Martinez and it isn't close. Despite his atrocious throwing mechanics he was a better passer and far better runner when healthy than Armstrong.
Who was the better Husker QB?
- Thread starter Pennsyhusker
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TM had one year with an OC struggling to unlearn WCO whereas Armstrong had two years with an OC that mildly coached to the talent on the field. With a capable OC my guess is Armstrong would guide the team better.
Denny Clairage (sp) really took Nebraska to first bowl win for BD. I think it was against Auburn. Rember watching the game, but I was very young then
BD's first bowl win at NU was against Miami in the Gotham bowl.
But the real big win that year with Claridge was against Michigan in the Big House
I think that TM is already being remembered more fondly than just a few years ago...as time goes on he will become even more well liked and honestly if he had the personality that captivated fans a bit more I think it is safe to say that he would be much higher on the lists with an * of
He had crappy coaching
He had a crappy OL
Things like that.
He had crappy coaching
He had a crappy OL
Things like that.
In terms of raw talent and suitability for the offense he ran, I would rate Crouch as the most talented QB in Husker history. You put him on those 94-95 teams and I would wager he would have put up truly huge numbers in the option game. His throwing was as accurate as Frazier's, he was faster than Frazier, he had more shake and bake than Frazier in the open field, he was just as good as Frazier in running the option, he held onto the ball as well as Frazier, he was more durable (perhaps) than Frazier, and he had just as high a football IQ as Frazier.
Crouch wouldn't put up huge numbers on those teams for the same reasons Frazier didn't: most of the games were over by halftime. Our backups were in as early as the second quarter in some games and it probably cost Frazier the Heisman his senior year. You also have to account for the fact that our RBs were balling out and putting up huge numbers themselves.
As for the Crouch vs. Frazier argument, you either favor the extra size Tommie brought, or the speed of Crouch. I'll never take another QB over #15 though.
Good points. And don't get me wrong ... I loved Frazier. It is also hard for me to ignore Gill. Put Gill on that 95 team and see what he could do. And that is what is so hard about assessing Frazier. He was obviously a truly great talent. But he was surrounded by the greatest collection of talent in Husker history. What would Gill or Crouch have done in 95? Or even McCant? Conversely, how would Frazier have done surrounded by the talent Crouch had in 1999-2001?
I think it is best just to say that players like Frazier, Frost, Gill and Crouch were all great and comparing them is almost impossible.
Won't necessarily disagree - but Tommie Frazier was the embodied reboot of Nebraska football, and without him I'm not sure the 90's feel the same, even with Berringer winning all those games as a hypothetically-undisputed starter - or Crouch in that hypothetical world. There was great talent all around, but I feel Frazier put a cherry on top of the whole program, and decade.
If I remember correctly, Crouch ran a 4.47 at the combine. I think Taylor could be right in that range for 40 yards, but in a 100 yard race I have no doubt Taylor dusts Crouch. Taylor had that extra gear that is very rare for any position.
TA & here are a few reasons why
Exhibit A) The Georgia rule. T-Mart lost to UGA in the Capital one bowl in the 2012-2013 season. Tommy beat UGA in the Gator bowl the next year.
Exhibit B) Tommy was 2-1 in bowl games with wins over UGA & UCLA. Lone lost was due to bad coaching, not Tommy. T-Mart was 0-3 in bowl games.We lost all 3 by 2 TDs or more
Exhibit C) T-Mart's highlight film is filled with amazing runs. Tommy's is filled a mix of runs and throws. Tommy got his teammates more involved and did not try to do it all on his own.
Exhibit D) Tommy was a leader with a love for the game. T-Mart was a recluse.
Exhibit E) The 2013 season. Who did you honestly want @ QB? T-mart or Tommy? Tommy went into Ann Arbor & beat Old blue. T-mart lost to Minnesota
Exhibit F) Tommy was way more of a game manager. He could put drives together better than T-Mart could. Like the amazing clip JLB321 posted of T-Magics run in the B1G championship. It's a hell of a play but we sure as hell could have used a 76 yard drive there vs a 76 year big play. Inability to put drives together is what killed me with Taylor. Sometimes you gotta give your D a breather.
Neither of them were great but both are and will always be Huskers & they both have my respect for ever.
Exhibit A) The Georgia rule. T-Mart lost to UGA in the Capital one bowl in the 2012-2013 season. Tommy beat UGA in the Gator bowl the next year.
Exhibit B) Tommy was 2-1 in bowl games with wins over UGA & UCLA. Lone lost was due to bad coaching, not Tommy. T-Mart was 0-3 in bowl games.We lost all 3 by 2 TDs or more
Exhibit C) T-Mart's highlight film is filled with amazing runs. Tommy's is filled a mix of runs and throws. Tommy got his teammates more involved and did not try to do it all on his own.
Exhibit D) Tommy was a leader with a love for the game. T-Mart was a recluse.
Exhibit E) The 2013 season. Who did you honestly want @ QB? T-mart or Tommy? Tommy went into Ann Arbor & beat Old blue. T-mart lost to Minnesota
Exhibit F) Tommy was way more of a game manager. He could put drives together better than T-Mart could. Like the amazing clip JLB321 posted of T-Magics run in the B1G championship. It's a hell of a play but we sure as hell could have used a 76 yard drive there vs a 76 year big play. Inability to put drives together is what killed me with Taylor. Sometimes you gotta give your D a breather.
Neither of them were great but both are and will always be Huskers & they both have my respect for ever.
This is one debate that can go on forever. Too many variables for me to decide. One thing I can never agree on is the value TA would have brought to an option based game Nebraska formerly ran. He probably could have developed the feel for it over time but when he ran option football reading lineman, D ends. pitch relationship, etc, I just didn't see natural instincts there. But then, I watched Brook Berringer in HS and never saw him display option characteristics so there is that.
you have a good point ... in the spirit of fairness I will go back and watch every play of Tommy's in conference championship games in order to post his highlights
I will also rewatch every game of the season where Tommy was either 1st or 2nd team all conference and post his highlights
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you have a good point ... in the spirit of fairness I will go back and watch every play of Tommy's in conference championship games in order to post his highlights
I will also rewatch every game of the season where Tommy was either 1st or 2nd team all conference and post his highlights
Haha. Hey, I am not knocking the play or the clip. It's a hell of a run and shows TA was a hell of an athlete. Taylor's highlight film would be much more entertaining than Tommy's, that I will give you. But a Hero is not needed @ QB IMO. A leader yes. A guy who will work with his teammates to make plays, yes. Not a guy who is going to try to do it all on his own. QB's cant lead only by example.
Having said that, I believe we have 3 QBs on our current roster who will be better than both TM & TA.
agree with the last statement
personally of the 2 I will take the QB with the:
better W/L record
2 divisional titles vs none
a 1st team all conference season vs none
better completion %
better yards per carry
better TD:INT ratio
better QB rating
leadership is difficult to quantify - but for me I will take the QB that led his team to 2 divisional titles in basically 3 years and was ranked at the end of the season all 3 of those years vs the other that led his team to zero divisional titles and was only ranked in 1 of his 4 years.
one QB also has the distinction of being on the mount rushmore of Husker QBs in the modern era that led his team to a losing record
respect everyone's opinion but I think the numbers support TM
looking forward to the season
Handheld times. I believe they were both 11 second 100 guys when the electronic timers came out.
While T-Mart had a leg for an arm I would take a healthy freshman Martinez over Tommy all day everyday.
I started watching religiously in 1992.. so I will go from there.
1. Tommie Frazier... sure he had the most talented team of all time surrounding him.. and had an all time great defense supporting him.. but you can't argue with two national championships, three title game MVPs.
2. Eric Crouch he is here by a hair over Frost due to longevity, and a much worse supporting cast.
3. Scott Frost.. his 1997 season was statistically one of the best of all time and he was about as tough as they come. wish we had him for four seasons
[big drop off]
4. Zac Taylor... he saved us from four straight losing seasons with his play in late 2005 and throughout 2006.
5/6 TIE. Tommy Armstrong/Taylor Martinez... these guys are the exact same player. You could go on all day about who was better. Martinez had a better start as the lightning fast freshman phenom but faded after his injury. He could have been the best ever. Armstrong had the big win as a freshman against Michigan and then won the bowl game. Martinez had all time great RBs with Helu, Burkhead and Ameer. After Ameer graduated, Tommy was doing it by himself at many times during his junior and senior year. Martinez won two division titles, but Armstrong won two bowl games. Both guys had a few injuries, but were tough and played as much as they could. Both guys went down with injury to end their career. neither had a great defense (though Martinez as a freshman had a great defense). Both dealt with adversity... some of it self imposed. Both had coaching issues.. Armstrong was maybe a better leader... Martinez was maybe more coachable..
7. Jammal Lord.. one of the best pure running QBs we've ever had. Terrible supporting cast.. I thought about putting him above TA/TM but he just couldn't get it done through the air.
8. Joe Ganz... would probably be much higher if Callahan started him in 2007 but he played well in 2008. Was not as physically talented as the rest of this list. People like to romanticize his play in 2008 but he really played above and beyond his talent at times. There were a couple of rough blowouts that year where he couldn't get out of his way (the whole team though really)
9. Zac Lee... would have been higher if he was healthy... but he was a tough guy who stuck it out all season despite being injured. a lot of people like to play "what if" for 2010 with Zac Lee as starting QB. He played very well in the 2009 Holiday Bowl but got into the "Pelini Doghouse"
10. Sam Keller... king of the checkdowns. he had good stats when playing from behind in huge blowouts. he had no support from the team.. and we improved when Ganz came in.
Incomplete -- Bobby Newcombe.. could have been the best ever. Wish Solich would have kept the dual QB system with him and Crouch... teams did not know what was coming when both were on the field and both could take the snap on any given play. Crouch had incredible game against California playing QB, RB, and WR... so solich decided to put him at QB full time rather than staying with what was so dynamic (i.e. moving him all over the field).
1. Tommie Frazier... sure he had the most talented team of all time surrounding him.. and had an all time great defense supporting him.. but you can't argue with two national championships, three title game MVPs.
2. Eric Crouch he is here by a hair over Frost due to longevity, and a much worse supporting cast.
3. Scott Frost.. his 1997 season was statistically one of the best of all time and he was about as tough as they come. wish we had him for four seasons
[big drop off]
4. Zac Taylor... he saved us from four straight losing seasons with his play in late 2005 and throughout 2006.
5/6 TIE. Tommy Armstrong/Taylor Martinez... these guys are the exact same player. You could go on all day about who was better. Martinez had a better start as the lightning fast freshman phenom but faded after his injury. He could have been the best ever. Armstrong had the big win as a freshman against Michigan and then won the bowl game. Martinez had all time great RBs with Helu, Burkhead and Ameer. After Ameer graduated, Tommy was doing it by himself at many times during his junior and senior year. Martinez won two division titles, but Armstrong won two bowl games. Both guys had a few injuries, but were tough and played as much as they could. Both guys went down with injury to end their career. neither had a great defense (though Martinez as a freshman had a great defense). Both dealt with adversity... some of it self imposed. Both had coaching issues.. Armstrong was maybe a better leader... Martinez was maybe more coachable..
7. Jammal Lord.. one of the best pure running QBs we've ever had. Terrible supporting cast.. I thought about putting him above TA/TM but he just couldn't get it done through the air.
8. Joe Ganz... would probably be much higher if Callahan started him in 2007 but he played well in 2008. Was not as physically talented as the rest of this list. People like to romanticize his play in 2008 but he really played above and beyond his talent at times. There were a couple of rough blowouts that year where he couldn't get out of his way (the whole team though really)
9. Zac Lee... would have been higher if he was healthy... but he was a tough guy who stuck it out all season despite being injured. a lot of people like to play "what if" for 2010 with Zac Lee as starting QB. He played very well in the 2009 Holiday Bowl but got into the "Pelini Doghouse"
10. Sam Keller... king of the checkdowns. he had good stats when playing from behind in huge blowouts. he had no support from the team.. and we improved when Ganz came in.
Incomplete -- Bobby Newcombe.. could have been the best ever. Wish Solich would have kept the dual QB system with him and Crouch... teams did not know what was coming when both were on the field and both could take the snap on any given play. Crouch had incredible game against California playing QB, RB, and WR... so solich decided to put him at QB full time rather than staying with what was so dynamic (i.e. moving him all over the field).
TM3 by a country mile when he was healthy. He was a good runner and he was evasive. He wasn't a jitterbug type, but he found a way to weave through plenty of defenses for long runs. It wasn't just straight-line speed. And he was healthy his junior year and it showed. He was a true dual threat, a much much much much much much better passer than TA ever was. He even knew how to throw to a Tight End! He lead many come from behind wins. You don't just do that without heart and leadership. It really is too bad that we had some of the worst defenses ever when he was our QB or we probably would have won a few conference championships.
You serious Clark or being sarcastic? Slight edge to TA (for me) or slight edge TM (for others). Pretty much a tie at best, hence why we're so excited for Lee. 8 years of pretty much the same average to below average QB play might be over.
This really has to stop. TMarts play may have been frustrating at times, but many times it was electric. He was all B1G as a junior. Neither TA nor TM were average or below average QBs.
Yes they were. Superior athletes but not QBs. Rewriting history has to stop. I like both guys, a lot even though it doesn't seem like it, but they had some serious limitations for what the position required.
You forget, before all of Crouch' shoulder and elbow surgeries. He could throw the ball almost as well as he ran.
Wow good catch! I legitimately did not think of Dailey. My brain must have blocked out the trauma from when he ran out of bounds after the time expired against Southern Miss rather than throwing the ball into the end zone.
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