stance. Lebron is a big fing baby that wont shut the f up. He needs to bone Hillary and be done.
I just meant he had the same amount of mvps, more finals app
I just meant he had the same amount of mvps, more finals appearances, more all stars, more total points, rebounds and assists on better percentages (Not including free throws of course). I get if championships are all you care about then he didn't but comparing 33 year old resumes I don't think it's a stretch to say LeBrons is considerably better. Destroyed probably too strong though. Don’t get me wrong, I love MJ, I had a poster of him in my room growing up, he’s amazing and probably still the GOAT. We can agree to disagree, at this point MJ has been deified to the point that people forget he ever missed a shot but he wasn't perfect. He was dominant and at his peak I'd still say likely better than LeBron. But at this point if LeBrons career keeps going like it has he will have a more impressive career as he is in his 15th season and still dominating whereas MJ quit (for the 3rd and final time) after his 15th season.
You mean when won MVP, Defensive player of the year. First team All NBA. Scoring champ.
No.. That's when he built his reputation...lmao.
Yes are we counting the years that he COMPLETELY dominated the ball like no other player in the league before or after him.
YES those year's when he was making early exits in the FIRST ROUNDS of NBA playoffs.
YES those year BEFORE he had a Pippen and wasn't able to win ANYTHING (according to Jordan fans Championships are all that matters) of substance.
YES those year's.
Holla
Let's get real, with the Charmin soft defense that is played today Jordan could easily average 40 plus a game every year. It would be comical.
Maybe maybe not all that's hypothetical. No way to prove that.
I keep hearing about how physical the NBA was and how soft Bron is. In THAT era Bron would've been illegal. Bigger and stronger than a Karl Malone, Barkley, Magic Johnson, yet handle like a PG and could get his own shot. Who was gaurding HIM back then? Who would gaurd KD back then?
Those guys couldn't defend (aside from Jordan and a couple others) they just fouled harder when they couldn't gaurd lol.
Allen Iverson gave u a taste of how those guys would've done against the guys playing now when he broke Jordans ankles twice on back to back moves then pulled up in his face...and AI was a midget.
Imagine a KD at his height crossing those guys up lol. I could see the bad boy bullies fouling out before half trying to gaurd these guys.
Fwiw Joe Dumars did ok playing MJ. I think a few guys today could've done pretty good. Not stop him...no one could do that. But these guys are much more athletic and imo wouldve done better than u think.
Holla
Well the coach put him at PG in 89. Moving without the ball was a one of his strengths.
NBA/ABA Leaders
Rank
▲ Player Usg% Season
1. Russell Westbrook 41.65 2016-17
2. Kobe Bryant 38.74 2005-06
3. Russell Westbrook 38.37 2014-15
4. Michael Jordan* 38.29 1986-87
5. Allen Iverson* 37.78 2001-02
6. DeMarcus Cousins 36.50 2016-17
7. Dwyane Wade 36.22 2008-09
8. Jermaine O'Neal 36.22 2004-05
9. Michael Jordan* 35.99 2001-02
10. Allen Iverson* 35.92 2000-01
11. Allen Iverson* 35.78 2005-06
12. Kobe Bryant 35.67 2011-12
13. Carmelo Anthony 35.60 2012-13
14. DeMarcus Cousins 35.41 2015-16
15. Allen Iverson* 35.34 2003-04
16. Tracy McGrady* 35.24 2002-03
17. Jerry Stackhouse 35.16 2000-01
18. Dominique Wilkins* 35.16 1987-88
19. Kobe Bryant 35.08 2010-11
20. Bernard King* 35.07 1984-85
His 3rd year in the league and when he was 41 trying to get Washington into the playoffs.
So his first 3 years he loss to All Time great teams. That won the Championship. Without another All Star. Oh the horror.
Tbh...That's not really an argument.
Those years are why he won 6. Not leave and join up with the Pistons. Like LeBron had too.
1) MJ
2) Kareem
3) Wilt
4) Bill Russell
5) Big O
6) Kobe
7) Duncan
8) Lebron
9) Magic
10) Bird
IMO Lebron probably leapfrogs Kobe Duncan and Big O for 5th all time maybe even surpasses Russell. I dont see how he ever cracks top 3.
I'm.not here arguing how the rules if the game has changed. The way free agency has changed. That is what it is.
Basketball rules have changed so guys play by how the rules dictated. Bron didn't make the rules he just plays by them.
You can SAY that's why he won 6. Some could argue PIPPEN is why he won 6. You know the one that you called a "LeBron James" How many did he win without him?
Again how we got here Im not sure. My beef was with your point that Jordan wasn't ball doninant. Look at the company kept on that list. He is in the top 10 twice.
With perennial ball hogs like Kobe,Iverson,Domique Wilkins,Bernard King, Carmelo Anthony etc. Guys who I call "black holes" once the ball goes in it's not coming back out.
I'm not one to say MJ wasn't great. He was a monster. But Imo for reasons I think we both know the better and better LeBron gets the more and more these false narratives about MJ becomes. MJ was a great defender...no question. But he was also a high volume shooter/scorer on offense as well . For whatever reason people won't acknowledge that.
Bron definitely has his weaknesses for sure. He USED to be a dominant defender who could gaurd 5 positions...not anymore. But Bron imo is a much more efficient scorer, better passer, rebounder, and better all around player. THATS just an opinion of course.
But not my arguing point. Strictly on being ball dominant. Imo he was and stats back that up.
Holla
I've watched more Jordan then you have spoken words...lol
He was their leading scorer of course he took the most shots,..lmao...,that doesn't mean he was the primary ball handler, initiated the offense or was the primary playmaker the majority of the time.
Yes. Pippen played like LeBron does...,,An all around game. He didn't have to score to impact the game.
Jordan played that way in 89. And his stats were LeBron like at 6-6.
They are no more athletic now than they were then. The skill set is different.
Teams did play defense. Now they switch every other play. That's lazy.
They have no rim protectors in this league. He would kill.
Huge sample size...11 games? Ok .
Pippen played like Bron he didn't have to score to impact the game. How is that "Like LeBron" ? You know just last week he had 50/8/8 right? He's averaging like 36 10 9 right now. Is that a good example of how Pippen was like Bron?
Come on man. Miss me with that.
Holla
If you don't think guys now aren't more athletic then they are back then you don't believe in evolution. It's a FACT..
They played defense back then if u call holding and body checks and hard fouls great defense.
Like I said earlier there was Jordan, a Dumars, Rodman, etc who played good D. Their was also plenty bugs who blocked shots during that era so I can agree with that.
What you fail to mention is the number of guys in that era who couldn't create their own shots. It's always easier to gaurd a guy who can't get his own shot. Imo it's the reason guys now are much harder to gaurd than guys were then. Thats something that many don't take into account.
Holla
I would think if you dropped a Durant, Dirk (8 years ago) or a Giannis in the 1980s with their skill set they would dominate even more than now. Athleticism is much more improved just because training has improved. Everything evolves and some of the guys playing in the 80s looked like plumbers..7 footers today do so much more than they did
Those guys couldn't defend (aside from Jordan and a couple others) they just fouled harder when they couldn't gaurd lol.
Listen, I don't really have an issue with anyone saying LeBron is better than Jordan. You're comparing different skill sets, different eras, different schemes, different teams, different rules, etc.. But that statement above is just plainly silly. Where you older than 12 when Jordan played? Jordan was playing against extremely talented defenders like Gary Payton who were allowed to hand-check. This idea that there was little defense in the 90s is absurd.