Triple ovt Kansas and Oklahoma wow on ESPN
- Thread starter Redblooded
- Start date
What a game. That was nuts. Honestly thought it was going to go to 4 OT. Wondering about that in-bounds play with 13 seconds to go in 3OT...that defender was in Hield's face and jumping all over the side line...is that a legal play? Still, what a game.
Could have definitely been called - but I was actually amazed at how even-handed the officiating was in this game, considering where it was played. OU got some favorable calls down the stretch, which was surprising. Bill Self must be losing his touch.
Mason stepped on the out of bounds line 1x prior to deflecting which should have resulted in a warning, the distance itself was not a violation though. The officiating of that game was just awful in multiple ways and in both favors. The players on both sides were spectacular. Hield for Oklahoma was amazing and so classy.
Interesting note: Buddy Hield(OU) and Perry Ellis(KU) both from Wichita high schools in the same HS class combined for 73 points & 19 rebounds.
Interesting note: Buddy Hield(OU) and Perry Ellis(KU) both from Wichita high schools in the same HS class combined for 73 points & 19 rebounds.
Excellent game. Maybe one of the best CBB games I've ever seen. That is what it is supposed to look like when freedom of movement is created and fouls are properly enforced. The players were able to play and athleticism and skill took over in place of physicality. I thought the game was really well officiated. They erred on the side of less contact, which I think is great for the college game. There will always be missed calls and bad calls, there is yet to be a perfectly officiated game, just as there is yet to be a perfectly played or coached game. The tech on Self right before half was warranted and I give props to the calling official for not letting Self bully him. It takes stones to call that. Regardless of the play and call immediately prior, no coach should be allowed to get in the face of an officials without being penalized.
Regarding the OOB, it's hard to know given what I was able to see on the camera. The only thing I could see for sure is that it looked like the OU player wasn't able to back up any further as he was pressed against the scorers'/media table. It didn't look like there were three feet of room on the sideline for the OU player to retreat, meaning the KU player should have been backed off the OOB line. Its easy to speculate about the play and whether a violation occurred.
Ohio_husker - what about the way the game was officiated was awful, aside from the occasional missed call or poor call? Did you disagree with the judgement? Just curious.
Regarding the OOB, it's hard to know given what I was able to see on the camera. The only thing I could see for sure is that it looked like the OU player wasn't able to back up any further as he was pressed against the scorers'/media table. It didn't look like there were three feet of room on the sideline for the OU player to retreat, meaning the KU player should have been backed off the OOB line. Its easy to speculate about the play and whether a violation occurred.
Ohio_husker - what about the way the game was officiated was awful, aside from the occasional missed call or poor call? Did you disagree with the judgement? Just curious.
ThrowBones,
I don't think the officiating was lopsided but it was not good. Both teams were hampered by the officiating. 1st half OU shot 15 FT's to KU 1. Inversely, KU shot the final 13 FT's.
The in bounds at the end was one example as stated. There is really no penalty(my wording for no violation) for crowding the inbounding player but the referee should have stopped play and moved Mason back. There is almost no room on the sidelines at AFH and Mason stated in the press conference that he purposely did that knowing it is rarely halted. They also missed at least one foul committed in the OT that should have sent OU to the line.
Self absolutely did deserve the technical if you read his lips. He was most likely keeping the official from giving Mason a technical(and 4th personal foul) for his reaction to the call which would have also been deserved if Self didn't trump it. The problem was 2 fold on the call. 1. Mason hit the hand and ball only which is not a foul. 2. The ref that called the foul was right behind Hield and had no view but anticipated the call.
The double technical was completely unwarranted and called by a ref 40 feet away for a minor shoulder bump when 2 other officials were 5 feet away who didn't see a reason to call it. That one was John Higgins inserting himself into the game as he does often. This crew was tired and overworked and called 6 T's in 2 games. *they officiated in CA Jan 1, MN Jan 2, AZ Jan 3, and KS Jan 4.
The end of regulation on Mason's drive they missed a blatant forearm to the head on the shot but then called(accurately) over the back on the missed shot with 2 seconds left in a tie game. You either swallow the whistle and let the end game happen or call the foul. You don't ignore one and call the next to determine the game.
KU clearly goaltended a shot by reaching up through the rim to knock it away moving the net in the process(easy call). Seldon's dunk he was pushed pretty hard and that should have been called as it was a dangerous play. Just loads of basic calls that were missed and probably came close to evening out advantage but still poor work.
I don't think the officiating was lopsided but it was not good. Both teams were hampered by the officiating. 1st half OU shot 15 FT's to KU 1. Inversely, KU shot the final 13 FT's.
The in bounds at the end was one example as stated. There is really no penalty(my wording for no violation) for crowding the inbounding player but the referee should have stopped play and moved Mason back. There is almost no room on the sidelines at AFH and Mason stated in the press conference that he purposely did that knowing it is rarely halted. They also missed at least one foul committed in the OT that should have sent OU to the line.
Self absolutely did deserve the technical if you read his lips. He was most likely keeping the official from giving Mason a technical(and 4th personal foul) for his reaction to the call which would have also been deserved if Self didn't trump it. The problem was 2 fold on the call. 1. Mason hit the hand and ball only which is not a foul. 2. The ref that called the foul was right behind Hield and had no view but anticipated the call.
The double technical was completely unwarranted and called by a ref 40 feet away for a minor shoulder bump when 2 other officials were 5 feet away who didn't see a reason to call it. That one was John Higgins inserting himself into the game as he does often. This crew was tired and overworked and called 6 T's in 2 games. *they officiated in CA Jan 1, MN Jan 2, AZ Jan 3, and KS Jan 4.
The end of regulation on Mason's drive they missed a blatant forearm to the head on the shot but then called(accurately) over the back on the missed shot with 2 seconds left in a tie game. You either swallow the whistle and let the end game happen or call the foul. You don't ignore one and call the next to determine the game.
KU clearly goaltended a shot by reaching up through the rim to knock it away moving the net in the process(easy call). Seldon's dunk he was pushed pretty hard and that should have been called as it was a dangerous play. Just loads of basic calls that were missed and probably came close to evening out advantage but still poor work.
Nice comments Ohio. I agree in that overall one team wasn't favored more than the other. With a higher emphasis on less contact this year, I was surprised they let as much contact go as they did.
John Higgins drives me crazy as an official. You get at least one "where did that come from" call a game with him involved. There was worse shoulder bumps between opposing team members just trying to in bound the ball than on the play he called a double T (if guys would stop trying to shoot the ball after each whistle that play wouldn't have even happened...Seldon got Spangler in the head with his elbow trying to shoot the ball after the whistle, Spangler than pushed Seldon in the back and then Seldom/Spangler bump shoulders and get T'd up...).
Interesting player rotation for KU...thought they might give some other guys with fresh legs a chance for minute or two in the 3rd overtime. All guys on the court were laboring big time.
John Higgins drives me crazy as an official. You get at least one "where did that come from" call a game with him involved. There was worse shoulder bumps between opposing team members just trying to in bound the ball than on the play he called a double T (if guys would stop trying to shoot the ball after each whistle that play wouldn't have even happened...Seldon got Spangler in the head with his elbow trying to shoot the ball after the whistle, Spangler than pushed Seldon in the back and then Seldom/Spangler bump shoulders and get T'd up...).
Interesting player rotation for KU...thought they might give some other guys with fresh legs a chance for minute or two in the 3rd overtime. All guys on the court were laboring big time.
For conversation sake, I'll just copy and paste your response and then put my thoughts next to it.
I don't think the officiating was lopsided but it was not good. Both teams were hampered by the officiating. 1st half OU shot 15 FT's to KU 1. Inversely, KU shot the final 13 FT's.
- I noticed that, but I think it mainly had to do with the fact that OU was being very aggressive running the floor. You sound like you know what you're talking about , and you know you can never look at foul count or FTs attempts in a vacuum and determine the officiating was one-sided. I noticed the FT count and thought KU needed to do a better job getting to the rim offensively and forcing OU to defend them.
The in bounds at the end was one example as stated. There is really no penalty(my wording for no violation) for crowding the inbounding player but the referee should have stopped play and moved Mason back. There is almost no room on the sidelines at AFH and Mason stated in the press conference that he purposely did that knowing it is rarely halted. They also missed at least one foul committed in the OT that should have sent OU to the line.
- By rule, 3 feet of space need to be on the sideline. It doesn't mean three feet between players, it means three feet from the sideline to the obstruction not allowing the player to retreat (wall, table, benches, etc). The floor is legal, so the defender was within his rights to press up to and against the plane of the OB line. It was very close, but I couldn't see for certain that the player broke the plane prior to the ball being passed in bounds. Maybe there are some images or video that shows it. I just didn't see it. You very well could be correct. I did see an image of the defenders foot AFTER the ball had been released and was in-play, and his foot was on the OB line.
Self absolutely did deserve the technical if you read his lips. He was most likely keeping the official from giving Mason a technical(and 4th personal foul) for his reaction to the call which would have also been deserved if Self didn't trump it. The problem was 2 fold on the call. 1. Mason hit the hand and ball only which is not a foul. 2. The ref that called the foul was right behind Hield and had no view but anticipated the call.
- I agree - the official was staring at the back of the offensive player and he did not position adjust to see between the players. Thus the call that he made. I'm not saying this is true about this play, but sometimes officials get stuck in a bad spot or lose an angle they thought they wouldn't lose, and they have to guess on a call (no-call or foul). The official didn't have an angle and was forced to guess on the play. Unfortunately for a number of people, he guessed incorrectly. Tough play.
The double technical was completely unwarranted and called by a ref 40 feet away for a minor shoulder bump when 2 other officials were 5 feet away who didn't see a reason to call it. That one was John Higgins inserting himself into the game as he does often. This crew was tired and overworked and called 6 T's in 2 games. *they officiated in CA Jan 1, MN Jan 2, AZ Jan 3, and KS Jan 4.
- If you look at this play in a vacuum, I can understand you surmising that it was unwarranted. Also consider that the official may have had a conversation with the players already about knocking off the chippy stuff and warned them that the next time he was assessing techs. The reason I say that is because it doesn't make sense for him to come from that far without a good reason to do so.
- Crews do not work together on a nightly basis. Higgins worked at the places other than CA that you mentioned, but not with the other 2 officials. no clue where the other two were on Jan 1, 2, and 3, but they weren't with Higgins. They were different crews each night. You're looking at them working 4 nights in a row and ASSUMING they were tired. You don't know for a fact that they were tired. You're guessing they were.
- Higgins doesn't put up with BS, which is what I love about him. 6 techs in two nights is not evidence they were cranky and tired. They had two tight rivalry games on back to back nights, and I would be surprised if they didn't have at least a couple of techs due to the nature of the games.
- My question to you is, what was the impact of calling the double tech? It's not really a big issue, even if you thought it was unwarranted. Point to that as a horrible mistake is a little weak. The double tech is a useful tool. It gets the players' attention, the ball goes back to the point of interruption without free throws being shot, and we're back on our way with the game.
- There is more that I could get into about who called the tech and why someone else didn't, but I'm not going to.
The end of regulation on Mason's drive they missed a blatant forearm to the head on the shot but then called(accurately) over the back on the missed shot with 2 seconds left in a tie game. You either swallow the whistle and let the end game happen or call the foul. You don't ignore one and call the next to determine the game.
- when you say blatant, you mean when they showed the camera view looking through the glass that it was blatant. When off players drive to the hoop, sometimes they move their head to avoid contact like that and sometimes they get contact and then their head moves. Sure, it could have been called, but I had no problems with them not making that call. It's a tough play to see as players converge, and you can't guess on a last second shot. You have to see the contact, and if you think there was contact, you can't blow on it. You have to know there was contact on that play and that it was enough to be a foul. I thought it was a good no-call. I think they got the important one, which was the push in the back on the rebound. In my book, that was the obvious one they needed to get. We can agree to disagree on the contact on the drive to the hoop.
KU clearly goaltended a shot by reaching up through the rim to knock it away moving the net in the process(easy call). Seldon's dunk he was pushed pretty hard and that should have been called as it was a dangerous play. Just loads of basic calls that were missed and probably came close to evening out advantage but still poor work.
- I completely agree with you that it was a basket interference that was missed, but I couldn't disagree with you more that its an easy call. I'm not going to get into primary and secondary responsibility for the BI call on that play, but you had better be 100% sure when you blow your whistle to score the goal. You can't say, "yeah that happened fast and I'm pretty sure this is what happened, so lets count it," If they score it and the video shows it wasn't actually BI, that's worse than missing it. BI/GT is not reviewable, and along with traveling and out of bounds plays, it is one of the toughest plays to get consistently right.
- I don't recall Seldon's dunk. Do you have a clip? Was the defender in legal guarding position?
I'm not being facetiouswhen I ask, but have you ever officiated these types of athletes in a high-pressure situation? The speed these guys move at, how quickly angles disappear and plays like the BI happen, and you calling them easy, basic calls tells me you don't understand the challenge involved. They missed some calls, like I admitted previously, just like every crew in America will do on a nightly basis. I turned the game off on Monday and thought,
1) "that was an awesome game"
2) "there was tons of freedom of movement bc the officials took the physicality out of the game"
3) "that was a really tough game to ref, and they did a pretty damn good job of reffing it"
That crew got a lot of stuff right in that game.
Nice comments Ohio. I agree in that overall one team wasn't favored more than the other. With a higher emphasis on less contact this year, I was surprised they let as much contact go as they did.
John Higgins drives me crazy as an official. You get at least one "where did that come from" call a game with him involved. There was worse shoulder bumps between opposing team members just trying to in bound the ball than on the play he called a double T (if guys would stop trying to shoot the ball after each whistle that play wouldn't have even happened...Seldon got Spangler in the head with his elbow trying to shoot the ball after the whistle, Spangler than pushed Seldon in the back and then Seldom/Spangler bump shoulders and get T'd up...).
Interesting player rotation for KU...thought they might give some other guys with fresh legs a chance for minute or two in the 3rd overtime. All guys on the court were laboring big time
I totally agree on the rotation thing...I like Self a lot as a coach, but he 'forgets' kids a lot, who have done well in the first half...Greene is a case in point(even though he's a punk!)
Well, THAT was stupid of me!!!
Interesting discussion here...I'm probably alone that I LOVE Higgins as a ref...
Interesting discussion here...I'm probably alone that I LOVE Higgins as a ref...
I'm biased but great fans respect a call against their team if it's right. Average fans overreact to any call against their team. Great fans also applaud outstanding performances: for or against. Average fans only applaud their own team.
A pic of Seldon's dunk (and no foul call??). He was 1 on 4 on the fast break...
A pic of Seldon's dunk (and no foul call??). He was 1 on 4 on the fast break...
I agree with your statement completely.I'm biased but great fans respect a call against their team if it's right. Average fans overreact to any call against their team. Great fans also applaud outstanding performances: for or against. Average fans only applaud their own team.
A pic of Seldon's dunk (and no foul call??). He was 1 on 4 on the fast break...
I remember this play now. I looked for illegal contact on that play, but I didn't see any. The first glance looked like there had to be some sort of contact that was a foul, then when they showed it on replay, I didn't see anything that was illegal. There was no illegal contact on the arms during the dunking action, the dunk happened, no illegal contact as Selden was swinging bc he held onto the rim to prevent injury, and the OU player did the same. They were hanging so they didn't come down on each other.
Pretty impressive play by Selden and an almost equally impressive show of athleticism by the defender to contest the dunk and avoid fouling. Both players sprint down the court, Selden dunks, the other contests it, and the both grab/swing on the rim for safety reasons.
Great picture, btw. Aside from the impressive play, it really captures the environment well.
I agree. That pic is a good one and is from the kcstar...
Now, and with the upmost respect, I will disagree with you that they are swinging on rim for safety purposes. All fouls don't end once the ball is shot...you can foul a player on or after the shot. If anything, I think this pic shows:
A clear contact foul on OU...he's grabbing Seldon's wrist AND pushing him in the back. The ref in the picture didn't have a good angle but another official should've...oh well. I thought it was the most blatantly missed call.
It was a very athletic play by both players. Very rare you see a player split defenders outnumbered on a fast break and then dunk (two handed) being contested against a bigger guy. I mean, I know that feeling but not many people do (kidding)
Now, and with the upmost respect, I will disagree with you that they are swinging on rim for safety purposes. All fouls don't end once the ball is shot...you can foul a player on or after the shot. If anything, I think this pic shows:
A clear contact foul on OU...he's grabbing Seldon's wrist AND pushing him in the back. The ref in the picture didn't have a good angle but another official should've...oh well. I thought it was the most blatantly missed call.
It was a very athletic play by both players. Very rare you see a player split defenders outnumbered on a fast break and then dunk (two handed) being contested against a bigger guy. I mean, I know that feeling but not many people do (kidding)
Just curious if any of you who've posted on here have officiated basketball before? I do realize there are terrible officials and some (like Valentine) who love to showboat and be part of the game. I think Higgins is as good as there is. He doesn't let anything influence him.
I used to ref high school and did a few small college games. Let me tell you-- when you get even to DIII the game is soooo fast it's scary. Hands, feet, the pace of play, etc. Good luck getting everything right, and you better be totally focused for 40 minutes. If you have a partner who falls asleep you're toast. So take it easy on officials who are trying. You can pretty much tell who cares and who just wants to be in control.
I used to ref high school and did a few small college games. Let me tell you-- when you get even to DIII the game is soooo fast it's scary. Hands, feet, the pace of play, etc. Good luck getting everything right, and you better be totally focused for 40 minutes. If you have a partner who falls asleep you're toast. So take it easy on officials who are trying. You can pretty much tell who cares and who just wants to be in control.
Higgins is to KU basketball as Greg Burks is to Nebraska football. This was a great game between two great teams. It's too bad the officials weren't up to the task. There were plenty of blown calls both ways, but the foul/technical on Self was reprehensible. And the sequence at the end of regulation. You can't ignore the foul on Mason and then call over-the-back on Lucas. That call would have single-handedly decided the game if OU hadn't missed their FT. The out-of-bounds thing at the end was the proper call. Defender can't cross the plane is what the rule says.
Higgins didn't call the technical foul on Self. It was called by the guy on the receiving end of Self's temper tantrum.
And I realize Self was reacting to a bad call, but if you aren't going to call a T on a coach - even one who thinks he's entitled to do whatever the Hell he wants - who storms out onto the court and screams in an official's face, why even have technical fouls in the rule book?
Well I know that Higgins wasn't the one who called it, but it was his crew. And the other had to call the T at that point. But the initial call was so ridiculous. Those two were going at it before and it seemed more like a 'I'll show him who's boss' call more than just a missed call.
A bad call doesn't give anyone the right to get in the face of an official. From the official's stand point, if you make a bad call, AND you let the coach get in your face and drop F bombs on you, your credibility with the coach is shot. He knows you're gutless. You've got to stick him. Now, if you make a call that isn't correct and you own it to the coach, they'll respect you for it. But what Self did had to be penalized. You couldn't ignore it or try to talk him down at that point. Too late for that.
I didn't take it as an "I'll show him who is boss" call. I thought it was an "I will not allow the inmate to run the asylum" call. If you don't penalized Self for that action, good luck controlling him the rest of the game.
That's 100% right. Even at the small college level, things move FAST. You lose angles really quickly that you thought you could hold. All of a sudden, boom, something happens and you didn't see it. You can hope your partners saw it, but chances are they are busy officiating their own primaries, so they're not coming fishing in my primary unless its an elephant. I officiate mid-major D1, D2, D3, NAIA, NJCAA, and some high school on Friday nights. I like to share my perspective when I have the time. I'm happy to agree to disagree with folks as long as we're respectful of one another.
I have a second screen name, GBRASAP, but I can never remember passwords, as I'm not on here often, so which ever password I can remember is the screen name I sign in under. Not sure if that breaks any rules. If it does, Mods let me know.
Turned down tickets to that game..Did get to see Nebraska Indiana and Creighton Georgetown while I was back in town
Throwbones and nwualum. Thanks for the insight. I do not have basketball officiating experience, only some football, and my knowledge is not near yours on the fine points. I can appreciate the difficulties of those guys and respect them for it. They clearly would do better than 99% of the population yelling at them from my couch. That is a reason I question doing that travel schedule with those level of games. Mental and physical exhaustion would have to affect their performance no matter how adept they are at the job.
On the end of regulation and end of half plays respectively I will point out that for one instance you said position and view affect the ability to make a call but with opposing arguments. I know the situations were slightly different but were really similar
I also have no fault individually with the no call on the drive and the foul call on the ensuing rebound. Both had valid reasons for being called or not, but when put together in the situation I thought they were counterproductive. They refrained from calling contact on a shot from 2ft that without that contact probably had a 50% or better chance of being made. The foul was called on the rebound that if no contact was made the player had astronomical odds against him making a deciding play in the final 2 seconds and 90 feet away.
In the end, the game was fantastic and gives us good debate.
On the end of regulation and end of half plays respectively I will point out that for one instance you said position and view affect the ability to make a call but with opposing arguments. I know the situations were slightly different but were really similar
I also have no fault individually with the no call on the drive and the foul call on the ensuing rebound. Both had valid reasons for being called or not, but when put together in the situation I thought they were counterproductive. They refrained from calling contact on a shot from 2ft that without that contact probably had a 50% or better chance of being made. The foul was called on the rebound that if no contact was made the player had astronomical odds against him making a deciding play in the final 2 seconds and 90 feet away.
In the end, the game was fantastic and gives us good debate.
If that Technical foul play with Mason happened on the other side of the court, and not right in front of Self, I doubt Self gets T'd up. I don't think Self knew it at the time, but he did likely save Mason from getting a T by getting in the officials face and drawing his attention. Self was in the face of the official to begin with (before the call even happened). Self deserved the T but keep in mind many coach's are constantly outside of the coaching box during the game. Great game and discussion.
