Gun Question

[tarheelhusker]

I'd prefer something like ol' Rin Tin Tin myself, but if the pistol draw is too slow...another option is the fixed blade Clinch Pick. This little bugger is made for the time someone grabs ya. Mine damn near blends in as an odd shaped belt buckle when I loosley tuck in my shirt. You never see it with a T shirt or untucked shirt.

hi there, ready for dirty work!

 

[TheBeav815]

Originally posted by suhnami:
Beav, why don't you start your own anti-gun thread instead of shitting all of this one?

A shot from a shotgun is going to penetrate drywall. You were wrong. The video shows it penetrating the drywall.

No, I was very clearly right. You just want me to be wrong.

Nobody ever said "a shotgun won't go through drywall." Any gun will go through drywall, the question is how much velocity it carries through to the other side, a.k.a. is it still going to be lethal when it enters the next room, and how many walls will it go through?

This video shows #8 shot through a wall into ballistics gel. 4-5 inches penetration. The #4 shot goes about 7 inches.

If you put the #8 through two walls, not all of the pellets can even penetrate a piece of cardboard on the other side.

So the point is that it loses its lethality much more easily if you miss...which is what you want.

But don't let facts stop you from trying to pick a fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97sjv11yesc

 

[TheBeav815]

Another good video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZPC4Ht6c5E

 

[BigBL87]

Penetration is a double edged sword. You don't want it going through wall after wall, but you want it to penetrate enough to nullify a threat. Birdshot doesn't penetrate much, but is also not a great stopper. It tends to make grotesque looking but very shallow wounds. Will that stop some intruders? Probably. But if I'm defending my life with a gun, I'd rather not rely on "probably". If you are at a point where you are willing to point a gun at someone, you should not be concerned with wounding vs killing, as you should never point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.

Again, in penetration vs stopping power, 223 is one of the best options out there, especially in a soft point or ballistic tip. 223 typically penetrate fewer walls than anything but birdshot and has much better stopping power.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

 

[summersatthelake]

There is no perfect all around firearm for home protection as each home/occupants and number/location of bad guys will differ. About the only time you will know for certain which would be the most effective weapon in the situation is when it is too late. To partially prepare for using your firearm of choice I suggest finding an old building with 9' ceilings and approximately 12x12' (or not old if you can fire out the door or window) and wait until it is pitch dark and fire one round (without earplugs) out the window or door....prepare to be partially blinded by the flash and deaf by the sound/concussion of many of the above mentioned firearms.
JMHO

 

[suhnami]

Originally posted by BigBL87:
Penetration is a double edged sword. You don't want it going through wall after wall, but you want it to penetrate enough to nullify a threat. Birdshot doesn't penetrate much, but is also not a great stopper. It tends to make grotesque looking but very shallow wounds. Will that stop some intruders? Probably. But if I'm defending my life with a gun, I'd rather not rely on "probably". If you are at a point where you are willing to point a gun at someone, you should not be concerned with wounding vs killing, as you should never point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.

Again, in penetration vs stopping power, 223 is one of the best options out there, especially in a soft point or ballistic tip. 223 typically penetrate fewer walls than anything but birdshot and has much better stopping power.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

An AR-15 with a red dot and 30+ round magazine is a great option. But you lose the flexibility of a hand gun. Each has their place and each fill their role which is why there are so many different kinds

 

[BigBL87]

An AR-15 with a red dot and 30+ round magazine is a great option. But you lose the flexibility of a hand gun. Each has their place and each fill their role which is why there are so many different kinds

Exactly, and also why I have to own more than just one!

 

[TheBeav815]

Penetration is a double edged sword. You don't want it going through wall after wall, but you want it to penetrate enough to nullify a threat. Birdshot doesn't penetrate much, but is also not a great stopper. It tends to make grotesque looking but very shallow wounds. Will that stop some intruders? Probably. But if I'm defending my life with a gun, I'd rather not rely on "probably". If you are at a point where you are willing to point a gun at someone, you should not be concerned with wounding vs killing, as you should never point your gun at anything you aren't willing to destroy.

Again, in penetration vs stopping power, 223 is one of the best options out there, especially in a soft point or ballistic tip. 223 typically penetrate fewer walls than anything but birdshot and has much better stopping power.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

If you're going to shoot somebody, you're going to shoot several times. I don't think anyone who takes multiple rounds and comes out looking like this piece of meat is going to keep going...

 

[BigBL87]

I think what it comes down to is priorities. You are more concerned with overpenetration, I'm more concerned with stopping power. Both are valid concerns. I'm a little less concerned than some about penetration be because I live in an 85 year old brick house with plaster and lath walls. Not as prone to penetration as drywall.

The video kind of illustrates why I don't like birdshot, the results are pretty grotesque looking but mostly superficial with not much penetration through only a 4 inch cut of meat. That's without any clothing covering it as well, you'd be amazed the difffence a winter jacket can make in tests like that. Not to mention, with how many shots he fired, that chunk of meat is still pretty darn intact. The same guy did a test with the several options for ammo. Check out the results.

 

[TheBeav815]

I think what it comes down to is priorities. You are more concerned with overpenetration, I'm more concerned with stopping power. Both are valid concerns. I'm a little less concerned than some about penetration be because I live in an 85 year old brick house with plaster and lath walls. Not as prone to penetration as drywall.

The video kind of illustrates why I don't like birdshot, the results are pretty grotesque looking but mostly superficial with not much penetration through only a 4 inch cut of meat. That's without any clothing covering it as well, you'd be amazed the difffence a winter jacket can make in tests like that. Not to mention, with how many shots he fired, that chunk of meat is still pretty darn intact. The same guy did a test with the several options for ammo. Check out the results.

View embedded media

It's definitely not the ideal test. A swinging block of meat isn't exactly the same thing. Each person will have different priorities depending on their home and who lives there.

It also depends on where on the body you catch the shot. 4-5" of penetration into your eyes and you're all done playing.

 

[otismotis08]

So load your shotgun the way I do. First couple of rounds are birdshot, next a few buckshot, followed by two slugs.

 

[suhnami]

It's definitely not the ideal test. A swinging block of meat isn't exactly the same thing. Each person will have different priorities depending on their home and who lives there.

It also depends on where on the body you catch the shot. 4-5" of penetration into your eyes and you're all done playing.

Assuming Beav has now unlocked the most annoying poster award... "well if you calculate the trigonometry of the projectile and the direction of you target while allowing for the cringe because you'll feel bad blah blah blah..." All your what-ifs are worn out

 

[TheBeav815]

Assuming Beav has now unlocked the most annoying poster award... "well if you calculate the trigonometry of the projectile and the direction of you target while allowing for the cringe because you'll feel bad blah blah blah..." All your what-ifs are worn out

Why don't you tour around to boot camps and present that attitude during weapons training and see how that goes for you. "Well if I don't keep my rifle clean it could fail when I need it in a life-or-death situation blah blah blah, all your what-if's are worn out, Drill Sergeant."

I guess knowing about ballistics is for sissy little nancy boys, is that pretty much what you're trying to suggest? There are guys who make their living dealing in the what-ifs you're so worn out about. They're called snipers.

And that's the difference between professionals like them and an amateur like you. Respect for the details.

 

[HeartMan]

One of the guys I shoot with has a Sig 220 (.45) and I absolutely love the gun but I can't get a good group with it to save my soul!


This post was edited on 4/19 8:52 PM by HeartMan


Were you shooting mostly low and to the left?
This post was edited on 4/20 5:56 AM by summersatthelake

As I recall it was low and left. Insight?

 

[HeartMan]

Thanks for all the great insight and comments. After further research, I opted for a Walther PPQ M2. Hopefully I'll put some rounds through in the next week or so and I'll report back.

 

[suhnami]

Why don't you tour around to boot camps and present that attitude during weapons training and see how that goes for you. "Well if I don't keep my rifle clean it could fail when I need it in a life-or-death situation blah blah blah, all your what-if's are worn out, Drill Sergeant."

I guess knowing about ballistics is for sissy little nancy boys, is that pretty much what you're trying to suggest? There are guys who make their living dealing in the what-ifs you're so worn out about. They're called snipers.

And that's the difference between professionals like them and an amateur like you. Respect for the details.

So much ignorance in one post. You don't know shit about ballistics, boot camps, snipers or anything else on this topic and your anti-gun bias overshadows everything. You have no business calling anyone an amateur. Can't say I'm surprised though.

 

[TheBeav815]

So much ignorance in one post. You don't know shit about ballistics, boot camps, snipers or anything else on this topic and your anti-gun bias overshadows everything. You have no business calling anyone an amateur. Can't say I'm surprised though.

Nice try. You can't refute a single thing I said with actual evidence, all you do is name call and stereotype.

A for effort, but overall you get an F in this thread. You contributed ZERO substance. The adults were over here having a discussion, and you were in your little corner throwing a tantrum.

The man made his purchase, the thread is over. Run along.

 

[summersatthelake]

As I recall it was low and left. Insight?

Anticipating recoil and jerking trigger. I used to shoot .45 auto, .40, .357 Sig, and 9mm and when I would go from 9mm to .45 and .40 I almost always shot low left for several magazines. That is why I now shoot 9mm and .357 Sig almost exclusively and my pattern is pretty consistent. Low left is very, very common and is a good example of why a bigger round is not always a better round if your accuracy is not as good....shot placement is key.

 

[HeartMan]

Anticipating recoil and jerking trigger. I used to shoot .45 auto, .40, .357 Sig, and 9mm and when I would go from 9mm to .45 and .40 I almost always shot low left for several magazines. That is why I now shoot 9mm and .357 Sig almost exclusively and my pattern is pretty consistent. Low left is very, very common and is a good example of why a bigger round is not always a better round if your accuracy is not as good....shot placement is key.

Thanks. I've been watching a variety of videos this week regarding stance, grip, etc. I've got a few things I want to try out at the range (hopefully next week).

 

[sparky62]

@TheBeav815 & @suhnami need to quit making it personal. Debate all you want to but the envelope is being pushed.

 

[TheBeav815]

@TheBeav815 & @suhnami need to quit making it personal. Debate all you want to but the envelope is being pushed.

Yeah, I'm in "no further replies" mode on this one.

 

[sparky62]

Yeah, I'm in "no further replies" mode on this one.

That might be a good thing for you.

 

[tarheelhusker]

Anticipating recoil and jerking trigger. I used to shoot .45 auto, .40, .357 Sig, and 9mm and when I would go from 9mm to .45 and .40 I almost always shot low left for several magazines. That is why I now shoot 9mm and .357 Sig almost exclusively and my pattern is pretty consistent. Low left is very, very common and is a good example of why a bigger round is not always a better round if your accuracy is not as good....shot placement is key.

Low, left...that's me! I aim for the head and hit the heart! Thanks for the graphic.

 

[otismotis08]

Practice practice practice

 

[summersatthelake]

Practice practice practice

Practice is certainly important but without the proper grip then shot placement can be erratic. I had been shooting pistols for over 35 years yet had erratic patterns at times...I took a 1 day course and immediately learned that I had been gripping incorrectly for all those years.

 

[HeartMan]

I think I'll keep it. This is at 15 yards, third clip. The 4 inside/touching the red ring were the last 4 shots. Probably not a marksman's pistol but it'll work.

 

[otismotis08]

Please don't say "clip".
It's a "magazine".

 

[BigBL87]

Please don't say "clip".
It's a "magazine".

It's a gunny thing, but it does bug me. Unless you're shooting an M1 or the like, of course.

 

[loper]

Find what you like.It's all personal preference. Personally I carry a S&W 40 cal semi. It's a little bigger and takes up a little more room but when I need it I'm stopping your ass. Isn't that he purpose?

I just bought one. I really like it.

 

[NikkiSixx]

Can't answer the OP question about those 2 choices, however for me, a big dog and a 1911 .45 with proper home defense ammunition (expanding type) is the direction I went. After shooting the 1911 in the Army many years ago, there isn't much else that comes close in terms of overall feel with excellent stopping power. Certainly there are choices for better accuracy, better capacity, lighter weight etc, but something about the overall package of that model works for me.

 

[Arbitr8]

I recently purchased the XDs 9 and I love it, smaller frame but a great CC weapon