That's what's going to happen when you have zero O-line depth. We had what? 3 walk-ons starting against Ohio St in 2016?
Fall camp, Shortsideoption, great stuff
- Thread starter HBK4life
- Start date
But what about the offensive line?I submit that he has a better receiving corps now than he did in HS
Right on cue...the conspiracy theorist makes his appearance. "I'm happy with either one." Uh yeah, whatever you say.
The fact is...there is a reason why Frost recruited Martinez and not a pro-style QB. There's a reason why Oregon recruited dual threat QBs and not pro-style QBs. A dual-threat QB ultimately works better in this offense. A dual threat QB offers a blocking numbers advantage over a non-dual threat QB.
People don't dislike Gebbia. They dislike the idea that the Kelly/Frost offense isn't being maximized to its full potential to be a difficult offense to defend.
Now, will you finally just stop this BS about people disliking Gebbia? No one dislikes anyone. He isn't a dual-threat QB to the level Martinez is. We saw the distinct difference in their running ability in the Spring Game. At the same time none of us have seen either being a better passer at this point in time.
If I had my choice of who starts this year, I want the one that is more ready, but I ultimately want a dual-threat QB to be the one that is more ready, because it inherently makes Frost's offense more dangerous.
"THE DESIGNED RUNNING GAME
The running game comes down to simple mathematics. Once the ball is handed off, 11 players on defense are deployed to stop 10 players on offense, everyone has a gap to play, and in theory, there should be an extra man available to tackle the ball-carrier. The running quarterback has changed the math in defensive football as he essentially evens up the game and the threat to run the ball makes it 11-on-11, negating the defense’s advantage. Coaches have found creative ways to use this in their favor, having quarterbacks “option” off unblocked defenders, “blocking” them out of the play without actually using a blocker. This is old hat by now as offenses have taken this concept to new levels every season with new ways to option off different players, combining it with misdirection and motion, or adding in “run-pass options” which are running plays that have the ability to become a pass based on how one or two players react to the run action at the snap. Oh, and then coaches decided to add an up-tempo element to all of these concepts, essentially making defensive players react to all of these moving parts quicker and while fatigued.
When you add all of this up, it’s very difficult to play defense in college football today and because it’s so difficult, it no longer takes a precision passing game to move the ball down the field. Just having a quarterback that can challenge the defense as a runner creates open rushing lanes for running backs and wide-open passing lanes for quarterbacks as the defense simply tries to keep up with the multiple options presented on any given play."
https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/college-football-breaking-down-the-rise-of-running-qbs
So you think all of our position groups are good besides 1, but we still only go 6-6? With the way you were describing each position group, I would have thought you were predicting a 10+ win season.
How quickly people forget that putting the best athlete on the field at QB without much consideration beyond that gets you alot of the gripes we had for the last decade about T-mart and TA.
AM has probably the best upside and probably the best fit in the long run.
Potential means in the future though. That future could be October it could be next October it could be next week...it's up to him.
Joe ganz and even Zac Taylor were probably never in the running for most exciting or most talented football players but were very effective on the field largely owing to minimize mistakes.
People act likes it's an offense to humanity if AM doesn't start right now. He still may but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't.
I'm pretty darn sure if he keeps fumbling snaps and carrying the ball like he doesn't want possession of it Frost isn't going to put him on the field no matter what his video game rating for athleticism and upside is.
AM has probably the best upside and probably the best fit in the long run.
Potential means in the future though. That future could be October it could be next October it could be next week...it's up to him.
Joe ganz and even Zac Taylor were probably never in the running for most exciting or most talented football players but were very effective on the field largely owing to minimize mistakes.
People act likes it's an offense to humanity if AM doesn't start right now. He still may but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't.
I'm pretty darn sure if he keeps fumbling snaps and carrying the ball like he doesn't want possession of it Frost isn't going to put him on the field no matter what his video game rating for athleticism and upside is.
SSO, great assessment. From what I have heard, I also agree with your write-up here on the secondary. It is still my believe that Lamar Jackson needs to live up to his potential in order to make that position group successful. From my understanding, it sounds like he has looked pretty damn good at times.Dude has all of the tools to be big time, let's hope that's what we see this fall. Look out for McQuitty, which you didn't specifically mention.
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Hey your dead on brotha, “RIGHT ON CUE” is indeed correct. Gebbia gets mentioned, someone dislikes it, I back up Gebbias corner and here comes Hoosker Du...making sure I realize how off I am....how much better Martinez is then Gebbia...brotha we all know your in Martinez corner. We all heard it before. You can twist and mold into what ever you want. Again I’m for either QB. I just think it’s funny how some fans get but hurt about the possibility of Gebbia beating out Martinez and when I back Gebbia and root for the man...your right on cue (like you said) to point out my mistakes. Hey, let’s change it up. Do the same when the Martinez backers post there stuff. Let’s see you do the same there. Or is it ok because they have the same view as you my man?? Asking for a friend of a friends girlfriend.
We see the same things. Funny how some of us see this and the others don’t. Martinez will get his, he will get his chance to shine. Like you said it could be the first game, it could be months from now or even a couple years from now. It’s not a bad thing if Gebbia wins this battle. He’s a baller and has very good talent himself. Gebbia deserves us fans support as well. I really hope if Gebbia wins this battle the Martinez guys support Gebbia as well and just accept maybe our true freshman just isn’t ready yet....NOTE I SAID IF....IF GEBBIA WINS.
Hey your dead on brotha, “RIGHT ON CUE” is indeed correct. Gebbia gets mentioned, someone dislikes it, I back up Gebbias corner and here comes Hoosker Du...making sure I realize how off I am....how much better Martinez is then Gebbia...brotha we all know your in Martinez corner. We all heard it before. You can twist and mold into what ever you want. Again I’m for either QB. I just think it’s funny how some fans get but hurt about the possibility of Gebbia beating out Martinez and when I back Gebbia and root for the man...your right on cue (like you said) to point out my mistakes. Hey, let’s change it up. Do the same when the Martinez backers post there stuff. Let’s see you do the same there. Or is it ok because they have the same view as you my man?? Asking for a friend of a friends girlfriend.
You're missing the entire point. This has nothing to do with which QB is better. There is more upside to having a good dual-threat QB in Frost's system than there is to having a good pro-style QB in his system. It puts more pressure on a defense.
If all of us were thinking with our heads instead of our hearts, we should all hope that Martinez becomes at least as comfortable with the offense as Gebbia, because it will make our offense more dynamic. If Gebbia is in the backfield, they won't have to put a spy on him, and the defense can force him to keep it on runs, and load up to stop our RB. If Martinez is in the backfield, they might have to put a spy on him, and they will have to play the option and zone read straight up, because Martinez is a very good runner. This is assuming that both Gebnia and Martinez are mostly equal throwing the ball.
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I’m not sure that is true. Just because Gebbia might not be able to break off a 60 yard run, but Milton only had 2 runs over 25 yards last year. Make good decisions, keep the chains moving, and get the ball into the hands of your playmakers. It isn’t the traditional option.
This isn’t about running or throwing the ball. It’s about consistently processing information and making decisions quickly.
I have to agree. On here anyone here who even mentions Gebbia is capable is chastised. Gebbia is capable. He is pretty athletic and is not a statue when it comes to running ability. There is less distance between Gebbia's and AMart's running ability than there was between Frazier and Berringer's running ability and Brook was able to replace Frazier pretty effectively! And that was in an offense that was more QB run friendly! To a tune of 2-3 more QB runs a game!
Yep. You hit it on the head. Make good decisions, get it to the playmakers, and pick up a few 3-9 yard first downs with your feet and he will be fine. I don't care who wins the QB job because it means it is our best possible chance to win. It's fun to discuss, but at the end of the day I think Frost has everyone's trust and if someone is pissed about that, they are dumb.
No, it's very true. His stats bear that out. Who cares about runs over 25 yards? When he ran, he was productive (5.8 yds/carry), which made their RBs more productive also. If there's no threat of Milton running the ball, Killens isn't as effective. Again, there's a reason why all the QBs (7 out of 7) that Frost recruited to Oregon, UCF, and Nebraska were dual-threat QBs (Mahalack was considered dual threat by 247).
Milton threw for 45% against Auburn, but was very productive on the ground (116 yards) on QB runs and scrambles. If he wouldn't have been productive on the ground, they may have been in trouble, because they bottled up Killens pretty well.
Gebbia isn't going to be much of a threat to run the ball. We all saw the spring game. He isn't a runner in D1 football. He may very well be a good passer, but we didn't see anything in the spring game to indicate that he was a better passer than Martinez. He was very impressive throwing the ball in high school, but he still has to prove himself in D1. For that matter, so does Martinez, but we know Martinez can run.
you didn't see it in the spring. You saw what you wanted to see. It was green jersey, no hit practice. It's funny that Frost and Mario say he can run at this level. Based on reports Gebbia is either ahead of Martinez or very close to Martinez at this juncture.
No, I see a QB that isn't a D1 runner, and two coaches being diplomatic. If anything, the green jerseys made him look like a more capable runner. And this has nothing to do with Gebbia being more slightly built. Skinny QBs are fine if they can run. It has everything to do with him not being very quick or fast when running the ball.
I just hope Martinez can pick up the offense in time to get him in there before the start of league play, so the offense can be run at the level we need to have to compete in the B1G. I have faith that Gebbia can make the throws, but believe the offense will be more dynamic with a true dual-threat QB.
I tend to agree with you, but at this point I just anything that Frost does. Great discussion, but in Frost I trust.
Damn I didn't realize Mario Verduzco had been posting here under the name Hoosker Du all these years. Just has all the facts and absolute certainties on lockdown about who is playing better at QB.
You all saw with Taylor Martinez what you get when you hitch your wagon to upside. IF he would have become an accurate passer and IF he would have made good decisions oh man he would have been unstoppable. Yeah, well, he never did. Especially not in big games.
IF Martinez becomes as good a passer as Gebbia and IF he becomes as good a decision maker then he can be more productive in this system. Sounds like he hasn't done it yet, and we don't have any way of knowing IF he ever will.
Milton threw for FOUR THOUSAND yards last year and ran for a few hundred. And yet people are out here swearing up and down that it's the QB with the best legs who must win this job. I can't make the math any easier for you than showing that the passing attempts will be about quadruple the rushing attempts.
This time next year it'll be all about McCaffrey, he'll be the new hotness. Just like Gebbia did to O'Brien.
You all saw with Taylor Martinez what you get when you hitch your wagon to upside. IF he would have become an accurate passer and IF he would have made good decisions oh man he would have been unstoppable. Yeah, well, he never did. Especially not in big games.
IF Martinez becomes as good a passer as Gebbia and IF he becomes as good a decision maker then he can be more productive in this system. Sounds like he hasn't done it yet, and we don't have any way of knowing IF he ever will.
Milton threw for FOUR THOUSAND yards last year and ran for a few hundred. And yet people are out here swearing up and down that it's the QB with the best legs who must win this job. I can't make the math any easier for you than showing that the passing attempts will be about quadruple the rushing attempts.
This time next year it'll be all about McCaffrey, he'll be the new hotness. Just like Gebbia did to O'Brien.
That's total horsesh*t. When healthy, TMart was a superb weapon and if we would have had an even decent defense we'd been a threat to everybody.
I love revisionist history. It tickles me how over 600 yards, and a 5.8 yds/rush suddenly becomes a "few hundred" yards. BTW Beav, you should be embarrassed for suggesting T. Martinez is on the same plane as a thrower as A. Martinez. T. Martinez was an incredible athlete that had to throw when his legs weren't taking him to where he needed to go. A. Martinez looks like a very natural passer. T. Martinez was as quick as they come running the ball, but I'm still of the mind that A. Martinez doesn't have to develop either his running or passing abilities much to become very effective in this offense. His "upside" will come when he becomes comfortable with the quick decision making in this offense.
I also like how coaches pay attention to the numbers advantages of a run-pass QB, but message forum members go comatose when such ideas are presented. As I mentioned, Frost hasn't recruited 7/7 dual-threat QBs for shits and giggles. He knows what he wants. He wants the 4,000 yards in the air, PLUS the stress to a defense that 600+ yards on the ground by the QB puts on a defense.
Frost wants the ability to be able to use something that apparently hasn't registered with this forum...RPO (Run-Pass Option). He has even added MORE RPO to his offense than Chip Kelly had at Oregon. Is a pro-style QB going to be able to exploit RPO the way a dual-threat QB is going to be? By now, we should all know the answer to this question, but apparently some of us don't. He's not adding additional RPO so it looks pretty on paper.
How do we know Gebbia is passing better than Martinez? If there are reports of him passing better than Martinez from practice, vs him processing the information faster... then fantastic, Gebbia will be starting this fall. But the last data we have was both Martinez (10 for 13) and Gebbia (12 of 17) both slinging the ball around pretty well in the spring game.
I have confidence that Gebbia can make all the throws in this offense. From what we've seen from Martinez's arm, I'm pretty sure he can make the throws too. Do I have much confidence that Gebbia can perform RPO as well as Martinez, based on what we've seen from both. No way in hell!
As I've said, we need to hope that Martinez becomes much more comfortable with the decision making process, because if he does, IMO he is going to be more potent in this offense than Gebbia will be.
How about this, huskersalts.. Will I convince you that I have nothing against T. Gebbia if I call the QBs in our program "The Pro Style QB" and "The Dual Threat QB?" Will that convince you that I see them both as nothing more than the abilities that they bring to the offense, because that is exactly the way I look at both of them. I have no preconceived likes or dislikes of either of them. Not one ounce, other than one is a much better runner than the other, and a very capable passer, and fits our offense better. Our "Pro-Style QB" is a tremendously hard worker, and maybe his decision-making abilities will keep him at #1. But I sure would like our "Dual-threat QB" to become much more comfortable making decisions, so we can take advantage of his abilities with RPO.
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Thoughts on this guy?
His career -290 yards rushing in college and 147 in the pros certainly didn’t help him go 14-4 as a starter in Kelly’s offense (while making the pro bowl), nor win Super Bowl MVP while improving throughout the playoffs as Pederson brought in more and more of Kelly’s RPO concepts. And he’s certainly not a generational talent because
In reality, much of an RPO package of plays isn’t based on the QB being a running threat (certainly in a few variation of plays it is), so adding more RPO mostly favors a QB that makes very fast and accurate decisions (with good diagnosis pre-snap and immediately after the snap). Edit: for example, whereas in Tommie’s offense, we might have keyed off a LB to decide whether to pitch or keep on a speed option, an RPO would key off the same LBs initial steps to decide whether to hand off or throw a bubble screen. There are some RPO plays where the QB is both options, but often it is someone else running or him throwing. Adding a QB run element can further help with spacing, freezing defenders, disguising plays, etc., but RPO can be very effective without a running QB and doesn’t need one for success. Unlike other option offenses (zone read heavy offense, triple option, etc.)
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I learned today that 600 yards is more important than 4,000 yards. I think that's why we're all on this board, to learn new things.
Keep practicing your boo for when Gebbia wins the job and you're in the stands screaming for Martinez when he has a rough drive or two.
Keep practicing your boo for when Gebbia wins the job and you're in the stands screaming for Martinez when he has a rough drive or two.
Thoughts on this guy?
His career -290 yards rushing in college and 147 in the pros certainly didn’t help him go 14-4 as a starter in Kelly’s offense (while making the pro bowl), nor win Super Bowl MVP while improving throughout the playoffs as Pederson brought in more and more of Kelly’s RPO concepts. And he’s certainly not a generational talent because
In reality, much of an RPO package of plays isn’t based on the QB being a running threat (certainly in a few variation of plays it is), so adding more RPO mostly favors a QB that makes very fast and accurate decisions (with good diagnosis pre-snap and immediately after the snap). Edit: for example, whereas in Tommie’s offense, we might have keyed off a LB to decide whether to pitch or keep on a speed option, an RPO would key off the same LBs initial steps to decide whether to hand off or throw a bubble screen. There are some RPO plays where the QB is both options, but often it is someone else running or him throwing. Adding a QB run element can further help with spacing, freezing defenders, disguising plays, etc., but RPO can be very effective without a running QB and doesn’t need one for success. Unlike other option offenses (zone read heavy offense, triple option, etc.)
I guess that must be why Frost has recruited 7 out of 7 dual-threat QBs for his offenses at Oregon, UCF, and Nebraska then, right?
I'm sure RPO has different definitions for pro or college, because QBs aren't going to run the ball nearly as often, but it's obvious Frost would rather have a dual-threat QB to run his college offense.
What if I told you Tristan Gebbia has legs...
So you're pissed you don't understand blocking numbers, or why Frost would rather have a dual-threat QB, and you're lashing out. Hey, no problem that you're not up to speed, but at least try to appear that you are maintaining composure.
Why keep him around if he can’t do the job? Frost has Martinez and Bunch and the walk on Masker this year, Vedral and McCaffery next year, the kid from Alabama the following year. If he truly believes Gebbia couldn’t do what he wanted and needed him to do, why keep the kid? Why not let him go the way of POB? Why not go full steam after Burrow this summer? Why announce that it is down to 2 with one of them not being a DT QB named Bunch.
Too lazy to find the article now, but Frost has been pretty clear as to his requirements for a QB. The kid can’t be a clydesdale, but just has to take the yardage on offer,
Memphis (#2 scoring offense, #4 total offense, 22 QB rushing yards)
Oklahoma State (#4 scoring offense, #2 total offense, 35 QB rushing yards)
and others don’t necessarily agree (certainly many successful RPO college offenses with and without a running QB).
I guess that must be why Frost has recruited 7 out of 7 dual-threat QBs for his offenses at Oregon, UCF, and Nebraska then, right?
Definitely not arguing he doesn’t want a DT QB. Just not understanding the argument that incorporating more RPO this year is an indicator that we will favor a running QB this year since it is also a great idea by playing off Gebbia’s strengths.
LOL! Now I know you're just creating a narrative just to argue. Who said "he can't do the job?" I think you're confusing me with someone else. He can do the job, if you want to pass the ball down the field and hand off to another player, but that isn't taking advantage of why dual-threat QBs have become so popular in college offenses. When you have a QB that isn't a great runner, he is wasted space when he hands the ball off without the threat of running. That gives the defense a numbers advantage.
Not once have any of you guys addressed this issue. That is a big deal for an offense, to be at equal numbers. It's the reason why Frost has recruited nothing but dual-threat QBs. It puts much more pressure on a defense. Frost will use a non-dual-threat QB if he has to, but if you remember, he immediately went after Martinez once he got hired. He was the first player he went after. That wasn't just by chance.
I think that's accurate, the offense requires a playmaker but he does not have to be a great runner just able to run enough to keep the defense off balance
Except I did and you didn’t reply to that part of my post
RPO with a passing QB evens out the numbers to 10v10 by removing a defender by putting him in conflict. Numbers don’t have to be 11v11 to be equal.
Just because he went after Martinez will not change his decision making process.
If Frost didn't think there was an advantage to a dual-threat QB, why was Martinez one of, if not the very first player he went after? He wants a mobile QB running his offense. Because it offers a numbers advantage over a non-running QB, which Gebbia is more of a pro-style QB than a dual-threat QB. We've all seen this.
