OT: Prayers to those in Charleston

[B1G RED RULES]

Just read his Uncle says his Daddy gave the suspect a .45 for his 21st b-day two months ago. Perhaps this how his Dad thought he might use it...perhaps not (admittingly we'll likely never know the answer). Is this really a risk that our society thinks is worth taking??? If that answer is yes than how many more of these events must occur before the answer is no???

I gave each of my kids a car at their 16th birthday. Cars kill many people every year. How do we address that problem?

 

[huskerj12]

I gave each of my kids a car at their 16th birthday. Cars kill many people every year. How do we address that problem?

Cars are used to get from one place to another. Guns are used to kill things. Please stop comparing the two.

 

[St. Anger]

Cars are used to get from one place to another. Guns are used to kill things. Please stop comparing the two.

But cars kill way more people than guns.

 

[B1G RED RULES]

But cars kill way more people than guns.

Then we must do something about it now!

 

[sports control my life]

BINGO^^^^^^^^

Even if you waived a magic wand and got rid of all the guns in this country, there'd still be guns. There are plenty of people in this country who'd manufacture their own.

There's enough people in this country with the knowledge to produce ammunition.

The bad people in this country would pay whatever it took to get those with the knowedge to make guns and ammo to do it.

Military stockpiles of weapons would be targeted by thieves and supplies would be stolen from within and sold for huge profit.

This country tried to outlaw boose and it was a complete failure. Trying to outlaw guns would be an even bigger failure. Meth is illegal, and we've passed laws to limit pseudo ephedrine sales, which decreased meth labs in this country, but Mexican drug cartels have little trouble getting meth into this country, despite laws against possession, transportation, and distribution of meth.

Don't get me wrong, I own many guns, but I do as a member of law enforcement feel it is too easy to get them, and too difficult to track them. However, pass all the laws you want about guns, criminals don't care.

If the 45 caliber this psycho was given is the murder weapon, was never given to him, he appears deranged enough that he would have done whatever he needed to legally or illegally to get another gun.

Bad guys all over the country who are convicted felons are prohibited from possessing a gun. Great law, but it doesn't stop them. If bad guys have a gun and think they are about to get caught with it, they drop the gun and run. Then they go get another.

You say lock them up and throw away the key. Sorry. Did you see that this weekend Nebraska will release a man involved in 2 murders after 10 years?

This country's history is tied to guns good and bad. It is ingrained in our society. They will not disappear and you can't make them. No amount of laws will keep guns out of the hands of a criminal hell bent on doing wrong.
The day that this country tries to sieze all guns from the citizens, is the day I will no longer want to be in law enforcement. Lots of people will refuse to turn their guns over. There will be Ruby Ridge and Waco incidents all over the country. Law enforcement officers trying to take the guns will be killed in large numbers. Some will be targeted and ambushed just so the gun on their hip can be taken.

Oh, and if that day ever comes, I'm not turning mine over either.

Classic red herring. Once again--and I'll say this slowly--NOBODY WANTS TO ELIMINATE ALL GUNS. All anyone is asking for are some common sense regulations and changes eliminating only the most dangerous of weapons. We'd all agree that nobody should be able to own a nuclear weapon so you can't tell me that our society opposes "gun control." It's simply a matter of degree and that degree needs to adjusted just ever so slightly.

 

[sports control my life]

I gave each of my kids a car at their 16th birthday. Cars kill many people every year. How do we address that problem?

Cars serve a utilitarian purpose beyond killing people. Plus, I bet your kids had to take a test in order to ensure that they could drive safely and wouldn't present a threat to others on the road. Why shouldn't we impose these minimal restrictions on gun ownership?

 

[huskerj12]

Cars kill people by accident (and when someone runs someone over on purpose, it's VERY rare), guns kill people on purpose.

 

[B1G RED RULES]

Cars serve a utilitarian purpose beyond killing people. Plus, I bet your kids had to take a test in order to ensure that they could drive safely and wouldn't present a threat to others on the road. Why shouldn't we impose these minimal restrictions on gun ownership?

Cars serve a utilitarian purpose beyond killing people. Plus, I bet your kids had to take a test in order to ensure that they could drive safely and wouldn't present a threat to others on the road. Why shouldn't we impose these minimal restrictions on gun ownership?

Cars serve a utilitarian purpose beyond killing people. Plus, I bet your kids had to take a test in order to ensure that they could drive safely and wouldn't present a threat to others on the road. Why shouldn't we impose these minimal restrictions on gun ownership?

Is there really a need for a car that can go from 0 to 60 miles an hour in less than 4 seconds? Is there a need for sports cars? Is there a need for two seater cars? Is there a need for old muscle cars from the 1960s as collector items? According to your logic, Americans are not smart enough to utilize these vehicles correctly, therefore they need to be taken out of our hands and we all need to drive neutered minivans that do not exceed 70 miles an hour. Despite all the training for driving vehicles, they still end up killing many more people on an annual basis.

 

[B1G RED RULES]

Cars kill people by accident (and when someone runs someone over on purpose, it's VERY rare), guns kill people on purpose.

Cars do not kill people. People driving the cars are responsible. Accidents happen 95% of the time because people failed to obey a law that was established.

 

[B1G RED RULES]

Cars are used to get from one place to another. Guns are used to kill things. Please stop comparing the two.

Meth was not created to kill people either - and it is illegal in every way possible. Yet, somehow this ends up in the hands of MILLIONS of people. How can that be?

 

[jay-cheese]

Spinning your wheels on an analogy of anything to this issues at hand is fruitless and an offensive distraction, and one likely given for fear of addressing the real issue at hand. These same old tactics are just that, OLD. Time for something new (I didn't say improved...just new).

 

[jteten]

we have a lot mental health issues in this country. a lot. nothings changing anytime soon.

keep your eyes peeled.

Mental instability is the greatest danger

This is the best post in the entire thread. Family, friends, relatives, school counselors, teachers, etc... It takes personal responsibility from everyone to stop these things from happening. The signs are almost always there. We just choose to ignore most of the signs or simply assume that the worst could not possibly happen. Well, it does.....

 

[huskerj12]

Meth was not created to kill people either - and it is illegal in every way possible. Yet, somehow this ends up in the hands of MILLIONS of people. How can that be?

At this point I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

 

[St. Anger]

Mental instability is the greatest danger

This is the best post in the entire thread. Family, friends, relatives, school counselors, teachers, etc... It takes personal responsibility from everyone to stop these things from happening. The signs are almost always there. We just choose to ignore most of the signs or simply assume that the worst could not possibly happen. Well, it does.....

Seems like the narrative is it's always mental illness when the perpetrator is white.

 

[sports control my life]

Meth was not created to kill people either - and it is illegal in every way possible. Yet, somehow this ends up in the hands of MILLIONS of people. How can that be?

So, your solution is we do nothing and just hope against hope that this problem magically resolves itself? You guys keep bringing-up cars but have thus far avoided responding to the question of why you would oppose basic competency, mental health, and registration requirements for gun ownership just like we have with car ownership. That seems like perhaps the most reasonable compromise in the world. I don't want to take away your guns. I just want to make sure you're not a crazy person.

 

[B1G RED RULES]

So, your solution is we do nothing and just hope against hope that this problem magically resolves itself? You guys keep bringing-up cars but have thus far avoided responding to the question of why you would oppose basic competency, mental health, and registration requirements for gun ownership just like we have with car ownership. That seems like perhaps the most reasonable compromise in the world. I don't want to take away your guns. I just want to make sure you're not a crazy person.

I don't disagree with you on the solutions you presented at all. I do oppose taking things out of the hands of the American people because we are not smart enough to know how to use them.

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

Cars are used to get from one place to another. Guns are used to kill things. Please stop comparing the two.

People drive drunk and murder people at insanely high rates. The 2 things are weapons at that point. Valid comparison.

 

[B1G RED RULES]

At this point I'm not really sure what you're getting at.

Meth is illegal. Yet, millions of people have access to meth every year. With meth being illegal, how in the world the millions of people get access to it? With this same track record for nearly every other illegal activity, how again do you think making guns illegal will solve this problem?

 

[sports control my life]

Meth is illegal. Yet, millions of people have access to meth every year. With meth being illegal, how in the world the millions of people get access to it? With this same track record for nearly every other illegal activity, how again do you think making guns illegal will solve this problem?

By that logic, why have any laws whatsoever? Come on, you're being disingenuous. People use meth because they're addicted. People don't get addicted to owning semi-automatic guns with 30-round magazines. If these insane guns were illegal, it would be harder and and more expensive to find them. I'm not saying some people wouldn't still have them but there would be less and we could hammer people when they get caught. It's a simple deterrent. Moreover, enhanced screening would find those with mental illnesses and make it more and more difficult for them to obtain guns. Will insane people still do insane things? Probably. Without easy access to guns, though, they'll do insane things less and the damage won't be nearly as destructive.

Deep down I know you all know these things to be true and I don't know why you insist on pretending you don't.

 

[jteten]

Seems like the narrative is it's always mental illness when the perpetrator is white.

So Adam Lanza, James Holmes and Dylann Roof didnt/dont have some potential mental illness issues? Thats not to suggest they didnt know what they were doing when they did it and shouldnt be held accountable. Mental instability comes in many forms and isn't as black and white as just batshit insane murdered or "normal". I'm just trying to understand your point.

 

[jeans15]

The problem in this society is that we need to lock crazy people up.

The guy could have made bombs and blew up the church killing everybody.....plus all this outrage is fake agenda driven.....blacks are being killed daily yet now we cry about guns.......black guy kills a white family with a butcher knife and burns down the house but its not a hate crime.

This is sad, but a lil girl taking a bullet for being in the wrong place at the wrong time is just as bad.

 

[litespeedhuskerfan]

Well this thread jumped the shark. Took a little longer than I thought, but it got there.

 

[baseball31ne]

Mentall Illness is a very real problem. The supply of illegal guns is a very real problem. Look at the top 25 cities in terms of murder rate (overall-bigger cities and per capita) and look at the gun laws in that city. Are there not enough gun laws? Not being enforced? Or is it that there is a knowledge that regular citizens will not be able to protect themselves against the people who don't follow the laws anyway?

My guess is mostly options 2 and 3.

 

[Husker.Wed.]

Is there really a need for a car that can go from 0 to 60 miles an hour in less than 4 seconds? Is there a need for sports cars? Is there a need for two seater cars? Is there a need for old muscle cars from the 1960s as collector items? According to your logic, Americans are not smart enough to utilize these vehicles correctly, therefore they need to be taken out of our hands and we all need to drive neutered minivans that do not exceed 70 miles an hour. Despite all the training for driving vehicles, they still end up killing many more people on an annual basis.

Hey - the debate on this thread about guns is one thing, but bagging on classic cars is downright un-American.

 

[newAD]

New AD. You wrote "If the 45 caliber this psycho was given is the murder weapon, was never given to him, he appears deranged enough that he would have done whatever he needed to legally or illegally to get another gun"

That's an assumption not a fact...and as such, is not valid statement (using that type of logic one could justify any type of randomness...while that may be true at times that is unfair blanket statement) . If you think guns are too easy to obtain, then stand behind trying to change that (instead of accepting it). It's very likely that as law enforcemnet you deal with this issue op a day to day basis more than anyone (which is why you are trained to treat all people as if they are armed, even when that isn't the case). You're likely are correct that any change won't be easy or show immediate but it'd still be a start to trying something different. Isn't that worth a taking a chance on?

For the record I have no issue with guns used to hunt or for riflery. There is 0 practicality for large clip auto assualt rifles for the average citizen in our soctiety today. None. I do agree that any modification on gun laws is going to challenging simply b/c today there are more guns than people in this country.

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/19/8807851/mass-shootings-gun-control-charleston

Sorry that I made an assumption about a psycho who posed for a picture wearing a symbol for apartheid, who by reports wanted to start a race war, that sat in a prayer group for about an hour, inside a church, and then killed a bunch of people for no other reason than the color of their skin, would probably do whatever he needed to do to get a gun to accomplish his goal. How silly of me.

 

[huskerfan830]

I gave each of my kids a car at their 16th birthday. Cars kill many people every year. How do we address that problem?

That's pitifully weak. Gun violence is a 'conscience' decision by a individual who has no morality or honor. So agreeing with that, he/she that dies in the car ACCIDENT has no morality or honor? No, so stop correlating the two. It's a convenient argument in your opinion only, but has no logic.

 

[newAD]

Classic red herring. Once again--and I'll say this slowly--NOBODY WANTS TO ELIMINATE ALL GUNS. All anyone is asking for are some common sense regulations and changes eliminating only the most dangerous of weapons. We'd all agree that nobody should be able to own a nuclear weapon so you can't tell me that our society opposes "gun control." It's simply a matter of degree and that degree needs to adjusted just ever so slightly.

The fact that you read this as being a red herring means you didn't read what I wrote. My point was that all the gun laws you could come up with, won't stop gun crime.

I said I feel guns are too easy to obtain. I am not an NRA member. I feel that certain firearms have no business being owned by the general public, but even if those laws existed, they'd still be out there.

I feel the gun show loop hole exception should be closed. But even if that occurred, it won't stop a determined person from obtaining a gun if they really want it. Straw purchases, buying on the streets, burglarize a home, etc, etc. If people want a gun bad enough they will get one.

 

[sports control my life]

The fact that you read this as being a red herring means you didn't read what I wrote. My point was that all the gun laws you could come up with, won't stop gun crime.

I said I feel guns are too easy to obtain. I am not an NRA member. I feel that certain firearms have no business being owned by the general public, but even if those laws existed, they'd still be out there.

I feel the gun show loop hole exception should be closed. But even if that occurred, it won't stop a determined person from obtaining a gun if they really want it. Straw purchases, buying on the streets, burglarize a home, etc, etc. If people want a gun bad enough they will get one.

Yes, yes, I don't disagree. More stringent laws may not stop EVERYONE but they would stop more people than they do now which, in turn, would result in less gun deaths. A lot of people make terrible heat-of-the-moment decisions because of ready access to guns. If they didn't have that ready access, those people wouldn't make those terrible decisions. Again, more stringent laws would not stop every potential gun crime but it would stop enough to make an appreciable difference. Just ask Australia.

 

[Tulsa Tom]

Are there any other first world countries that believe they have to have guns to protect themselves? I'm not talking places that have out lawed guns necessarily...but places who believe citizens need guns for protection. Serious question.

 

[TheBeav815]

I can say and have said a lot about this. But instead, watch this guy, he's funny and has a way cooler accent than me.

 

[jeans15]

Are there any other first world countries that believe they have to have guns to protect themselves? I'm not talking places that have out lawed guns necessarily...but places who believe citizens need guns for protection. Serious question.

That has as diverse population that we do....that allow illegals and gang members to cross our borders anytime they want, and has a constitution like ours. Nope

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

Yes, yes, I don't disagree. More stringent laws may not stop EVERYONE but they would stop more people than they do now which, in turn, would result in less gun deaths. A lot of people make terrible heat-of-the-moment decisions because of ready access to guns. If they didn't have that ready access, those people wouldn't make those terrible decisions. Again, more stringent laws would not stop every potential gun crime but it would stop enough to make an appreciable difference. Just ask Australia.

Actually if you take the time to study homicide rates of places that have banned guns, you will have a tough time backing up any of your claims here. England, Ireland, Jamaica, Australia, D.C....... etc etc etc

 

[TheBeav815]

Actually if you take the time to study homicide rates of places that have banned guns, you will have a tough time backing up any of your claims here. England, Ireland, Jamaica, Australia, D.C....... etc etc etc

Gun deaths by year for Australia. I believe 1996 was the year they passed way more restrictive laws. It's not a ban necessarily, there are ways you can still own there.

2012: 22616
2011: 187
2010: 232
2009: 226
2008: 231
2007: 231
2006: 242
2005: 220
2004: 241
2003: 289 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)16 17
2002: 292
2001: 326
2000: 324 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)17
1999: 347
1998: 312
1997: 428
1996: 516
1995: 470
1994: 516
1993: 513
1992: 608
1991: 618
1990: 595
1989: 549
1988: 674
1987: 694
1986: 677
1985: 682
1984: 675
1983: 644
1982: 689
1981: 618
1980: 687
1979: 685

 

[TheBeav815]

In Australia, annual homicides by any means total

2012: 273 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)19 20
2011: 229 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)19 21 20 22 23
2010: 258 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)19 21 24 25 20 22
2009: 272
2008: 251 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)24 25 20 22
2007: 216
2006: 256
2005: 199
2004: 164
2003: 278
2002: 291
2001: 300
1999/00: 340 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)25 20 22
1998/99: 341 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)25 22
1997/98: 312
1996/97: 319
1995/96: 358
1994/95: 342
1993/94: 342 (Edit - These were superscript citations on the original page -->)25
1992/93: 360
1991/92: 331
1990/91: 351
1989/90: 331

 

[TheBeav815]

UK numbers here: http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-kingdom

You can look up several different countries on that site.

Be sure to note the incidence per 100,000 people. Here's gun deaths per 100,000 people in the U.S.

2013: 10.64
2012: 10.69
2011: 10.38
2010: 10.26
2009: 10.22
2008: 10.39
2007: 10.37
2006: 10.35
2005: 10.39
2004: 10.10
2003: 10.39
2002: 10.51
2001: 10.38
2000: 10.19
1999: 10.35

Now the UK:

2011: 0.23
2010: 0.26
2009: 0.24
2008: 0.28
2007: 0.21
2006: 0.35
2005: 0.27
2004: 0.26
2003: 0.27
2002: 0.28
2001: 0.26
2000: 0.40
1999: 0.36
1998: 0.34
1997: 0.32
1996: 0.42

Here's Australia (heavy restrictions enacted 1996-97):

2012: 1.03
2011: 0.86
2010: 1.08
2009: 1.06
2008: 1.10
2007: 1.11
2006: 1.18
2005: 1.09
2004: 1.20
2003: 1.46
2002: 1.49
2001: 1.69
2000: 1.70
1999: 1.84
1998: 1.68
1997: 2.32
1996: 2.84
1995: 2.61
1994: 2.90
1993: 2.91
1992: 3.49
1991: 3.59
1990: 3.51
1989: 3.29
1988: 4.11
1987: 4.30
1986: 4.26
1985: 4.35
1984: 4.35
1983: 4.20
1982: 4.54
1981: 4.14
1980: 4.70
1979: 3.29

Anyone know what year the UK laws got heavily restrictive? I see a slight downward trend in the incidence of deaths, but I don't know what the "first year" of their policy was.

What I would like to see the U.S. do is something similar to what Australia does where you can own firearms, but only very certain kinds and for very certain reasons. Instead of the default being "Guns for everyone!" we set the default to "Maybe guns for you...we'll see."

You have to let go of the idea that it will be magic and nobody will ever die again. That won't happen. What will happen is it will gradually get better than it was.

 

[TheBeav815]

Actually if you take the time to study homicide rates of places that have banned guns, you will have a tough time backing up any of your claims here. England, Ireland, Jamaica, Australia, D.C....... etc etc etc

Jamaica is a crazy one. Not very familiar with what their laws are, but holy geez their murder rate per 100,000 people is BAD. Other examples you know of for countries with restrictive laws that were fairly recent?

Generally, what the HELL is going on in Jamaica?

In Jamaica, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is

2012: 39.31
2011: 41.11
2010: 52.61
2009: 61.61
2008: 59.5
2007: 58.5
2006: 49.7
2005: 62.4
2004: 55.2
2003: 36.8
2002: 39.8
2001: 43.7
2000: 34.4
1999: 33.41
1998: 33.9
1997: 41.41
1996: 37.21
1995: 31.7

 

[huskerbux]

So Adam Lanza, James Holmes and Dylann Roof didnt/dont have some potential mental illness issues? Thats not to suggest they didnt know what they were doing when they did it and shouldnt be held accountable. Mental instability comes in many forms and isn't as black and white as just batshit insane murdered or "normal". I'm just trying to understand your point.

I don't normally agree with Jon Stewart but take a few minutes and watch this. Nails it IMO.

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

Jamaica is a crazy one. Not very familiar with what their laws are, but holy geez their murder rate per 100,000 people is BAD. Other examples you know of for countries with restrictive laws that were fairly recent?

Generally, what the HELL is going on in Jamaica?

In Jamaica, the annual rate of homicide by any means per 100,000 population is

2012: 39.31
2011: 41.11
2010: 52.61
2009: 61.61
2008: 59.5
2007: 58.5
2006: 49.7
2005: 62.4
2004: 55.2
2003: 36.8
2002: 39.8
2001: 43.7
2000: 34.4
1999: 33.41
1998: 33.9
1997: 41.41
1996: 37.21
1995: 31.7

No idea. I have just read several reports that claim there is no real creedence to expecting homicide dropping because you "take those guns away". Simply saying "we have to do something" and acting like saying that makes you some kind of savior is disconcerting. Beav is the only one in this thread who has pointed to an example of what HE would like to see. While I don't agree, at least its an example. Simply blaming guns is lazy, and agenda driven.

 

[sports control my life]

No idea. I have just read several reports that claim there is no real creedence to expecting homicide dropping because you "take those guns away". Simply saying "we have to do something" and acting like saying that makes you some kind of savior is disconcerting. Beav is the only one in this thread who has pointed to an example of what HE would like to see. While I don't agree, at least its an example. Simply blaming guns is lazy, and agenda driven.

I've been very clear throughout the thread. I want to see limits on magazine capacities; background checks consistent with what it takes to get a driver's license on ALL gun transfers--no exceptions--with more thorough checks on the most dangerous types of guns allowed by law; and mandatory, stiff punishments for illegal possession of prohibited guns.

The other thing to note about Australia is that the point of their 1996 law was to prevent MASS shootings (I believe defined as shooting four or more people exclusive of the shooter himself), not necessarily shootings per se and the impetus for the change in the law was a terrible mass shooting that, by our current standards, was pretty run-of-the-mill honestly. Although they still have gun deaths in Australia, they have not had a mass shooting since the law's enactment.

 

[TheBeav815]

Obviously we know that we're not going to end murder. But I can't think of any good reason why it needs to be so easy.

People wanna stab each other? Fine. At least I won't ever worry about catching a stray blade from a drive-by knifing.