LeBron or Michael
- Thread starter red scowl
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Can't say I disagree. Shaq was an offensive force. There have been plenty of big men in the NBA with similar height and weight but they didn't have near the athleticism or skill on the offensive end that Shaq had.
Jordan won 10 scoring titles, 9 1st team all defense. Retired for two years in his prime, if not would likely have 8 championships in a row. Lebron has won 1 scoring title and has 5 first team all defensive teams. 3-5 in the finals. He is an all time great player easily the best in his era but he's not better than Jordan imo
Terrible coaching from Lue once again today. Lebron's looked exhausted the last 2 games and Lue still won't sit him for a couple minutes. Lebron needs to get at least some kind of rest during the game. Lebron can play 40-42 minutes but anything above that, as with any player, he's going to lose his effectiveness fast.
Even with Durant going off, the Cavs had this game but Lue's coaching decisions blows it.
Even with Durant going off, the Cavs had this game but Lue's coaching decisions blows it.
I am a Jordan guy but what LeBron does at probably 280 pounds is unbelievable. He is almost never injured, has never had one single scandal or brush with any type of law and philanthropically is someone everyone should applaud.. Some pretty harsh words being aimed at a guy that every young athlete should look up to.
What are you talking about? At 33, Jordan had 4 rings and a NC ring in college... how does 3 rings trump 4 (5)? Again, this is a swing and a miss.
I respect the crap out of Lebron and think he is an amazing player, one of the all time best, but to claim LBJ’s accomplishments destroys Jordan’s, I just don’t get it. Jordan finished his career 6-0 in nba finals... what is Lebron’s record in nba finals? That alone tells me all I need to know about who is greater.
If rings are all you care about then you’re right. You also then must think Robert Horry is the goat since he’s 7-0 in the finals. Why is it a greater accomplishment to lose earlier in the playoffs than to make the finals every year? I’m not even saying Lebron is better but saying finals record is all that matters is silly.
You were the one touting accomplishments, not me. I guess I took that to mean hardware. I don’t know how many MVPs Lebron has, but Jordan has a few. Defensive player of the year... how many does lebron have?
I think you can make a case for either guy depending on which stats you choose to use. But I totally disagree that lebron at 33 destroyed Jordan’s accomplishments at 33. I guess that’s what stuck in my craw...
Throughout the history of the NBA for over 70 years.
How many rings and how they performed in the Finals is all that mattered in the NBA.
Stats are great.
What did you do when the Championship was on the line. Is what the greats cared about.
That's why MJ is the GOAT.
A scoring champion used to be looked down upon. Some of you need to know your NBA history. That's why you think LeBron is so great. He isn't doing any thing we haven't seen before.
How many rings and how they performed in the Finals is all that mattered in the NBA.
Stats are great.
What did you do when the Championship was on the line. Is what the greats cared about.
That's why MJ is the GOAT.
A scoring champion used to be looked down upon. Some of you need to know your NBA history. That's why you think LeBron is so great. He isn't doing any thing we haven't seen before.
Well at least we know where we stand on each others opinion. If you don't think he WAS ball dominant then I definitely question whether you watched Jordan. Either way I guess it's best we agree to disagree and best move on from wasting our time talking about Jordan and Bron...at least in this category.
Then the fact that you call Pippen a "LeBron" kinda validates my point about not talking Jordan vs Bron. Revisionists history...if u ever get a chance to go check some of Jordans user rating stats, shots taken in respect to others get back at me. I'll be here...
Holla
Oh ..so are we now only counting his championship years? Or do we count the entire career?
Holla
You mean when won MVP, Defensive player of the year. First team All NBA. Scoring champ.
No.. That's when he built his reputation...lmao.
I've watched more Jordan then you have spoken words...lol
He was their leading scorer of course he took the most shots,..lmao...,that doesn't mean he was the primary ball handler, initiated the offense or was the primary playmaker the majority of the time.
Yes. Pippen played like LeBron does...,,An all around game. He didn't have to score to impact the game.
Jordan played that way in 89. And his stats were LeBron like at 6-6.
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I just meant he had the same amount of mvps, more finals appearances, more all stars, more total points, rebounds and assists on better percentages (Not including free throws of course). I get if championships are all you care about then he didn't but comparing 33 year old resumes I don't think it's a stretch to say LeBrons is considerably better. Destroyed probably too strong though. Don’t get me wrong, I love MJ, I had a poster of him in my room growing up, he’s amazing and probably still the GOAT. We can agree to disagree, at this point MJ has been deified to the point that people forget he ever missed a shot but he wasn't perfect. He was dominant and at his peak I'd still say likely better than LeBron. But at this point if LeBrons career keeps going like it has he will have a more impressive career as he is in his 15th season and still dominating whereas MJ quit (for the 3rd and final time) after his 15th season.
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This was going so well before you posted this. It has nothing to do with the conversation. Since you're not emotionally strong enough to deal with the fact that you disagree with how he handles himself from an advocacy and political standpoint, you say this. What a tool.
Jordan was MVP at 35
Lebron didn't even make the All Defensive team this year...keep trying though. He hasn't made it since 2014.
Jordan was held to a different standard. Not being on the All Defensive team was inexcusable.
He's only playing hard on one end of the court. Maybe if he played defense and not coward out in crucial situations like last night. He wouldn't be down 3-0 again.
Yes are we counting the years that he COMPLETELY dominated the ball like no other player in the league before or after him.
YES those year's when he was making early exits in the FIRST ROUNDS of NBA playoffs.
YES those year BEFORE he had a Pippen and wasn't able to win ANYTHING (according to Jordan fans Championships are all that matters) of substance.
YES those year's.
Holla
Well the coach put him at PG in 89. Moving without the ball was a one of his strengths.
NBA/ABA Leaders
Rank
▲ Player Usg% Season
1. Russell Westbrook 41.65 2016-17
2. Kobe Bryant 38.74 2005-06
3. Russell Westbrook 38.37 2014-15
4. Michael Jordan* 38.29 1986-87
5. Allen Iverson* 37.78 2001-02
6. DeMarcus Cousins 36.50 2016-17
7. Dwyane Wade 36.22 2008-09
8. Jermaine O'Neal 36.22 2004-05
9. Michael Jordan* 35.99 2001-02
10. Allen Iverson* 35.92 2000-01
11. Allen Iverson* 35.78 2005-06
12. Kobe Bryant 35.67 2011-12
13. Carmelo Anthony 35.60 2012-13
14. DeMarcus Cousins 35.41 2015-16
15. Allen Iverson* 35.34 2003-04
16. Tracy McGrady* 35.24 2002-03
17. Jerry Stackhouse 35.16 2000-01
18. Dominique Wilkins* 35.16 1987-88
19. Kobe Bryant 35.08 2010-11
20. Bernard King* 35.07 1984-85
His 3rd year in the league and when he was 41 trying to get Washington into the playoffs.
So his first 3 years he loss to All Time great teams. That won the Championship. Without another All Star. Oh the horror.
Tbh...That's not really an argument.
Those years are why he won 6. Not leave and join up with the Pistons. Like LeBron had too.
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Maybe maybe not all that's hypothetical. No way to prove that.
I keep hearing about how physical the NBA was and how soft Bron is. In THAT era Bron would've been illegal. Bigger and stronger than a Karl Malone, Barkley, Magic Johnson, yet handle like a PG and could get his own shot. Who was gaurding HIM back then? Who would gaurd KD back then?
Those guys couldn't defend (aside from Jordan and a couple others) they just fouled harder when they couldn't gaurd lol.
Allen Iverson gave u a taste of how those guys would've done against the guys playing now when he broke Jordans ankles twice on back to back moves then pulled up in his face...and AI was a midget.
Imagine a KD at his height crossing those guys up lol. I could see the bad boy bullies fouling out before half trying to gaurd these guys.
Fwiw Joe Dumars did ok playing MJ. I think a few guys today could've done pretty good. Not stop him...no one could do that. But these guys are much more athletic and imo wouldve done better than u think.
Holla
They are no more athletic now than they were then. The skill set is different.
Teams did play defense. Now they switch every other play. That's lazy.
They have no rim protectors in this league. He would kill.
I'm.not here arguing how the rules if the game has changed. The way free agency has changed. That is what it is.
Basketball rules have changed so guys play by how the rules dictated. Bron didn't make the rules he just plays by them.
You can SAY that's why he won 6. Some could argue PIPPEN is why he won 6. You know the one that you called a "LeBron James" How many did he win without him?
Again how we got here Im not sure. My beef was with your point that Jordan wasn't ball doninant. Look at the company kept on that list. He is in the top 10 twice.
With perennial ball hogs like Kobe,Iverson,Domique Wilkins,Bernard King, Carmelo Anthony etc. Guys who I call "black holes" once the ball goes in it's not coming back out.
I'm not one to say MJ wasn't great. He was a monster. But Imo for reasons I think we both know the better and better LeBron gets the more and more these false narratives about MJ becomes. MJ was a great defender...no question. But he was also a high volume shooter/scorer on offense as well . For whatever reason people won't acknowledge that.
Bron definitely has his weaknesses for sure. He USED to be a dominant defender who could gaurd 5 positions...not anymore. But Bron imo is a much more efficient scorer, better passer, rebounder, and better all around player. THATS just an opinion of course.
But not my arguing point. Strictly on being ball dominant. Imo he was and stats back that up.
Holla
It would be fun to see those 10 in a pick up game, but if you were captain, who would you pick first? It occurs to me that Lebron might be the one on the list that doesn’t really have a counter and he could tip the balance of power. It is tough to come up with a player to compare Lebron to, so that makes it difficult to determine where he lands with the all time greats.
Huge sample size...11 games? Ok .
Pippen played like Bron he didn't have to score to impact the game. How is that "Like LeBron" ? You know just last week he had 50/8/8 right? He's averaging like 36 10 9 right now. Is that a good example of how Pippen was like Bron?
Come on man. Miss me with that.
Holla
If you don't think guys now aren't more athletic then they are back then you don't believe in evolution. It's a FACT..
They played defense back then if u call holding and body checks and hard fouls great defense.
Like I said earlier there was Jordan, a Dumars, Rodman, etc who played good D. Their was also plenty bugs who blocked shots during that era so I can agree with that.
What you fail to mention is the number of guys in that era who couldn't create their own shots. It's always easier to gaurd a guy who can't get his own shot. Imo it's the reason guys now are much harder to gaurd than guys were then. Thats something that many don't take into account.
Holla
When someone says that about you. It's a compliment.
Secondly. Pippen does what LeBron does for his teams minus scoring. He had MJ for that.
He also played PG for the playoffs. That's what he was capable of doing if needed.
Sounds familiarly like a description of Lebron.
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So a 40 inch vertical now is different than a 40 inch vertical back then. You just don't remember that's all. No big deal.
Guys can't get their own shots now. That's why you can switch.
There were plenty of people who could get there own shot. Plenty. You just don't remember them.
Defense is about team play not individual defense anyways. A bad defender can be hidden on a good defensive team.
I would think if you dropped a Durant, Dirk (8 years ago) or a Giannis in the 1980s with their skill set they would dominate even more than now. Athleticism is much more improved just because training has improved. Everything evolves and some of the guys playing in the 80s looked like plumbers..7 footers today do so much more than they did
The single biggest difference between now and then is simply the rampant PED abuse in the NBA. You could see it really take off in the mid-90's with Jordan vs. the Jazz. Suddenly Malone and Jordan looked like freaking race horses instead of their lanky 80's selves. The athleticism was very similar. Guys didn't evolve naturally THAT much in 20 freaking years lol. Guys were still dunking from the free throw line then. Remember Dr. J? The Rain Man? The Human Highlight Reel? Some of the guys in the NBA back then were absolute freaks just like the guys in the NBA today.
These days just look at all the puffed up, rounded-out shoulders and traps on some of these guys. The NBA has a joke of a testing policy that all the players know how to game. When they talk about the playoffs being a "different animal," they are simply referring to the fact that the drug testing is done and it's open season. It's why Lebron seemingly never runs out of gas at his ridiculous physical stats.
Listen, I don't really have an issue with anyone saying LeBron is better than Jordan. You're comparing different skill sets, different eras, different schemes, different teams, different rules, etc.. But that statement above is just plainly silly. Where you older than 12 when Jordan played? Jordan was playing against extremely talented defenders like Gary Payton who were allowed to hand-check. This idea that there was little defense in the 90s is absurd.
The whole offensive game has changed these days also and how games are officiated needs to change IMO. Watching these finals the last few years is hard to watch. Lebron traveling, his patented truck move where he crashes the lane with his forearm extended like a Boss brand snow plow blade and then he gets whistles on "contact" (that LBJ initiates while the defender is moving his feet and the official doesn't grant the defender the position where he's sliding his feet to, it's maddening). What's the defender supposed to do? The technical aspect of playing the game is lost and the offensive player gains the advantage or gets the whistle. It's damn hard to watch even with all time greats Durant and LBJ competing against each other.
Fwiw the fact that u mentioned guys were allowed to hand check, rough house tactics, hard foul etc is kinda why I'm saying the defense wasn't as good.
Like you said there were a different set of rules that allowed these things during that time. Now u CAN'T get away with that. You have to move your feet and try and stay in front of much more skilled guys than those guys did during there time.
I'm not saying Jordan wouldn't have scored a ton today. He definitely would have. I will however say he wouldn't have been as good of a lock down defender. Respectfully...those guys weren't as skilled offensively as these guys are today.
BTW yes the glove was one of those who could really gaurd during that era. My argument is that a lot of people confuse physicality and hard fouls with good defense. Those are not nearly the same things.
Holla
I post those as being a Jordan guy. I grew up watching him so I will always be a Jordan guy because watching someone through a childs eyes is much more different than watching as an adult. LeBron is pretty damn amazing though and if I wasnt in my 40s I would probably say LeBron is the better player
The NBA got rid of hand checking (along with other rules changes) because they wanted more scoring. Period.
That’s one small example of why comparing players from different eras is futile.
There is no comparing NFL QB stats from the last 5 years to the stats of QB’s from the 70s. Because the game and rules are completely different.
That’s one small example of why comparing players from different eras is futile.
There is no comparing NFL QB stats from the last 5 years to the stats of QB’s from the 70s. Because the game and rules are completely different.
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I guess you can make the case that defense wasn’t as good in Jordan’s era, but the fact that they could do a lot more on defense suggests that it was just as challenging if not more so than today. Back then, defenders could do a whole lot more than what defenders are able to do today.
The defenders may not have been as good, but they got away with a lot more.
The defenders may not have been as good, but they got away with a lot more.
This is the dumbest thing I have ever seen. The worse part is. He actually believes what he saying.
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