OT--Alfie Evans

[huskerfan1414]

yeah, this is political, but its a huge deal.
This absolute evil and disgusting.
Anyone who thinks whats happening to this boy and his family is okay, is a terrible, awful human being.

 

[cubsker]

We're prob 50 years behind them. Freedom is on its way down the shitter.

 

[mothmonsterman]

I'm not a religious person, I don't believe in any kind of diety, but I think that when some religious people talk about a "culture of death" this is the sort of thing they are referring to. There is an ongoing scandal with euthanasia in the Netherlands. There are attempts all over the Western world, but especially in Northern Europe to eliminate Down Syndrome through aborto-eugenics.

It could well be the case that Alfie is beyond saving, but for the state to forbid his transfer because they think they know better, and to leave him to die of dehydration is abominable. I think about my own son, and the thought of what this kid is going through makes me feel sick.

 

[RedSea]

Too much state, once again.

 

[barney44]

The police over there were even on Twitter threatening possible action for people on social media commenting on Alder Hay (hospital) which is completely ridiculous. IMO this kid is being held hostage by the British Government and NHS. Let the parents do what they must and quit playing God with peoples children.

 

[tpmcg]

we have euthanasia. more subtle, but it exists. its a cost-benefit (your life might not be someone to else's benefit!) analysis.

one day it will be readily available at your local pharmacy. and cheap.

 

[GretnaShawn]

Sad situation all around. This is the reason people refuse to surrender an inch of their rights to the government.

 

[barney44]

Sad situation all around. This is the reason people refuse to surrender an inch of their rights to the government.

We should never surrender our rights to government. They abuse their power enough as it is..

 

[huskerfan66]

We're prob 50 years behind them. Freedom is on its way down the shitter.

Freedom and democracy is only one generation away from extinction. Now before anybody gets their panties in a wad that I am saying it's over, I am not. What I am saying is at any given time, the next generation, which could be 200 years from now or whatever does not believe in the freedom we currently have and goes a different path, itsi only one generation away. If that makes sense.

 

[jlb321]

the question I have is health care a universal freedom without limitations

is it a universal right to demand care for which you aren't paying which includes being in an ICU on life support for well over a year. Unfortunately health care is a commodity and increasingly will need to be allocated on terms that balance individual as well as societal needs. Organ transplantation is an example. Organs aren't allocated just based on need but also on the likelihood of the recipient doing well. If your heart or lungs are failing you just don't get placed on the transplant list because it is something you want or demand. If you are 40 with failing lungs and smoking you aren't getting a transplant whether you want one or not.

More and more health care delivery - particularly high cost, limited resource therapies are going to have to be allocated in such a manner in the future.

Health care dollars, beds, physicians, nurses, and other providers are all limited resources and as a country we are going to have to decide how best to deploy them. Many people don't realize that if a health care team is off providing highly intensive care for several hours which is deemed futile or nearly futile those resources are being pulled away from other patients with better chances of survival.

If your loved one with a rapidly progressing process is delayed an hour or 2 from getting to a tertiary care center ICU because of lack of beds - their survival chances are declining (this happens almost every hour of every day - now in the US) due to limited bed and staff availability.

You also have a growing population that value work-life balance much more now than ever before. Fewer and fewer providers are willing to work the weekends, nights, and holidays that are required to run 24/7 services that many patients require.

 

[newAD]

I'm not a religious person, I don't believe in any kind of diety, but I think that when some religious people talk about a "culture of death" this is the sort of thing they are referring to. There is an ongoing scandal with euthanasia in the Netherlands. There are attempts all over the Western world, but especially in Northern Europe to eliminate Down Syndrome through aborto-eugenics.

It could well be the case that Alfie is beyond saving, but for the state to forbid his transfer because they think they know better, and to leave him to die of dehydration is abominable. I think about my own son, and the thought of what this kid is going through makes me feel sick.

Totally agree with this. I tried to read up on some British reports on this yesterday just to see if I could come to an understanding as to what was truly going on here. Still not sure I have a complete understanding, but totally agree with what is bolded above.

I don't know if this kid can be 'saved', but if the parents want to take the kid to Italy to see different treatment, that should be the parents' decision, NOT the government of UK. This vaguely reminds me of the 70s movie "Logan's Run."

 

[newAD]

Freedom and democracy is only one generation away from extinction. Now before anybody gets their panties in a wad that I am saying it's over, I am not. What I am saying is at any given time, the next generation, which could be 200 years from now or whatever does not believe in the freedom we currently have and goes a different path, itsi only one generation away. If that makes sense.

The sad thing is, there is a sizeable percentage of our population who want certain rights restricted. All so they can feel better.

 

[jlb321]

The sad thing is, there is a sizeable percentage of our population who want certain rights restricted. All so they can feel better.

Is unlimited/unrestricted health care a right?
Interesting topic. I agree the family should be able to pay for their kid to be transferred to Italy and allow that country’s health care system to care for him

 

[Enrozes]

Totally agree with this. I tried to read up on some British reports on this yesterday just to see if I could come to an understanding as to what was truly going on here. Still not sure I have a complete understanding, but totally agree with what is bolded above.

I don't know if this kid can be 'saved', but if the parents want to take the kid to Italy to see different treatment, that should be the parents' decision, NOT the government of UK. This vaguely reminds me of the 70s movie "Logan's Run."

To clarify- the poor kid’s vegetative because his brain is essentially liquified. The different treatment being offered in Italy will not fix that; it’s just palliative care. This child, unfortunately, is never going to wake up.

There’s no state conspiracy here. The doctors are sworn to act in the best interest of the patient, not in whatever way makes the parents feel better. They have deemed the best course of action is to let him die with dignity rather than to keep pumping life into an empty shell. After hearing testimony from many medical experts the courts have agreed with the doctors on multiple occasions.

Now, personally, i’d just let the parents take him. The kid won’t know the difference anyway, and it’s the simplest way to close the door on the whole mess. IMO Alfie and his parents are being used to drive an agenda, and that makes a sad situation sadder.

 

[Enrozes]

The sad thing is, there is a sizeable percentage of our population who want certain rights restricted. All so they can feel better.

I’d say almost everyone wants certain rights restricted. Which rights, specifically, depends on each individual’s point of view (and mostly on which ones they think don’t affect them much). I’m guessing that’s not what you meant, though.

 

[newAD]

Is unlimited/unrestricted health care a right?
Interesting topic. I agree the family should be able to pay for their kid to be transferred to Italy and allow that country’s health care system to care for him

Unlimited health care a right IMO? No. My point is that if the health care system in the UK feels they can do no more, then let the parents take the kid to Italy if that is what they want to do.

 

[newAD]

To clarify- the poor kid’s vegetative because his brain is essentially liquified. The different treatment being offered in Italy will not fix that; it’s just palliative care. This child, unfortunately, is never going to wake up.

There’s no state conspiracy here. The doctors are sworn to act in the best interest of the patient, not in whatever way makes the parents feel better. They have deemed the best course of action is to let him die with dignity rather than to keep pumping life into an empty shell. After hearing testimony from many medical experts the courts have agreed with the doctors on multiple occasions.

Now, personally, i’d just let the parents take him. The kid won’t know the difference anyway, and it’s the simplest way to close the door on the whole mess. IMO Alfie and his parents are being used to drive an agenda, and that makes a sad situation sadder.

That is the assumption that I have, that there really isn't anything else that can be done, and the kid's fate is sealed. But again, if the parents want the peace of mind knowing they tried to the end, and those in Italy want to do something, let them.

 

[jlb321]

Unlimited health care a right IMO? No. My point is that if the health care system in the UK feels they can do no more, then let the parents take the kid to Italy if that is what they want to do.

If Italy is funding the transfer I agree. What has happened in the past - happens here in the US as well - is the faculty agreeing to accept the transfer says sure if you can get them here we’ll provide care - knowing full well the transfer isn’t going to be covered by insurance and the family can’t afford to hire a private team - aircraft, etc to make it happen.

Accepting facility looks like heroes and the current facility douches

 

[GammaxuvirHusker]

yeah, this is political, but its a huge deal.
This absolute evil and disgusting.
Anyone who thinks whats happening to this boy and his family is okay, is a terrible, awful human being.

This is about power. The government is in effect telling its subjects (subjects, not citizens) that it knows what's best and that it will use intimidation and force to get its way. There is no other logical reason to explain why the British government is forbidding these parents from seeking all possible avenues to save their child.

This story is all too similar to what happened to poor Charlie Gard last year.

 

[sloth316]

If Prince William & Princess Kate's new son had this condition, would the government do the same thing?

 

[jlb321]

If Prince William & Princess Kate's new son had this condition, would the government do the same thing?

Good question. An equally valid question is would 2 highly educated individuals like them choose to ignore a multitude of health care professionals who each have undergone a decade + of training with decades more of experience when they tell them that the current care is futile?

 

[baseball31ne]

Would the prince and princess accept the government telling them they didn't have the right to decide on their child's fate? Not allowing for even quality of life end of life care.

 

[NorthWillRiseAgain]

My only problem with this whole thing is their lack of allowing him to go elsewhere.

I believe it is a lost cause, but if somebody is willing to try, why not?

 

[NorthWillRiseAgain]

Good question. An equally valid question is would 2 highly educated individuals like them choose to ignore a multitude of health care professionals who each undergoing a decade + of training with decades more of experience when they tell them that the current care is futile?

We live in a culture where everyone believes they know better, even when they have no education on a subject.

 

[Redondo]

We live in a culture where everyone believes they know better, even when they have no education on a subject.

This is true in the extreme, nowadays. It's hard to believe, sometimes, how people can be so dogmatic about which they really know nothing and, in addition, defy logic when they try to argue it. Obviously, this is a peeve of mine. GBR

 

[barney44]

Freedom and democracy is only one generation away from extinction. Now before anybody gets their panties in a wad that I am saying it's over, I am not. What I am saying is at any given time, the next generation, which could be 200 years from now or whatever does not believe in the freedom we currently have and goes a different path, itsi only one generation away. If that makes sense.

This current idiot generation eating tide pods could be it..

 

[huskerfan1414]

To clarify- the poor kid’s vegetative because his brain is essentially liquified. The different treatment being offered in Italy will not fix that; it’s just palliative care. This child, unfortunately, is never going to wake up.

There’s no state conspiracy here. The doctors are sworn to act in the best interest of the patient, not in whatever way makes the parents feel better. They have deemed the best course of action is to let him die with dignity rather than to keep pumping life into an empty shell. After hearing testimony from many medical experts the courts have agreed with the doctors on multiple occasions.

Now, personally, i’d just let the parents take him. The kid won’t know the difference anyway, and it’s the simplest way to close the door on the whole mess. IMO Alfie and his parents are being used to drive an agenda, and that makes a sad situation sadder.

You disgust me.
What you and a panel consider dignity might not be what others consider dignity. The best interests of the patient are what the parents want and can access, not what some board or doctors terrified that their crummy healthcare will be exposed say.
By the way, those caring experts you speak of who are looking out for the patients "best interests" are flummoxed on how he is still alive and are refusing to feed him.
So suffocating and starving to death is the humane thing to do and in his bests interests.
What a bunch of absolute bullshit.

 

[Enrozes]

This current idiot generation eating tide pods could be it..

The ones eating tide pods are not the future leaders.

 

[huskerfan1414]

Good question. An equally valid question is would 2 highly educated individuals like them choose to ignore a multitude of health care professionals who each have undergone a decade + of training with decades more of experience when they tell them that the current care is futile?

Im sure theyd enjoy watching their child starve to death, and theres other experts saying they are willing to try something but they dont count right?
Your arrogant attempt to make these parents and any parents trying to keep their children alive look like idiots is disturbingly shallow.
Oh, and according to those experts he was supposed to die long ago.

 

[huskerfan1414]

This is about power. The government is in effect telling its subjects (subjects, not citizens) that it knows what's best and that it will use intimidation and force to get its way. There is no other logical reason to explain why the British government is forbidding these parents from seeking all possible avenues to save their child.

This story is all too similar to what happened to poor Charlie Gard last year.

Absolutely.
They are terrified he will live if he goes elsewhere.

 

[Enrozes]

You disgust me.
What you and a panel consider dignity might not be what others consider dignity. The best interests of the patient are what the parents want and can access, not what some board or doctors terrified that their crummy healthcare will be exposed say.
By the way, those caring experts you speak of who are looking out for the patients "best interests" are flummoxed on how he is still alive and are refusing to feed him.
So suffocating and starving to death is the humane thing to do and in his bests interests.
What a bunch of absolute bullshit.

Easy tiger. No need to get personal. I even said that personally i’d let the parents decide.

If you want to believe the parents know better than the doctors, I won’t try to convince you otherwise. Either way, the kid isn’t really suffering, because he’s not really there anymore. Personally, i’d want my family to pull the plug if I were in a similar situation, but that’s up to everyone individually.

 

[sloth316]

My only problem with this whole thing is their lack of allowing him to go elsewhere.

I believe it is a lost cause, but if somebody is willing to try, why not?

Because government knows best

 

[huskerfan1414]

Easy tiger. No need to get personal. I even said that personally i’d let the parents decide.

If you want to believe the parents know better than the doctors, I won’t try to convince you otherwise. Either way, the kid isn’t really suffering, because he’s not really there anymore. Personally, i’d want my family to pull the plug if I were in a similar situation, but that’s up to everyone individually.

Yes it is up to everyone, or should be.
They pulled the plug. Hes still alive even though doctors said he was supposed to die long ago.
So much for experts.
Also, the Italian doctors are experts, right? Or not?
How about the group of UK doctors condeming the actions of the staff at alder hospital? Or do those experts not count either?

 

[huskerfan1414]

Easy tiger. No need to get personal. I even said that personally i’d let the parents decide.

If you want to believe the parents know better than the doctors, I won’t try to convince you otherwise. Either way, the kid isn’t really suffering, because he’s not really there anymore. Personally, i’d want my family to pull the plug if I were in a similar situation, but that’s up to everyone individually.

Oh, and if you think "expert" opinions cant be affected by a variety of social and political, as well as "pride" issues...well then I dunno what to tell you.
Experts arent always saints, in any field.

 

[Antwill]

If Prince William & Princess Kate's new son had this condition, would the government do the same thing?

Good question. An equally valid question is would 2 highly educated individuals like them choose to ignore a multitude of health care professionals who each have undergone a decade + of training with decades more of experience when they tell them that the current care is futile?

Are you talking about the health professionals whose mistakes are the third leading cause of death in the US?

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11117808

 

[huskerfan66]

This current idiot generation eating tide pods could be it..

Man, never thought of that. Well now I am going to be depressed all weekend. Thanks!!

 

[cubsker]

We live in a culture where everyone believes they know better, even when they have no education on a subject.

Doctors are wrong all the time. They said he couldn't survive this long. They are not an all knowing profession.

 

[Huskerlife39]

The ones eating tide pods are not the future leaders.

I wouldn't want to bet my home that this statement is factual!

 

[WestCoastCornhusker2]

yeah, this is political, but its a huge deal.
This absolute evil and disgusting.
Anyone who thinks whats happening to this boy and his family is okay, is a terrible, awful human being.

Don't vote for the political party that have most of the atheists. The don't understand where right and wrong come from.

 

[newAD]

Are you talking about the health professionals whose mistakes are the third leading cause of death in the US?

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11117808

That's what it's called "Practicing" medicine.