OT: State basketball - ref show

[huskerfan66]

Someone on the twitter stated that since the ref still had the ball when the play happened, it is a RULE that a technical has to be called. Im not rules guy, and maybe thats BS, but would explain why it was a T and not just a foul.

I wrote that above in this thread. That's what my gut and memory tells me from what I recall from rules book and ref test MANY moons ago. Just not sure if currently correct. You can not call a personal foul if ball isn't officially in play....which it wasn't.

I watched the whole game live via TV. Not once do I recall any warnings given but cameras weren't always on refs etc. It was a spirited game and fun to watch.

My initial reaction was T him up and danged if he wasn't. That's why I say my gut says it's the right call

 

[HuskerO]

I agree 100%. Look at it this way, nobody is going to jerk their head back and fall after that little of contact. I got flat out clocked once or twice back when I played and I never fell down, nor was a foul called. This kid fell back as if he got shot by a sniper.

The bottom line: The official has to know the situation and that ref got played. The way the bench is jumping up and down even as the guy is just starting his flop makes it obvious that the kid was told to do that in the huddle and it worked. It's a bush league move but hey, who cares about sportsmanship anymore? Thankfully, the NBA and to a lesser degree NCAA is trying to crack down on the "soccerization" of basketball. Maybe it will filter down to all levels.

And when they limit the flopping, then maybe they can go back to establishing a pivot foot again.

Did the Santee give a little elbow or not? Also, players have *ALWAYS* flopped whether taking a charge or going in for a layup.

*not literally ever single play towards the basket, but "acting" has always been part of basketball.

Know the situation? That Shelton would try & get a call after taking a slight elbow to the chest?

 

[HuskerO]

Every inbound in the history of basketball has some pushing off.

While the ref still has the ball?

 

[Huskers123456]

While the ref still has the ball?

A couple people on here act like the play had started and he was fighting through Dennis Rodman and David Robinson to get to the ball. What actually happened was he gave a cheapshot before the play started while the whole arena watched.

One of the moms on Twitter said these kind of calls happen to them all the time. Well yeah. I can only imagine what kind of dumb shit happens during a game in December if he is doing that with 7 seconds left in the state tournament.

 

[mgbreis]

A couple people on here act like the play had started and he was fighting through Dennis Rodman and David Robinson to get to the ball. What actually happened was he gave a cheapshot before the play started while the whole arena watched.

One of the moms on Twitter said these kind of calls happen to them all the time. Well yeah. I can only imagine what kind of dumb shit happens during a game in December if he is doing that with 7 seconds left in the state tournament.

And you're acting like the kid actually got hit and it wasn't just a giant flop. Have you ever watched basketball before? Even if I agreed with you that he deserved a tech, you floating the idea that players don't jockey for position while the ref is still holding the ball is laughably wrong. I don't see what can be learned from this other than players should flop a LOT because they'll be rewarded.

 

[Huskers123456]

And you're acting like the kid actually got hit and it wasn't just a giant flop. Have you ever watched basketball before? Even if I agreed with you that he deserved a tech, you floating the idea that players don't jockey for position while the ref is still holding the ball is laughably wrong. I don't see what can be learned from this other than players should flop a LOT because they'll be rewarded.

Jockeying for position? Lol. He had the position. He turned around to push the other kid. Jockeying for position isn't taking a step to push someone.

Yes, I have averaged a game a week of h.s. basketball since December. That's easily the dumbest play I've seen all season. It made no sense. He was the one who should have been waiting to get fouled. Not taking cheap shots. He keeps his hands to himself like every other high school player in America in a state tourney this week and they win.

 

[Dean Pope]

Did the Santee give a little elbow or not? Also, players have *ALWAYS* flopped whether taking a charge or going in for a layup.

*not literally ever single play towards the basket, but "acting" has always been part of basketball.

Know the situation? That Shelton would try & get a call after taking a slight elbow to the chest?

Yep. The official made a cardinal sin by calling what he thought had happened rather than calling what he actually saw.

I love seeing a no call. Just because a kid falls down is no reason to assume a foul has occurred. Unfortunately, officials seem to get dinged in their evaluations if they don’t overreact to players falling down.

 

[HuskerO]

And you're acting like the kid actually got hit and it wasn't just a giant flop. Have you ever watched basketball before? Even if I agreed with you that he deserved a tech, you floating the idea that players don't jockey for position while the ref is still holding the ball is laughably wrong. I don't see what can be learned from this other than players should flop a LOT because they'll be rewarded.

Did the Santee deserve a foul being called on him at all?

 

[HuskerO]

Yep. The official made a cardinal sin by calling what he thought had happened rather than calling what he actually saw.

I love seeing a no call. Just because a kid falls down is no reason to assume a foul has occurred. Unfortunately, officials seem to get dinged in their evaluations if they don’t overreact to players falling down.

You didn't answer my first question. Did the Santee give a little elbow or not?

 

[Dean Pope]

You didn't answer my first question. Did the Santee give a little elbow or not?

He didn’t throw an elbow. I saw a better video on FB. The video was from up in the stands but I can say this.
1. The alleged elbower had his arms down. Elbows are thrown with arms up. At worst, he could have grazed the kids stomach.
2. But that’s doubtful, because at the end of the game a player trying to get open might push off with a firearm or hands. Nobody throws an elbow to get open.
3. The “elbower” was standing between the ref and the flopper. The ref couldn’t see it and that’s why it got called. The ref GUESSED that an elbow was thrown.
4. But the ref should have seen the flopper thrown his head back without being hit by anything but a gentle draft of air flow.

The ref shouldn’t be officiating at the state tournament. You have to know the situation and you have to call what you see. And even if I’m wrong and there was a “little elbow”, that’s not why thy rule was put in place. Otherwise, that call should be made about every time a player drives to the hoop or players jostle for position inside.

 

[SuperBigFan]

Man, I didn't know so many posters lived in that little Class D-2 town.

 

[TampaBaySkers]

Patrick Mahomes would be proud of that flop…and the refs deciding the game.

 

[litespeedhuskerfan]

Patrick Mahomes would be proud of that flop…

Dude.....

 

[huskerfan66]

He didn’t throw an elbow. I saw a better video on FB. The video was from up in the stands but I can say this.
1. The alleged elbower had his arms down. Elbows are thrown with arms up. At worst, he could have grazed the kids stomach.
2. But that’s doubtful, because at the end of the game a player trying to get open might push off with a firearm or hands. Nobody throws an elbow to get open.
3. The “elbower” was standing between the ref and the flopper. The ref couldn’t see it and that’s why it got called. The ref GUESSED that an elbow was thrown.
4. But the ref should have seen the flopper thrown his head back without being hit by anything but a gentle draft of air flow.

The ref shouldn’t be officiating at the state tournament. You have to know the situation and you have to call what you see. And even if I’m wrong and there was a “little elbow”, that’s not why thy rule was put in place. Otherwise, that call should be made about every time a player drives to the hoop or players jostle for position inside.

If the video was from the stands, where and what angle? On live TV they showed 2 angles. One from across the way on mid court then from baseline from santee side. Don't think there's better view but perhaps.

1) No. At one point his arms were down but he brought elbow up pushing off chest and lifting BEFORE ball in play. 2nd half is most important....BEFORE...that's reason for the T.

2) See #1

3) Wrong. Ref that called T was holding the ball on the sideline near mid court in the process of passing it to santee player on sideline in front of scorers table.

4) Salesmanship maybe and perhaps. Whiff of air? Hardly. Again refer to #1. You can't do that.

What rule are you referring to? And I believe official did call what he saw....player A pushes player B with an elbow/forearm before ball in play. Media and people say reason for T was an elbow to the face?? That's not the reason for the T. Had the ball been READY FOR PLAY, that's probably called a regular personal foul.

Your statement is correct. YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE SITUATION. Tell that to player A. 2 point lead and the ball, little time left and your team is about to shoot freethrows to seal the deal. Not smart and poor situational awareness.

 

[Huskers123456]

If the video was from the stands, where and what angle? On live TV they showed 2 angles. One from across the way on mid court then from baseline from santee side. Don't think there's better view but perhaps.

1) No. At one point his arms were down but he brought elbow up pushing off chest and lifting BEFORE ball in play. 2nd half is most important....BEFORE...that's reason for the T.

2) See #1

3) Wrong. Ref that called T was holding the ball on the sideline near mid court in the process of passing it to santee player on sideline in front of scorers table.

4) Salesmanship maybe and perhaps. Whiff of air? Hardly. Again refer to #1. You can't do that.

What rule are you referring to? And I believe official did call what he saw....player A pushes player B with an elbow/forearm before ball in play. Media and people say reason for T was an elbow to the face?? That's not the reason for the T. Had the ball been READY FOR PLAY, that's probably called a regular personal foul.

Your statement is correct. YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE SITUATION. Tell that to player A. 2 point lead and the ball, little time left and your team is about to shoot freethrows to seal the deal. Not smart and poor situational awareness.

Exactly. You won't see anyone else do that in state tournaments across the country. Because no one is going to try and cheapshot someone with 7 seconds left and potentially jeopardize a state title. It's so simple that I can't comprehend what kind of basketball these people watch where this would not be called as a foul.

Apparently players could walk around trying to punch other players and if they barely make contact then no foul should be called.

 

[huskerfan66]

A rule I question and would like to see changed.

Team A has ball on team B's side of the court between free-throw line and baseline. Team A calls timeout. Why does team A get the ball back near mid court in team B's court. Why isn't it where timeout was called? Why does team A get to advance the ball? Give more room for inbounding the ball??

 

[huskerfan66]

Exactly. You won't see anyone else do that in state tournaments across the country. Because no one is going to try and cheapshot someone with 7 seconds left and potentially jeopardize a state title. It's so simple that I can't comprehend what kind of basketball these people watch where this would not be called as a foul.

Apparently players could walk around trying to punch other players and if they barely make contact then no foul should be called.

Well I don't want to get into the "elbow to the face" or "cheap shot" debate of whether it was or wasn't.

The fact is that's NOT why a technical foul was called. The reason a TECHNICAL FOUL was called vs a regular personal foul is the fact that the contact happened BEFORE the ball was ready for play.

Atleast that's MY understanding and recollection of the rule book. I'm not going to go look it up but I'll gladly be proven wrong 🙃

 

[HuskerO]

He didn’t throw an elbow. I saw a better video on FB. The video was from up in the stands but I can say this.
1. The alleged elbower had his arms down. Elbows are thrown with arms up. At worst, he could have grazed the kids stomach.
2. But that’s doubtful, because at the end of the game a player trying to get open might push off with a firearm or hands. Nobody throws an elbow to get open.
3. The “elbower” was standing between the ref and the flopper. The ref couldn’t see it and that’s why it got called. The ref GUESSED that an elbow was thrown.
4. But the ref should have seen the flopper thrown his head back without being hit by anything but a gentle draft of air flow.

The ref shouldn’t be officiating at the state tournament. You have to know the situation and you have to call what you see. And even if I’m wrong and there was a “little elbow”, that’s not why thy rule was put in place. Otherwise, that call should be made about every time a player drives to the hoop or players jostle for position inside.

I didn't say, "throw an elbow".

1) Kids' arms came to chest high, then a "swung" (I'm using that term very loosely) to come across as it hit the Shelton kid.

2) Exactly, the play hadn't started yet so he wasn't even trying to get open. He just flat out tried to take a little shot at his opponent.

3) That's wrong. 2 refs made the call.

4) You're acting the refs didnt see contact being made. Pure speculation.

Listen, the Santee kid gave a little elbow to the Shelton kid. It wasn't a full blown Laimbeer type contact, but the kid purposely made unnecessary contact prior to the play & he got caught. All this while the ball wasnt in play yet which is why it's different than your last sentence.

3 things can be true at the same time. A slight elbow was made, the kid flopped, the elbow contact (for even as slight as it was) was worthy of a foul.

 

[ZaneHickey]

Is this about the voucher scheme to eliminate small public schools?

Hadn't heard about that scheme.🤔

 

[Charlie Marlow]

 

[Big bo fan]

It happened RIGHT in front of the official. ..probably 10 to 15 feet maximum with the ball not in play or ready for play. I think by rule a T is the only thing that could be called. I don't think a personal foul is an option there by rule.

That said, I did see more flopping today than I care to. Youngsters learning from watching bb on TV. Hopefully it's a point of emphasis for next year

You are correct any infractions during a dead ball situation is a automatic T,

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

It boils down to this:
1: Ref made the correct call.
2: Kid had issues with cheap shots the entire game.
3: the above of course means the ref was racist

Anything else I’m missing?

 

[huskerfan66]

You are correct any infractions during a dead ball situation is a automatic T,

Thanks

 

[PvilleHuskerTim]

Referees are evaluated during the season, which goes a long way toward being selected to do the state tournament games (B/G). While it might be nice to say “just let them play and use discretion in various situations” that is not how things work. Refs are evaluated on knowing the rules and applying the rules correctly. Disregarding the rules because there was only 0:07 left is immaterial.

 

[buckknowsall]

I don't imagine this is too interesting to most, but a ref just decided a D2 game between Santee and Shelton. Santee had a 1 point lead and was inbounding the ball with a second to play. There was contact and a Shelton player flopped (my opinion) and baited the ref into calling a technical. Shelton makes the free throws, game over. Just brutal. Video in the link below.

View embedded media

Yea, as a (retired) basketball official, I can attest that there is alot of missing information from looking at this clip. Many times, I would work the players during free throws, inbounds, timeouts, to be like...stop doing that or you do that again, you're getting a tech. I had 15 years of experience that leads me to the conclusion this instance wasn't the only instance in the game.

It may have been marginal from the observer's eyes, but it was also there....contact to the head.

Blue 3 has got to play under control, especially in a tight game.

I'm siding with the ref.

 

[buckknowsall]

Referees are evaluated during the season, which goes a long way toward being selected to do the state tournament games (B/G). While it might be nice to say “just let them play and use discretion in various situations” that is not how things work. Refs are evaluated on knowing the rules and applying the rules correctly. Disregarding the rules because there was only 0:07 left is immaterial.

Agreed. However as a ref, you are also taught to know the situation. Refs never want to decide the outcome of a game (while at the same time, not afraid to make a decisive call).

 

[buckknowsall]

Flopping...Its ruining basketball.

Agreed on this!

 

[buckknowsall]

You're not secretly Bill Lambier are you? Did you play on the Pistons back in the day?

that was funny

 

[buckknowsall]

The ref wasn’t even looking at the 2 players when the contact happened. All he saw was the player falling

indeed, ref didn't see the entire play.

 

[Dean Pope]

I didn't say, "throw an elbow".

1) Kids' arms came to chest high, then a "swung" (I'm using that term very loosely) to come across as it hit the Shelton kid.

2) Exactly, the play hadn't started yet so he wasn't even trying to get open. He just flat out tried to take a little shot at his opponent.

3) That's wrong. 2 refs made the call.

4) You're acting the refs didnt see contact being made. Pure speculation.

Listen, the Santee kid gave a little elbow to the Shelton kid. It wasn't a full blown Laimbeer type contact, but the kid purposely made unnecessary contact prior to the play & he got caught. All this while the ball wasnt in play yet which is why it's different than your last sentence.

3 things can be true at the same time. A slight elbow was made, the kid flopped, the elbow contact (for even as slight as it was) was worthy of a foul.

Here's the video that I was looking at. The ref who was blocked on the play tossed the ball down to call the T. The flopper stood as close as possible to the opponent's side and fell as if he'd been close lined by Hulk Hogan. The "elbower" spinning around like he did is a bit odd. I'll grant you that, but I don't see anything that warrants a foul to be called and neither did the official. But if it was "slight" as you say it was and I'm just not seeing it, I don't think of "slight" elbow contact as a foul. And a state tournament game cannot be decided on something like that. Do you think that same official makes that call on Joziah Dotzler in the same situation against Millard North? Absolutely not.

 

[huskerfan66]

Here's the video that I was looking at. The ref who was blocked on the play tossed the ball down to call the T. The flopper stood as close as possible to the opponent's side and fell as if he'd been close lined by Hulk Hogan. The "elbower" spinning around like he did is a bit odd. I'll grant you that, but I don't see anything that warrants a foul to be called and neither did the official. But if it was "slight" as you say it was and I'm just not seeing it, I don't think of "slight" elbow contact as a foul. And a state tournament game cannot be decided on something like that. Do you think that same official makes that call on Joziah Dotzler in the same situation against Millard North? Absolutely not.

That's the 3rd angle of this I've seen and I will say, if this was the ONLY angle I saw, I might question it some as well.

The other 2 angles were clearer to me. Especially the one from the baseline that you could see side view

 

[huskerfan66]

Congratulations to Johnson-Brock, Ashland/Greenwood & Skutt. BB Champs in session 1

 

[HuskerO]

Here's the video that I was looking at. The ref who was blocked on the play tossed the ball down to call the T. The flopper stood as close as possible to the opponent's side and fell as if he'd been close lined by Hulk Hogan. The "elbower" spinning around like he did is a bit odd. I'll grant you that, but I don't see anything that warrants a foul to be called and neither did the official. But if it was "slight" as you say it was and I'm just not seeing it, I don't think of "slight" elbow contact as a foul. And a state tournament game cannot be decided on something like that. Do you think that same official makes that call on Joziah Dotzler in the same situation against Millard North? Absolutely not.

Lol, the ref had a clear view of what happened. The Shelton player, Santee player & ref weren't in a straight line where the ref couldn't see what happened.

No one is saying the Shelton kid didn't flop. Everyone is saying that yes, he did indeed flop.

Why do you keep saying the official didn't see anything that warranted a penalty? Clearly he did. And since the ball wasnt even in play yet, he clearly thinks the action warranted a foul. Had the Santee player waited, he probably doesn't get called.

Make the same call on a different game? I have no idea. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. Neither of us know & I'm not sure why that matters? He'd either be consistent with his reffing or not in that case.

 

[PvilleHuskerTim]

Here's the video that I was looking at. The ref who was blocked on the play tossed the ball down to call the T. The flopper stood as close as possible to the opponent's side and fell as if he'd been close lined by Hulk Hogan. The "elbower" spinning around like he did is a bit odd. I'll grant you that, but I don't see anything that warrants a foul to be called and neither did the official. But if it was "slight" as you say it was and I'm just not seeing it, I don't think of "slight" elbow contact as a foul. And a state tournament game cannot be decided on something like that. Do you think that same official makes that call on Joziah Dotzler in the same situation against Millard North? Absolutely not.

In looking at the FB video you showed, the Trail (ref inbounding the ball) and Center (ref on opposite side of the court) officials both raise their hand nearly at the same time. That would lead a person to think both were watching that area, not just the Trail official. In the longer Twitter video you can hear the announcers talking and indicating the refs apparently said something to the players as a warning to keep it clean. Also leads a person to believe the refs knew the situation and were trying to keep it clean because of the time in the game and helping the players know the consequences. Fairly decent evidence they would have called the same thing if it were Class A and Josiah Dotzler.

FWIW, both the coaches and players should also know the situation. They also need to have the discipline to act accordingly.

 

[Huskers123456]

Here's the video that I was looking at. The ref who was blocked on the play tossed the ball down to call the T. The flopper stood as close as possible to the opponent's side and fell as if he'd been close lined by Hulk Hogan. The "elbower" spinning around like he did is a bit odd. I'll grant you that, but I don't see anything that warrants a foul to be called and neither did the official. But if it was "slight" as you say it was and I'm just not seeing it, I don't think of "slight" elbow contact as a foul. And a state tournament game cannot be decided on something like that. Do you think that same official makes that call on Joziah Dotzler in the same situation against Millard North? Absolutely not.

That video just drives home my point. He had complete position on the defender. His back to him. Any other player in America uses that position to receive the inbounds, get fouled, and end the game. Literally that same scenario will play out all across America this month and you won't see another player turn around and shove someone. Or even attempt to shove someone when their back is to the defender.

I don't know what kind of basketball people play on here but you usually don't "jockey for position" by turning around and shoving someone. And you certainly wouldn't do it before the inbounding player even had the ball.

 

[HuskerO]

It happened RIGHT in front of the official. ..probably 10 to 15 feet maximum with the ball not in play or ready for play. I think by rule a T is the only thing that could be called. I don't think a personal foul is an option there by rule.

That said, I did see more flopping today than I care to. Youngsters learning from watching bb on TV. Hopefully it's a point of emphasis for next year

Most refs don't have tunnel vision. Why people think peripheral vision isn't a thing for refs is funny.

 

[CheeseRunza]

He didn’t throw an elbow. I saw a better video on FB. The video was from up in the stands but I can say this.
1. The alleged elbower had his arms down. Elbows are thrown with arms up. At worst, he could have grazed the kids stomach.
2. But that’s doubtful, because at the end of the game a player trying to get open might push off with a firearm or hands. Nobody throws an elbow to get open.
3. The “elbower” was standing between the ref and the flopper. The ref couldn’t see it and that’s why it got called. The ref GUESSED that an elbow was thrown.
4. But the ref should have seen the flopper thrown his head back without being hit by anything but a gentle draft of air flow.

The ref shouldn’t be officiating at the state tournament. You have to know the situation and you have to call what you see. And even if I’m wrong and there was a “little elbow”, that’s not why thy rule was put in place. Otherwise, that call should be made about every time a player drives to the hoop or players jostle for position inside.

A player may not throw an elbow to get open, but he may throw one because he is a dirty player. As an opposing player, if you are dealing with this all game you have a couple options. Take matters in your own hands and jack the kid up, or call attention to it and force the ref to make a call.

Zoom in for a better view

 

[HuskerO]

That video just drives home my point. He had complete position on the defender. His back to him. Any other player in America uses that position to receive the inbounds, get fouled, and end the game. Literally that same scenario will play out all across America this month and you won't see another player turn around and shove someone. Or even attempt to shove someone when their back is to the defender.

I don't know what kind of basketball people play on here but you usually don't "jockey for position" by turning around and shoving someone. And you certainly wouldn't do it before the inbounding player even had the ball.

100% Santee guy had position. If he wanted to further his position, he would have either;
1) Move toward the inbounder or
2) Pivot or spin from his left to right to further box out the defender.

Instead he spun from right to left, doing a complete 360 and not gaining any position.

We all know why he spun the way he did...

 

[Dean Pope]

A player may not throw an elbow to get open, but he may throw one because he is a dirty player. As an opposing player, if you are dealing with this all game you have a couple options. Take matters in your own hands and jack the kid up, or call attention to it and force the ref to make a call.

Zoom in for a better view

View embedded media

That right there is a technical foul. That is one that should have been called. And yes, that's a dirty move made by the kind of guy who may be dumb enough to spin around and try to cheap shot a kid at the end of the game. I still didn't see enough to warrant it and I doubt that the official who made the call did either, but in the very least, that kid had a lot of bad karma. Act that way long enough and it will catch up to you.

 

[Huskers123456]

100% Santee guy had position. If he wanted to further his position, he would have either;
1) Move toward the inbounder or
2) Pivot or spin from his left to right to further box out the defender.

Instead he spun from right to left, doing a complete 360 and not gaining any position.

We all know why he spun the way he did...

Kids make mistakes but damn, that coach has to be so disappointed. That inbounds was setup for 100% success if the kid just does his job.