Do you think maybe we're over analyzing things a little? Callahan was right. We need to get a life.
Frost: “Because this is my team now”
- Thread starter Pennsyhusker
- Start date
I agree that Frost will probably get a longer leash than any other coach in the ncaa. I do think if any other coach would have this start many more would be yelling and screaming. As many have said this could be one of the toughest rebuilds in the country and maybe even ncaa history.
We all know what Riley did to the program. This team has been in a nose dive for 3 years with all the momentum going down. That isn't something that can be instantly fixed in 9 months and few JUCO players. Yes I agree we should be better than what we are. Some of that falls on Frost. I think he, like Chip Kelley are taking the same approach. Instead of slowly implementing their systems and maybe working with the talent he has to maybe get to 5 or 6 wins this year. They have elected to just jump in head first. Go100%, and while they know they probably don't have the guys, they are running their system with or with out the correct players. We are seeing how that looks.
In the short term it looks horrific. In the long term I think he saved us a year or 2 of mediocre football by doing it this way. Gives the younger guys an extra year or 2 to learn the whole system, instead of learning half the system. Also it helps to sort out the guys who are willing to "buy in" and those who think it is too difficult. Those who can do it will rise to the top, those who can't will get frustrated and leave. As he says, trust the process. It looks bad now, but I believe better is just around the corner.
I think the players have been playing hard. I think the new schemes have led to players looking tentative and slow. The Huskers haven't played disciplined football in many years. There has been breakdowns in one or more areas of the football team every game for a long time.
I'm not going to place blame on Frost or the players this year. It's an issue that is being addressed. Habits are hard to break.
Sure!
I do think Frost is of two minds about this team. I have no idea what effect that is having on actual outcomes though.
What do you mean by “Frost is of two minds about this team?”
Having coached high school football for 20 years and taking jobs at programs that were winless or had never had a winning record, I can say from experience that it can take time to instill a new culture and clean up the problems of previous regimes. I can only imagine that it can be worse at the college level because the players are even older than high school students. Just my 2 cents.
Frost had a choice to make from the time he released the first depth chart, either build a culture or try and win games with the more gifted athletes. He chose to try and win games. As I said from the beginning, it is extremely difficult to do both. Benching players now may be too little too late. If players are missing classes etc, like Frost said, and still played, that is 100% on him. You can’t preach accountability and then reward players who aren’t accountable. You just told the backup that you don’t think he is good enough, even though he does everything you’ve asked.
Our fans want to compare this situation to others but you really can't do it unless you know what was going on behind the scenes. There does seem to be a pattern where a really bad team is harder to pick up after than an average team that under achieves. There is no evidence we underachieved under Riley, but were just not very good in a lot of areas. Losing all of your scholarship qbs also hurts because the common denominator between all good first years is a veteran starting qb. Being 0-4 hurts but the reality is being 2-2 right now wouldn't make the process go faster, we wouldn't be a better team if we somehow pulled out the first two games. So pull the bandaid quick, let it sting, and then let it rip.
Well we are going have to agree to disagree on this point. Bo's last couple of teams outright hissed at anyone who dared criticize them. Then three seasons of Mike "Gomer Pyle" Riley only solidified an attitude of entitlement and lack of commitment by enough players that poor undisciplined play became the norm. The next step in this evolution is losing became acceptable. I don't think it is an easy fix at all for Scott and I am willing to bet any marked improvement will require several players to vacate the premises.
If that's the case, it appears Frost got rid of the wrong players. There were several players let go in the off season because they didn't fit the system. Maybe he should have gotten rid of the cancerous players before he got rid of the misfits.
I can't imagine how difficult it is to be in Scott's shoes right now. He knows what great football looks like and he knows what it takes to get there. Then he looks at his team and sees an insane asylum. How do you choose between talented yet lazy undisciplined entitled kids that are ok with losing and players who are inexperienced or not talented enough or maybe they are not physically ready? I think hes doing the only thing he can do and that is draw a line in the sand. The kids that give max effort and play with discipline get to cross that line. The rest are riding the bench. I have no problem with him singling out players he wants to go to war with because that is telling the rest of the team who they should emulate. Screw this throwing ppl under the bus PC bullsh1t. If its a spade call it a spade. GBR!!!!!
That would be great but he isn’t doing any of that except calling people out by name. He is playing into the PC stuff, he isn’t always playing player who give max effort, he didn’t draw a line in the sand.
It comes down to the fact that Frost chose trying to win games over establishing and solidifying culture. There are no two ways about it.
For the record, I don’t know that I would have done it any other way. People making 5 million dollars per year aren’t typically guys that don’t have big egos and like to lose. Choosing to lose is much different than just getting beat.
It is a tough spot, no doubt
I agree with your overall point here. I wish Frost had identified some of the bad apples sooner and benched them. It seems to me that he thought he had a better team than he has and has been caught by surprise at a lot of the undisciplined play. I think it has taken him a while to have that fact fully sink in. Frost coaches with a certain swagger and bravado. It sometimes leads him to say things in public he shouldn't. But it is all part of his persona and it is why he does instill that same swagger in some of this players, which is a good thing. But I think he is just now waking up to the fact that some of these guys needed less swagger and more "brick and mortar" grind and work.
But I disagree about the idea that he should have been able to identify the guys who were missing classes and so on before now. We are only about five weeks into the fall term. I can attest to the fact, as a former prof, that you really cannot tell early in the semester if a student athlete is a chronic class skipper or not. Often they will start off fine but lose their mojo about three to four weeks in as the party circuit kicks in. And coaches would not get their first written progress reports on the athletes until about now. There is no way a coach can keep up with that many players and their class habits. They get reports from profs. And that process begins about now.
How did Riley and staff miss that Nate Gerry had stopped going to class? Easy. Go to class all September, then wait until that first report is sent to the coach, then skip classes all October and early November. The next report probably does not reach Riley's desk until just before Thanksgiving.
The fact of the matter is that it is possible for a team to have a really bad chemistry due to very few bad apples. It is also possible for a very good coach to come into a situation like that, but not know it until the season starts. College age guys can be great prevaricators and charlatans. They are gifted at hiding shit. They can really spew some bullshit and present a false front.
Let's take as an example, Texas. They are loaded with great athletes. Yet, until recently, every good coach they got to come to Austin has struggled. Were those bad coaches? Probably not. But they walked into a toxic stew of bad habits and pampered stud athletes who did not want to buy in. Florida State comes to mind as well. And Tennessee. And UCLA. And so on. Chemistry is a lot more important to a successful team than many on here are willing to admit.
Frost has proven that he is a good coach who knows how to build a winning program. I don't care what some on here say about that. You can claim that his UCF success was a fluke, a "one off" anomaly, "catching lightening in a bottle" and all of that. I am not buying it. You don't go from 0-12 to 12-0 in two years based on a fluke. And his offenses at Oregon were stellar.
So in one year we go from worrying about whether or not we could get him to come home, since every college in America wanted him, to wondering if he is a fraud? Give me a break.
I am not saying he has not made mistakes. He has. I think he is learning that his swagger and bravado are premature at this point. I think he has some ego in him and some arrogance. I am not blind to his faults. But all great coaches have some ego and arrogance. Osborne did as well, but masked it behind his "aw Shucks" humble public persona. And Nick Saban is an arrogant prick. But it works when you have athletes. It doesn't when you don't.
For me the acid test of whether or not Frost will succeed here is on the recruiting front. We need more really good athletes. And we need a process of player development that is second to none. So my only real concern about our shitty start to this year is that it will hurt our recruiting. Otherwise I think our future is bright. Because Frost IS a good coach.
Let's take as an example, Texas. They are loaded with great athletes. Yet, until recently, every good coach they got to come to Austin has struggled. Were those bad coaches? Probably not. But they walked into a toxic stew of bad habits and pampered stud athletes who did not want to buy in. Florida State comes to mind as well. And Tennessee. And UCLA. And so on. Chemistry is a lot more important to a successful team than many on here are willing to admit.
Frost has proven that he is a good coach who knows how to build a winning program. I don't care what some on here say about that. You can claim that his UCF success was a fluke, a "one off" anomaly, "catching lightening in a bottle" and all of that. I am not buying it. You don't go from 0-12 to 12-0 in two years based on a fluke. And his offenses at Oregon were stellar.
So in one year we go from worrying about whether or not we could get him to come home, since every college in America wanted him, to wondering if he is a fraud? Give me a break.
I am not saying he has not made mistakes. He has. I think he is learning that his swagger and bravado are premature at this point. I think he has some ego in him and some arrogance. I am not blind to his faults. But all great coaches have some ego and arrogance. Osborne did as well, but masked it behind his "aw Shucks" humble public persona. And Nick Saban is an arrogant prick. But it works when you have athletes. It doesn't when you don't.
For me the acid test of whether or not Frost will succeed here is on the recruiting front. We need more really good athletes. And we need a process of player development that is second to none. So my only real concern about our shitty start to this year is that it will hurt our recruiting. Otherwise I think our future is bright. Because Frost IS a good coach.
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You are choosing to only pick going to class in your response. Look at it this way if those guys weren’t buying in or were missing other things or had a history of missing class or work out and there were no repercussions for missing or buying in then Skipping class may just be the next thing that they didn’t think they would be punished for. As far as Nate Gerry goes I believe it is fairly common knowledge that Riley did not monitor classes and who went. So it wasn’t a matter of noticing too late. They just went About it differently.
You are correct that I am focusing on that one issue. Which is why I said I generally agree with the main point of your post. But you mentioned the class attendance thingy and I have some experience with that issue and how it relates to student athletes, so I thought I would comment on that one point.
As for the other issues.... I am not certain any of us really knows what all of the issues are and how much Frost was aware of them from the get-go. The off the field stuff (like going to class and how you treat the lunch line people and going to too many parties) might take a coach a little longer to figure out. That was my main point with regard to classes but it might be more generally applicable to other off the field issues as well this early in the term. But missing workouts and lazy practice habits would be a different story completely.
So like you I am puzzled by why he hasn't disciplined some of these bad apples sooner. Maybe he thought he could "fix them"? Maybe he lacks depth at certain spots and it would hurt, as you point out, his efforts to "win now".
As I have said on here many times, I am a huge believer in Frost's abilities. I have 100% confidence in his ability to turn this thing around.
But that does not mean he is immune from making mistakes. And I really wish both he and some of the players would just stop talking about "buy in" and "bad habits" and "culture" and "going to battle". Because at this juncture of the season it just sounds like deflecting blame and whining. It is getting to be counter productive. Either shit or get off of the pot. Bench the bad apples and play other guys, or STFU about it and move on.
Edit: Riley did not monitor his player's class attendance??? Surely there was someone in the athletic offices whose job is precisely to do just that. Did he tell that person or persons to stand down? Or did he tell them to do their jobs but to not forward the information to him? Because some of this stuff (reporting to the coaches by faculty) is required by most universities for ALL of their sports and the coaches have no choice in the matter. So I really have a very hard time believing that Riley did not get reports on this kind of thing. So if he did not know about Gerry it would have to be because he just tossed those reports he got in the trash without reading them. Or he delegated the task of keeping up with these reports to the position coaches. So maybe Gerry's position coach knew but did not tell Riley because he needed Gerry to play.
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Maybe since he has stated that"this is my team now" that excuse doesn't fit the narrative and would be a hypocritical comment
I think high school is worse. AtleasAt in college you can get players you need or want. High school you get the kids you get. And if there is zero talent and zero desire or culture, you have to change that when kids are in grade school.....takes almost a decade to reap the benefits
Culture is changed by changing players & existing players changing. There needs to be leadership on the field that takes care of problems that need taken care of. A team that is getting throttled like we have been should not be dancing on the sidelines, but the players need to take care of this, not a coach. The leaders need to be respected older class players that address the team, set goals, rules, & a general psyche for the team. The players will learn from there. Stille, Gifford et al have to be some guys that take bigger roles regarding the future direction of the team.
Too simplistic. You have to know who the team respects and who are the leaders. You don't appoint leaders. There will simply have more people that follow the negative leaders, there are simply more people that think they should be on the field than there are available spots. When you get enough people following the rules and not rewarded with playing time, and those who aren't following the rules are rewarded with playing time. The senior not playing, or the junior that is following the rules, but loses faith in the system is a whole lot easier to follow.
I agree with you that it's taken some time for him to realize what situation we're in and how bad this team really is. You didn't see in his prior press conferences a whole lot of urgency and I think he thought he could keep doing the same stuff and things would get better, but I think after the Purdue game, you can see how frustrated he is with how his team has played and he seems to know that things need to change if anything is going to get better. I hope that's reflected in the players and we have a new attitude going into Wisconsin.
Yep. I think his thought processes about the start of our season went something like this:
1. Colorado. We should have won this game. Damn mistakes killed us. If we had played Akron and gotten the kinks out we would have won. No need to panic.
2. Troy: Shit. Another game we should have won but our ineptitude was mainly on offense and that is understandable since we were playing our back up QB who has little threat of running. We will be OK when Martinez is back. This really sucks but still no need to panic. Stay the course.
3. Michigan: Ok, there are some issues we have to address, but we were just kicked in the ass by a vastly superior team. Next week is on to Purdue which is a team we match up well with on the level of talent. No need to panic. Fix some of our lingering mistakes, win at home next week, and the season will be in reset mode.
4. Purdue: Oh f$ck. We have issues.
So this epiphany happened to fall after the fourth game and all the schools on the quarters system have started classes. Strange coincidence.
The changes in the depth chart, especially when it comes to Lamar Jackson. The whole post game speech stuff.
No offense to anyone, but this staff was talking about selfish play from Jackson all spring. You remember, we already have 4 star players with attitude comment from the DB coach.
This isn't new behavior, the benching just coincidenly comes at a time when he can no longer transfer this year, and still use his redshirt.
No offense to anyone, but this staff was talking about selfish play from Jackson all spring. You remember, we already have 4 star players with attitude comment from the DB coach.
This isn't new behavior, the benching just coincidenly comes at a time when he can no longer transfer this year, and still use his redshirt.
Not a strange coincidence necessarily. Lol. Define strange!
But it really could just be a coincidence. Right? I don't think they were all that jazzed up about Lee either and not real confident he would be better than Jackson. I think Jackson got benched because he finally made one mistake too many. But I think they saw him, despite his issues, as having more athletic upside so they rolled the dice with him. They hoped he would improve. He hasn't. Instead he makes dumb mistakes.
That scenario, it seems to me, is just as plausible as your more cynical take on the situation. Unless you have some kind of insider information concerning Frost's motives I don't see, why is it necessary to cast aspersions at his approach here without any evidence at all? Just the coincidence of timing. That is thin evidence to make such a charge it seems to me. Unless you have other reasons for disliking Frost. I see no evidence that you do. So it leaves me puzzled.
Edit: And correct me if I am wrong, but I think Jackson could still transfer and redshirt after this game and his benching, since it is only four games.
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Got it. Frost received criticism for being honest with Gebbia and Martinez at the start of the season, instead of stringing out Gebbia past the point where he could transfer.
I'm thinking that this new redshirt rule is going to create a lot of animosity in the future.
I'm thinking that this new redshirt rule is going to create a lot of animosity in the future.
He can transfer and redshirt, but he still has to sit out next year, since he won't be in residence at a new school for an entire year. It would make more sense to wait and transfer after the season is over, then use the redshirt next year, while he sits out. At least he can play during scrub time here.
They can still transfer and not lose a season. We have only played four games, it's happening all over CFB.
Never said a word about appointing leaders. HCSF just said it today, no matter how many times it comes out of a coaches mouth there are some times that it needs to come from the players to the players.
Our 4th game is a week after everyone else’s 4th game.
A player has to be in residence this fall to be eligible next fall, unless they are grad transfers.
I think you are right on the money. Purdue showed this is a bigger issue that he or any of us thought. I think that is why we are seeing the harder stance on things now. Sounded like practices have been much better the last 2 days. In Frosts words, "everyone is fighting hard now" Maybe Frost and Staff had a real get in or there is the door talk with these guys.
I'm ready for the talk to end. I know Frost has an obligation to do it, so I don't care much about his chatter, but the players need to just talk football and moving forward. Farmer & Foster do a ton of talking and then nothing during the games. We need to be done talking and start acting.
I mean it this time. No really, this time I really mean it. If you don’t work hard and buy in then......
This season, for all intents and purposes, is over. Time to play the guys they expect to be here next year and those buying in. Apologize to the seniors for having a shitty experience and move on. Play guys like Gifford and Ozigbo, maybe a few others, but it’s time to see what is really in the cupboard.
This season, for all intents and purposes, is over. Time to play the guys they expect to be here next year and those buying in. Apologize to the seniors for having a shitty experience and move on. Play guys like Gifford and Ozigbo, maybe a few others, but it’s time to see what is really in the cupboard.
