OT: Union Pacific

[Tuco Salamanca]

I get questioning and it should be in some cases. But I hate the narrative; "Fat cats are sitting around not doing much, while the poor labor force who are all hard workers keep getting the axe."

Clearly I'm being a little hyperbolic, but I hope I'm making my point. Maybe "hard working" was a bad term, but a better term is valuable or productive. Not that the labor force isn't valuable or productive, but I'm sorry, some positions are more valuable and productive (in terms of creating a profit) than others and sometimes those positions are held by the "big wigs".

I guess in my business I'd be considered the "big wig" as I make much more than my staff and unfortunately I've had to let good people go (obviously on a much much smaller scale than UP). It would just be ridiculous if one of the people I had to let go made a statement that I personally had to cut back so they could keep their job. Many times, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

I have also been in a similar position. But I remember when the workload started to increase due to a new product line. I was asked to hire additional staff that really wasn't necessary because we didn't want to overwork the current staff. Then when things slowed down, people were surprised the added staff was no longer needed. They were also surprised that some of the newer employees were the ones we kept because of their production. Of course I was accused it was just because of cheaper salary, maybe, or maybe it was that the new person worked more efficiently AND was less expensive. Tough decisions are made every day.

 

[sparky62]

Why isn't dedication one of the choices?

 

[Enrozes]

I guess in my business I'd be considered the "big wig" as I make much more than my staff and unfortunately I've had to let good people go (obviously on a much much smaller scale than UP). It would just be ridiculous if one of the people I had to let go made a statement that I personally had to cut back so they could keep their job. Many times, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

Why would that be a ridiculous complaint? Ultimately aren't you forcing them to cut back (in the sense that they're losing their entire income) so that you can keep your job?

I understand that there are certain realities in business, and I don't think everyone should be paid the same, but I do think that the gulf in pay between "big wigs" and the rank and file workers in this country is often too wide and unhealthy.

I don't know you or your financial situation vis-a-vis your subordinates, so I'm not saying that this is true in your case or trying to criticize you personally.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

Share the wealth.

 

[Enrozes]

Share the wealth.

Trickle down economics.

Greed is good.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

This is fun!

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

Trickle down economics.

Greed is good.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

This is fun!

Buy or start a company and run it the way you see fit. It's done everyday. Living the dream. It's amazing how fast minds change when it's your money being spent.

 

[HuskerO]

Why would that be a ridiculous complaint? Ultimately aren't you forcing them to cut back (in the sense that they're losing their entire income) so that you can keep your job?

I understand that there are certain realities in business, and I don't think everyone should be paid the same, but I do think that the gulf in pay between "big wigs" and the rank and file workers in this country is often too wide and unhealthy.

I don't know you or your financial situation vis-a-vis your subordinates, so I'm not saying that this is true in your case or trying to criticize you personally.

Good question and I see why someone would ask it (and I'm not taking your post personally). Basically I run my own business (like a franchise) so it's not about me keeping my job (though it can be I guess), but it's about keeping the business afloat. I'm the one who knows the profit margins, profits/losses, ROI, etc while my staff does not so they don't know how it works. At least not near to the level as I do. Which is totally fine.

But, if you don't know how the business operations work and how keeping someone employed just so they don't lose their job while running in the red will ultimately cause everyone to lose their jobs, then you have little to comment on.

Can I cut back some personally? Sure, but I'm the one who risked everything to get this business started and still have a lot of risk on the table.

Now I'm sure you and @chrsmneric are talking more along the lines of the really fat cats like UP, Ford, GE, etc executives and not a small business owner like me, but it's all relative. Where is that line drawn and where does it stop? I will say that I do agree that the pay gap is insane, but I tend to worry about myself and my employees and do what I can to be successful and happy. The CEO of my company making $2 million less per year doesn't change anything to me.

Lastly and fortunately, this is America and the rank-and-file workers don't have to stay rank-and-file. Now they may not become millionaires and that's okay. But they can do well for themselves and have a very comfortable lifestyle if they so choose in more cases than not.

 

[Enrozes]

Good question and I see why someone would ask it (and I'm not taking your post personally). Basically I run my own business (like a franchise) so it's not about me keeping my job (though it can be I guess), but it's about keeping the business afloat. I'm the one who knows the profit margins, profits/losses, ROI, etc while my staff does not so they don't know how it works. At least not near to the level as I do. Which is totally fine.

But, if you don't know how the business operations work and how keeping someone employed just so they don't lose their job while running in the red will ultimately cause everyone to lose their jobs, then you have little to comment on.

Can I cut back some personally? Sure, but I'm the one who risked everything to get this business started and still have a lot of risk on the table.

Now I'm sure you and @chrsmneric are talking more along the lines of the really fat cats like UP, Ford, GE, etc executives and not a small business owner like me, but it's all relative. Where is that line drawn and where does it stop? I will say that I do agree that the pay gap is insane, but I tend to worry about myself and my employees and do what I can to be successful and happy. The CEO of my company making $2 million less per year doesn't change anything to me.

Lastly and fortunately, this is America and the rank-and-file workers don't have to stay rank-and-file. Now they may not become millionaires and that's okay. But they can do well for themselves and have a very comfortable lifestyle if they so choose in more cases than not.

Fair answers. I understand and support the need for businesses to make personnel decisions in order to keep the business afloat. What bothers me is the refusal to draw a line on the other end -- the pursuit of not just profit, but MAXIMUM profit, at the expense of employees. I imagine UP could have kept those employees and still made money. Now those employees will be out their jobs so UP can make more money. I will say that if what was said earlier about early retirement packages and such is true, that strikes me as a much more respectable approach.

 

[Enrozes]

Buy or start a company and run it the way you see fit. It's done everyday. Living the dream. It's amazing how fast minds change when it's your money being spent.

I understand. My wife is a business owner. But not everyone can be. IMO we should support both business owners and employees, rather than fetishizing "job creators" at all times.

 

[chrsmneric]

Are you implying that those "big wigs" aren't hard working or aren't as hard of workers as the labor force?

Neither...if I had a business of that caliber...I'd never pay one employee $10million annually vs 100 employees at $100k.

 

[Charlie Marlow]

all isms fail as they approach infinity

 

[huskerfan1414]

Trickle down economics.

Greed is good.

A rising tide lifts all boats.

This is fun!

I love the irony of people who tell others how they should spend their money or cry about needing more themselves "just because" calling other people greedy.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

If I worked in management at UP...I would do everything in my power to make sure I was taken care of first.

 

[huskerfan1414]

Public school education has far too many administrators. The cost effectiveness and fiscal responsibility of our public schools is an absolute joke. Please dont take this as me saying public schools are bad...there are some great schools and educators, but the money handling all the way around is horrid. It saddens me when people think more money=better education. No,
Wanna fix education? Its simple but a lot of people cant handle the truthfullness of the answer. In no particular order...
1. Get rid of the welfare state. Get fathers back in homes. Stop doing parenting for the parents.
2. Give free reign to charter schools.
3. Provide a voucher system which allows students to take their respective tax dollars to put toward the public or parochial/charter/private school of their choice. This will create more competition amongst schools and students while promoting fiscal responsibility.
I know a lot of people want to make parochial/private schools out to be everything evil, but the truth is they want to help students succeed and provide opportunities just like public schools.
Everyone wants a touchy feely, koombiyah answer to the education dillema, and "more money! Pay teachers more too!" Sounds nice and all but in the real world it isnt working and will never be more than a band aid. It might hurt a little bit but its time to rip the band aid off.

 

[Enrozes]

I love the irony of people who tell others how they should spend their money or cry about needing more themselves "just because" calling other people greedy.

Who's calling anybody greedy in this thread?

 

[JohnRossEwing]

Public school education has far too many administrators. The cost effectiveness and fiscal responsibility of our public schools is an absolute joke. Please dont take this as me saying public schools are bad...there are some great schools and educators, but the money handling all the way around is horrid. It saddens me when people think more money=better education. No,
Wanna fix education? Its simple but a lot of people cant handle the truthfullness of the answer. In no particular order...
1. Get rid of the welfare state. Get fathers back in homes. Stop doing parenting for the parents.
2. Give free reign to charter schools.
3. Provide a voucher system which allows students to take their respective tax dollars to put toward the public or parochial/charter/private school of their choice. This will create more competition amongst schools and students while promoting fiscal responsibility.
I know a lot of people want to make parochial/private schools out to be everything evil, but the truth is they want to help students succeed and provide opportunities just like public schools.
Everyone wants a touchy feely, koombiyah answer to the education dillema, and "more money! Pay teachers more too!" Sounds nice and all but in the real world it isnt working and will never be more than a band aid. It might hurt a little bit but its time to rip the band aid off.

Lots of good stuff here!

First off, teachers should be paid like fireman. Period.

Secondly...more schools should team up with unions and put kids into apprentice programs at 16 (not full apprentice pay but close, with the difference going back to the union) so that kids that know school is not for them can learn a trade early on and kick ass in life sooner. There are so many smart and successful people that make an amazing living in trades, let those kids start sooner, let them start getting a paycheck WHILE they are in school and they can see the future that they can have.

 

[Enrozes]

the truth is they want to help students succeed and provide opportunities just like public schools.
Everyone wants a touchy feely, koombiyah answer to the education dillema, and "more money! Pay teachers more too!" Sounds nice and all but in the real world it isnt working and will never be more than a band aid. It might hurt a little bit but its time to rip the band aid off.

No. Private schools, being for-profit, want to make money before anything else. Keep them all away.

 

[Huzkers25]

You're paid what you're worth. I don't make $10 million a year and I probably will never be in those shoes however I know very successful people in those high positions. They not only create (in many cases) thousands of jobs however the pressures they are under to not only sustain those jobs but to also grow the company is tremendous....heavy is the crown type of thing. Most of these people are paid handsomely and most of them are worth every penny. In contrast you get pro athletes racking in $30 million a year to essentially work out, or catch or shoot a ball. How many jobs do athletes create, how many lives are they in charge of, what pressure? And no one goes after them to reduce their salary...it's an absolute joke. I know that's a whole another can of worms but it goes hand in hand. CEOs and other top dogs are usually in those positions from either being intelligent or worked their butts off.

 

[huskerfan1414]

You're paid what you're worth. I don't make $10 million a year and I probably will never be in those shoes however I know very successful people in those high positions. They not only create (in many cases) thousands of jobs however the pressures they are under to not only sustain those jobs but to also grow the company is tremendous....heavy is the crown type of thing. Most of these people are paid handsomely and most of them are worth every penny. In contrast you get pro athletes racking in $30 million a year to essentially work out, or catch or shoot a ball. How many jobs do athletes create, how many lives are they in charge of, what pressure? And no one goes after them to reduce their salary...it's an absolute joke. I know that's a whole another can of worms but it goes hand in hand. CEOs and other top dogs are usually in those positions from either being intelligent or worked their butts off.

Athletes can indirectly lead to a lot of jobs.

 

[Enrozes]

You're paid what you're worth. I don't make $10 million a year and I probably will never be in those shoes however I know very successful people in those high positions. They not only create (in many cases) thousands of jobs however the pressures they are under to not only sustain those jobs but to also grow the company is tremendous....heavy is the crown type of thing. Most of these people are paid handsomely and most of them are worth every penny. In contrast you get pro athletes racking in $30 million a year to essentially work out, or catch or shoot a ball. How many jobs do athletes create, how many lives are they in charge of, what pressure? And no one goes after them to reduce their salary...it's an absolute joke. I know that's a whole another can of worms but it goes hand in hand. CEOs and other top dogs are usually in those positions from either being intelligent or worked their butts off.

All of those jobs would still exist if the executives and shareholders were paid/profited at a fraction of the level that they do now.

The idea of bowing down to "job creators" is incongruent with belief in the free market -- if there is demand, someone will fill it, yes? So why are so many people constantly fawning over the people who create businesses to fill demands? The fact that they employ other people is only incidental and would happen regardless.

 

[oldjar07]

I love the irony of people who tell others how they should spend their money or cry about needing more themselves "just because" calling other people greedy.

It's not really "their" money because money is a social construct and money only really has meaning and value in a social context.

 

[Rocky Mtn Husker]

Public school education has far too many administrators. The cost effectiveness and fiscal responsibility of our public schools is an absolute joke. Please dont take this as me saying public schools are bad...there are some great schools and educators, but the money handling all the way around is horrid. It saddens me when people think more money=better education. No,
Wanna fix education? Its simple but a lot of people cant handle the truthfullness of the answer. In no particular order...
1. Get rid of the welfare state. Get fathers back in homes. Stop doing parenting for the parents.
2. Give free reign to charter schools.
3. Provide a voucher system which allows students to take their respective tax dollars to put toward the public or parochial/charter/private school of their choice. This will create more competition amongst schools and students while promoting fiscal responsibility.
I know a lot of people want to make parochial/private schools out to be everything evil, but the truth is they want to help students succeed and provide opportunities just like public schools.
Everyone wants a touchy feely, koombiyah answer to the education dillema, and "more money! Pay teachers more too!" Sounds nice and all but in the real world it isnt working and will never be more than a band aid. It might hurt a little bit but its time to rip the band aid off.

I know this is extremely complicated, but here we go:

Public Pen$ion x .50 = Problem Solved.


An oligopoly or monopoly is a bit trickier...

 

[GretnaShawn]

I know this is extremely complicated, but here we go:

Public Pen$ion x .50 = Problem Solved.


An oligopoly or monopoly is a bit trickier...

Or just no pensions with public money. There is a reason that the private sector doesn't do pensions anymore and it's because they aren't viable.

 

[sparky62]

Lots of good stuff here!

First off, teachers should be paid like fireman. Period.

Secondly...more schools should team up with unions and put kids into apprentice programs at 16 (not full apprentice pay but close, with the difference going back to the union) so that kids that know school is not for them can learn a trade early on and kick ass in life sooner. There are so many smart and successful people that make an amazing living in trades, let those kids start sooner, let them start getting a paycheck WHILE they are in school and they can see the future that they can have.

Can you explain that quote please?

 

[Toms Wife]

Or just no pensions with public money. There is a reason that the private sector doesn't do pensions anymore and it's because they aren't viable.

I would completely concur. This is the number one financial drain on our schools and the public sector in general. We need to learn our lesson not only from nearly bankrupt states but by looking across the pond as well. Europe's crises is a result of public pensions.

One further note. I would also outlaw unions in public sector jobs. I have no problem with people being able to unionize in the private sector. When negotiations happen there you have both sides having skin in the game. The problem in the public sector is that those representing the people don't have skin in the game. It's too easy to give in to demands from the unions especially when the bills will fall far out into the future.

P.S. With all of that said, I do think the public needs to put pressure on legislatures to stop the massive cuts that are happening around the nation to education. I live in Oklahoma so maybe I am extra sensitive. However, as of last fall (and this year has been even worse...the numbers aren't in yet) we have cut our state education funding by over 27% as compared to spending in 2008. That is not a typo. How is a school system supposed to meet state and national mandates when you have lost over a 1/4 of your state monies? It has resulted in a huge brain drain with our best teachers heading to Texas...even last years Oklahoma Teacher of the Year packed his bags for Texas.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

All of those jobs would still exist if the executives and shareholders were paid/profited at a fraction of the level that they do now.

Appears you are calling execs and shareholders greedy. Which you denied doing earlier

The idea of bowing down to "job creators" is incongruent with belief in the free market -- if there is demand, someone will fill it, yes? So why are so many people constantly fawning over the people who create businesses to fill demands? The fact that they employ other people is only incidental and would happen regardless.

Not sure I follow this line of thinking. Again you said earlier that not everyone can own or start a business. Some people could but choose not to because it's risky. So when those who can and do step up, they should be fawned over because they are filling a need that wasn't being met. There is nothing incidental to job creation. If no one stepped up to start new businesses or create jobs, the number of people who are unemployed would increase. I don't think anything in business is incidental or happening regardless.

 

[Huzkers25]

Athletes can indirectly lead to a lot of jobs.

Irrelevant, so do college athletes. You could easily pay pro's $100k a year and fill out rosters, you can't justify $20-$30 mil a year.

 

[HuskerO]

Neither...if I had a business of that caliber...I'd never pay one employee $10million annually vs 100 employees at $100k.

Hey that's awesome. I wish more liberal millionaires would practice this so they can stop being such hypocrites.

Like this guy; http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/business/article131986394.html

We'll see if it works out for him or not. I really hope it does.

 

[TheBeav815]

Can you explain that quote please?

Yeah, what does that mean to pay teachers life fire fighters?

I'm not aware that FD/EMTs get paid a particularly big salary. If they did, in all seriousness I'd be pretty interested in signing up.

Girl I worked with at my old job worked nights for an ambulance service and made like $10-13 an hour. Count me as somebody who would sorta like people who literally show up to my house to save my life to make more than that.

 

[SnohomishRed]

Oh great another victim - good lord when will it fashionable to be responsible for your own path in life again. Nobody is chaining you to a post to work with a company, if you do not like the management work somewhere else.
If you think CEO's make too much money have the cahones to start your own company and see if you too can make a bunch.

When did this country start raising people to believe that everything that happens to them they do not like is because of some one else - I was raised to believe that was a loser mentality and that you are responsible for your own life

 

[TheBeav815]

I'll never understand how you guys think it makes sense to suggest that everyone should become a CEO and that's somehow a solution. You all understand that's mathematically impossible, right? The market doesn't support that many companies for one, and for another, name for me a business that uses more CEOs than grunt workers. And you can't say government because for every congressman there's still a whole office full of staff.

Honestly, what do you get out of fighting against a push for higher median pay in this country?

 

[Toms Wife]

Irrelevant, so do college athletes. You could easily pay pro's $100k a year and fill out rosters, you can't justify $20-$30 mil a year.

The free market pays people what they are worth, supposedly.

The funny thing is that those who are very pro free market are the usually the same ones against any kind of free market at the college sports level. They are happy with what is in essence a system of communism where players are "paid" the same while a couple of big wig leaders (i.e. coaches) make all the real dollars. Start suggesting that Zac Lee should be paid what his real value is to Nebraska football and all of a sudden people will say, "You can't do that!"

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

I'll never understand how you guys think it makes sense to suggest that everyone should become a CEO and that's somehow a solution. You all understand that's mathematically impossible, right? The market doesn't support that many companies for one, and for another, name for me a business that uses more CEOs than grunt workers. And you can't say government because for every congressman there's still a whole office full of staff.

Honestly, what do you get out of fighting against a push for higher median pay in this country?

Nothing against higher median pay. I have a problem with lowering the peaks to make the valleys happy.

 

[SnohomishRed]

I'll never understand how you guys think it makes sense to suggest that everyone should become a CEO and that's somehow a solution. You all understand that's mathematically impossible, right? The market doesn't support that many companies for one, and for another, name for me a business that uses more CEOs than grunt workers. And you can't say government because for every congressman there's still a whole office full of staff.

Honestly, what do you get out of fighting against a push for higher median pay in this country?

market priced products instead of runaway inflation - pay a waitress 15/hr and your meal just got more expensive and the restaurant gives less hours - so tell me who wins - nobody - Ask Seattle

But I do believe people are making more on average except for the impact of illegal immigrants and the abuse of H1B visa programs - No I am not a wall guy but immigrants in the country illegally normally deal on a cash basis and trust me they are making less than if they had a green card

Also not every company has to be some huge thing a Plumber can start a company and be his own CEO - Everyone wants to be the next Bill Gates when the country needs more Electricians

 

[TheBeav815]

The free market pays people what they are worth, supposedly.

The funny thing is that those who are very pro free market are the usually the same ones against any kind of free market at the college sports level. They are happy with what is in essence a system of communism where players are "paid" the same while a couple of big wig leaders (i.e. coaches) make all the real dollars. Start suggesting that Zac Lee should be paid what his real value is to Nebraska football and all of a sudden people will say, "You can't do that!"

They also ignore that workers complaining or otherwise pressuring owners via slowdowns and strikes is also a part of the free market at work.

You can let the owners and the workers fight it out among themselves, but it's a hell of a lot smoother for the customer to have arbitration and legal requirements. People don't seem to know about things like the Shirtwaist Factory Fire, the Pullman Strike, etc.

I love the saying, "you can shear a sheep all its life, but you can only skin it once." Our wage distribution is getting too deep with the clippers lately. You exploit people badly enough, they're going to raise hell.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

Exploit? Maybe hyperbol??

 

[swissticuffs]

You're paid what you're worth. I don't make $10 million a year and I probably will never be in those shoes however I know very successful people in those high positions. They not only create (in many cases) thousands of jobs however the pressures they are under to not only sustain those jobs but to also grow the company is tremendous....heavy is the crown type of thing. Most of these people are paid handsomely and most of them are worth every penny. In contrast you get pro athletes racking in $30 million a year to essentially work out, or catch or shoot a ball. How many jobs do athletes create, how many lives are they in charge of, what pressure? And no one goes after them to reduce their salary...it's an absolute joke. I know that's a whole another can of worms but it goes hand in hand. CEOs and other top dogs are usually in those positions from either being intelligent or worked their butts off.

Pro athletes aren't overpaid. They are paid what the market bears....they are the focal point of a multi billion dollar business. they possess unique physical talents that are so rare they demand a high price tag.
Without the talent on the field to sell advertising you have nothing.

 

[TheBeav815]

Nothing against higher median pay. I have a problem with lowering the peaks to make the valleys happy.

The peaks issue is tough. It's easy to see that the multiple of CEO to worker pay has never been so skewed in the US. What one does about that is not so easy to identify.

The data is clear, the vast majority of recent wage gains have gone to people who were already making plenty of money. Which fairly well kills the notion that most execs are gonna go handing out money because it's the right thing to do. It also gives you a clear "why" on our tepid economic growth.

The overreach of a few unions did a massive disservice to the idea of organized labor as a whole. That particular snake ate its tail, as I like to say. You can see that in IL. However, UPS is a great example of a strongly unionized company that is still doing tremendously well.

I really wanted a 2nd job there loading trucks at night. I would have gotten something like a $50-75 a week bonus just for showing up when I was scheduled. Ended up going through the whole intake process and didn't get picked because I couldn't work every single Friday, sorta not the point, but those guys bust their asses you better believe.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

You're paid what you're worth. I don't make $10 million a year and I probably will never be in those shoes however I know very successful people in those high positions. They not only create (in many cases) thousands of jobs however the pressures they are under to not only sustain those jobs but to also grow the company is tremendous....heavy is the crown type of thing. Most of these people are paid handsomely and most of them are worth every penny. In contrast you get pro athletes racking in $30 million a year to essentially work out, or catch or shoot a ball. How many jobs do athletes create, how many lives are they in charge of, what pressure? And no one goes after them to reduce their salary...it's an absolute joke. I know that's a whole another can of worms but it goes hand in hand. CEOs and other top dogs are usually in those positions from either being intelligent or worked their butts off.

Not really, you are paid what you can get.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

You keep me interested until you say things like "they make plenty of money".

I make what I make and I earn every dime. What is "plenty" to you is irrelevant to me. Some people spend $20,000 on a tiny house and choose to cram 4 people and a dog into a 75 sq ft room and live. That's plenty for them but not for me.