Coan arrives

[CC_Lemming]

I do not disagree with what you are saying but can understand why the rankings can be questioned. Even looking at my own school (Michigan grad) I question the rankings. When pubs put together lists of top research institutions we are generally top 5. When you talk grad schools generally top 10. Overall top 25 in the world. However, when rankings look just at the undergrad we slip a bit.

It is more than fair to say that things like research and graduate programs have little to do (only in select situations does it have a direct effect...indirect is a much longer discussion) with the undergraduate experience. However, if you are going to separate things to get a true ranking of the undergraduate experience you need to do it on a more apples to apples criteria. Michigan is not unique when it comes to this, but as a larger university, what separates it from many of the universities above it or around it (rankings wise) is the breath of programs it offers.

While I think it is great Michigan offers programs like Nursing, (The School of) Natural Resources (aka tree hugging), Kinis, etc. they all have their own admissions and the standards are below (in some cases far below) those of the core schools such as LS&A (Liberal Arts), Engin and Business. And in general many of the smaller universities only offer those core programs and are thus not weighted down (in the rankings). I'm not sure what percentage of the undergrad population is in those "outside" schools but it is enough to effect the rankings but at the same time does not represent the "general" student population (they have zero impact on the majority of undergrad students' experience and education) .

So my point wasn't to just say Michigan should be ranked higher...it is actually that the bigger a school is the more you need to start stripping away layers in order to get the real picture. And at least from a Wall Street recruiting standpoint (I've seen insider lists on priority schools) I think they do. I know Michigan is generally considered higher by them then what they are on the US News list...but here is one that might surprise you...PSU shoots up through the rankings...who would of thunk it (well I guess those who strip things down to the core did)...

You bring up great points, but as I think you will agree, at the end of the day we still have to use some criteria to rate schools. The points you raise invite skepticism as to the overall rankings used by many publications, which include, as you note, the rankings of the graduate school and quality of research.

I'm not sure all that a specifically undergraduate criteria would take into account, probably things like access to professors, class size, expense of education, average gpa, things like that. In any case, and you may very well agree given your comment about their "indirect" influence, it is foolish to focus on criteria that are disconnected from quality of research and graduate school rankings. One reason why is that top graduate schools tend to attract top graduate students who, assuming they are motivated to educate and not merely research (as I take it many are), will likely teach the material more effectively than a TA at a lower ranked school. So while professors at public universities may have little effect on the quality of a student's education, since it may be that they only interact with students perhaps two to three times a week during lecture, TAs can and do have a profound effect on the quality of the undergraduate experience.

 

[GretnaShawn]

If you're going to get industry-specific, then you would expect to see that schools with notoriously good and competitive programs carry a little extra weight in certain arenas. Nebraska's psychology department, for example, has a very solid reputation. I recall K-State being known as a good veterinary program back when I was searching for colleges, etc.

But a smart HR recruiter knows just like a good sports recruiter does that talent is not always found in just one place.

Yep. There is a reason why there are a ton of engineers in Omaha that are Iowa State grads. It's because their engineering program is very highly regarded.

 

[dockentwo]

A lot of it is going to fall what state you live and what job your applying for, in Nebraska I doubt theres going to many HRs that care if your a UNL grad or Wisky grad, point is you got a degree and more times then not, its not going to matter which name your an alumni at, unless Yale, Harvard, Standford or some 5 star type college. Wisky and UNL is more on the same level then compared to said groups above.

This is dated data; but up to about 15 years ago and maybe still; the average Ivy league graduate didn't make up the difference in tuition costs over a public institution graduate. It is so individual. Also most graduate programs require testing and our students do fine and even excel. Many of the med centers programs attain top ratings ; even top five; with mostly N graduates. N is a great degree for any player and we have more career choices and chances than most. IMO

 

[jlb321]

 

[ellobo]

You bring up great points, but as I think you will agree, at the end of the day we still have to use some criteria to rate schools. The points you raise invite skepticism as to the overall rankings used by many publications, which include, as you note, the rankings of the graduate school and quality of research.

I'm not sure all that a specifically undergraduate criteria would take into account, probably things like access to professors, class size, expense of education, average gpa, things like that. In any case, and you may very well agree given your comment about their "indirect" influence, it is foolish to focus on criteria that are disconnected from quality of research and graduate school rankings. One reason why is that top graduate schools tend to attract top graduate students who, assuming they are motivated to educate and not merely research (as I take it many are), will likely teach the material more effectively than a TA at a lower ranked school. So while professors at public universities may have little effect on the quality of a student's education, since it may be that they only interact with students perhaps two to three times a week during lecture, TAs can and do have a profound effect on the quality of the undergraduate experience.

We are not disagreeing but maybe I'm not making my central point clear. I'm sure Michigan is not unique in this matter, I use it because as my school I know it:

Michigan's primary undergraduate program is the College of Literature, Science & Arts (LS&A). It is just another way of saying "Liberal Arts" and is what "in general" a HS student applies to. It is of course the largest, oldest and central (literally as it is central campus) at the university. It also covers almost all the majors that a smaller (and/or) private university does. For example Michigan LS&A=almost all of Notre Dame (undergrad).

However, Michigan also has other "colleges" that have their own set of criteria, administration/support/logistics, admissions and in many case even their own little mini-campuses. In a couple cases they are actually harder to get into but those are more established fields (that a more common at all universities) such as engineering which was spun off a long time ago and is located on "North Campus." However, there have been a good number of colleges either created and/or highly invested in (mostly in the last 20-30 years) that quite frankly have lower admissions standards and some still try to use as a backdoor into Michigan...and do note: getting into these programs does not mean they can just transfer in LS&A...very few can even though they are allowed to take classes in LS&A and prove themselves.

So here is the rub...ALL of Michigan (undergrad) is being compared to just the LS&A portion of some other schools (in some rankings) because they don't have those colleges. It's not apples to apples. I've seen my school drop from being top 20 in the US News rankings to top 25 to now just inside the top 30 in the years since I was there...and the biggest thing that has changed (compared to smaller universities) is the growth of the "outside" colleges. It's not that they are overtaking LS&A in number of students; it's more of an erosion effect on the rankings as those colleges aren't insignificant in numbers anymore. So I do think the "rankings" need to be more apples to apples and maybe separate even more out. But I don't think this is unique to Michigan and I do think major corporate recruiters understand this.

 

[CC_Lemming]

We are not disagreeing but maybe I'm not making my central point clear. I'm sure Michigan is not unique in this matter, I use it because as my school I know it:

Michigan's primary undergraduate program is the College of Literature, Science & Arts (LS&A). It is just another way of saying "Liberal Arts" and is what "in general" a HS student applies to. It is of course the largest, oldest and central (literally as it is central campus) at the university. It also covers almost all the majors that a smaller (and/or) private university does. For example Michigan LS&A=almost all of Notre Dame (undergrad).

However, Michigan also has other "colleges" that have their own set of criteria, administration/support/logistics, admissions and in many case even their own little mini-campuses. In a couple cases they are actually harder to get into but those are more established fields (that a more common at all universities) such as engineering which was spun off a long time ago and is located on "North Campus." However, there have been a good number of colleges either created and/or highly invested in (mostly in the last 20-30 years) that quite frankly have lower admissions standards and some still try to use as a backdoor into Michigan...and do note: getting into these programs does not mean they can just transfer in LS&A...very few can even though they are allowed to take classes in LS&A and prove themselves.

So here is the rub...ALL of Michigan (undergrad) is being compared to just the LS&A portion of some other schools (in some rankings) because they don't have those colleges. It's not apples to apples. I've seen my school drop from being top 20 in the US News rankings to top 25 to now just inside the top 30 in the years since I was there...and the biggest thing that has changed (compared to smaller universities) is the growth of the "outside" colleges. It's not that they are overtaking LS&A in number of students; it's more of an erosion effect on the rankings as those colleges aren't insignificant in numbers anymore. So I do think the "rankings" need to be more apples to apples and maybe separate even more out. But I don't think this is unique to Michigan and I do think major corporate recruiters understand this.

I see, that helped clarify things. You have a third reason for being skeptical of specific undergraduate ratings, as they aren't always comparing the same things (depending on the metric used and what schools/colleges it takes into account). I know all too well that bigger universities are comprised of smaller schools/colleges that have varying standards. I am a graduate student in the college of humanities at one such school myself, and it has some of the lowest requirements at my institution, which means we typically do not get the best students. (It is very apparent when TAing a course like logic or critical thinking, which attracts engineering and computer science majors in addition to those in the school of humanities).

If I were an 18 year old looking at colleges and cared about rankings (I did not so much, as I was a scholarship athlete, but with only a handful of options, so I was going to one of five schools no matter what because they were offering support), I'd look at the rankings of individual colleges and see how they stack up with others. But I'd also take those with a grain of salt, as it's generally the case that a) students don't know what they want to major in, or b) will change what they intend to major in (this was me).

I still think the sorts of general rankings cited earlier, i.e., those including research and graduate schools, are fine ratings to look at when deciding whether one school is better than another. But as you've pointed out, they should not be taken as a final judgment concerning the quality of the education you might receive.

On the other hand, at least early on some in this thread seemed to be dismissive of those ratings entirely, and that I do not understand.

 

[Cloud@Heart]

Academics aside, because they are so hard to compare, go play in front of the best fans in the country, with above average facilities and coaches, at an institution that leads the NATION in academic all Americans by a large margin. GBR and it's not even close!

 

[ellobo]

I see, that helped clarify things. You have a third reason for being skeptical of specific undergraduate ratings, as they aren't always comparing the same things (depending on the metric used and what schools/colleges it takes into account). I know all too well that bigger universities are comprised of smaller schools/colleges that have varying standards. I am a graduate student in the college of humanities at one such school myself, and it has some of the lowest requirements at my institution, which means we typically do not get the best students. (It is very apparent when TAing a course like logic or critical thinking, which attracts engineering and computer science majors in addition to those in the school of humanities).

If I were an 18 year old looking at colleges and cared about rankings (I did not so much, as I was a scholarship athlete, but with only a handful of options, so I was going to one of five schools no matter what because they were offering support), I'd look at the rankings of individual colleges and see how they stack up with others. But I'd also take those with a grain of salt, as it's generally the case that a) students don't know what they want to major in, or b) will change what they intend to major in (this was me).

I still think the sorts of general rankings cited earlier, i.e., those including research and graduate schools, are fine ratings to look at when deciding whether one school is better than another. But as you've pointed out, they should not be taken as a final judgment concerning the quality of the education you might receive.

On the other hand, at least early on some in this thread seemed to be dismissive of those ratings entirely, and that I do not understand.

I still don't think you are getting it. I say this because of your second paragraph about how 18 year olds don't know what they want to do.

If you are a LS&A student at Michigan...you might start out thinking you want to be a physics major...but one day you decide you want to be a philosophy major...the day next day an econ major...the day after that a history major...the day after that a computer science major...the day after that an English major with a minor in anthropology...the day after that a political science major...by the 7th day you decide you are all about numbers and decide to become a math or statistics major...

If you are a LS&A (Liberal Arts) student at Michigan all it takes to change from one of those majors to the next is changing the type of courses you are taking and at some point filling out a form that says you are declaring (or changing) your major...well that and the ability to pass those type of classes of course.

On the other hand, if you got into the Nursing School you cannot do that. I was not a nursing student so maybe they have sub-majors (don't know) but they can't just decide they want to major in something outside of nursing unless they apply for a transfer to another school/college. They were not accepted into what is basically Michigan's "general" school...the College of LS&A. They are basically on the same footing, in regard to having to apply, as someone who goes to U of M Flint or Dearborn...but when it comes to ranking no one would even consider grouping in Flint or Dearborn with U of M Ann Arbor. They know they are essentially different things. But with the "outside" colleges (located in Ann Arbor) the rankings don't treat it that way.

Do you now understand?

 

[cornhustler]

Nerd alert! Maybe we should take this university phallus measuring contest over to the Academics Board... oh wait it doesn't exist because no one cares! If we lose Coan to Wisco because of academics I am fine with it, I want dudes.. mean, bad, dudes! I don't give a rip if they can read or write. We'll teach 'em because that is what it's all about. Being literate and playing football. I am tired of this student athlete bull-poop. These dudes rage in front of 90k, study and you will do well, do well and you will get a job. Get a job and bank 75% of your income, bank 75% and retire early. Then watch all the "smart" peeps still working past 50... but hey they have the Best Diploma.

I am joking of course but in all seriousness I doubt a D1 quarterback with very high marks would have any serious trouble finding an excellent job, plus there is always grad school to fall back on.

Joel Goodson, "Looks like University of Illinois!"

 

[ellobo]

Nerd alert! Maybe we should take this university phallus measuring contest over to the Academics Board... oh wait it doesn't exist because no one cares! If we lose Coan to Wisco because of academics I am fine with it, I want dudes.. mean, bad, dudes! I don't give a rip if they can read or write. We'll teach 'em because that is what it's all about. Being literate and playing football. I am tired of this student athlete bull-poop. These dudes rage in front of 90k, study and you will do well, do well and you will get a job. Get a job and bank 75% of your income, bank 75% and retire early. Then watch all the "smart" peeps still working past 50... but hey they have the Best Diploma.

I am joking of course but in all seriousness I doubt a D1 quarterback with very high marks would have any serious trouble finding an excellent job, plus there is always grad school to fall back on.

Joel Goodson, "Looks like University of Illinois!"

 

[CC_Lemming]

I still don't think you are getting it. I say this because of your second paragraph about how 18 year olds don't know what they want to do.

If you are a LS&A student at Michigan...you might start out thinking you want to be a physics major...but one day you decide you want to be a philosophy major...the day next day an econ major...the day after that a history major...the day after that a computer science major...the day after that an English major with a minor in anthropology...the day after that a political science major...by the 7th day you decide you are all about numbers and decide to become a math or statistics major...

If you are a LS&A (Liberal Arts) student at Michigan all it takes to change from one of those majors to the next is changing the type of courses you are taking and at some point filling out a form that says you are declaring (or changing) your major...well that and the ability to pass those type of classes of course.

On the other hand, if you got into the Nursing School you cannot do that. I was not a nursing student so maybe they have sub-majors (don't know) but they can't just decide they want to major in something outside of nursing unless they apply for a transfer to another school/college. They were not accepted into what is basically Michigan's "general" school...the College of LS&A. They are basically on the same footing, in regard to having to apply, as someone who goes to U of M Flint or Dearborn...but when it comes to ranking no one would even consider grouping in Flint or Dearborn with U of M Ann Arbor. They know they are essentially different things. But with the "outside" colleges (located in Ann Arbor) the rankings don't treat it that way.

Do you now understand?

I don't see what I am missing, and I don't see that I was saying anything in conflict with what you went on to elaborate. My point was simply that if I were an 18 year old looking at specific colleges relative to the major I intended to pursue, I'd take any and all such rankings with a grain of salt knowing that most students do not stick with their initial intended major. I take it your point is that intended major would matter insofar as one would be applying to a specific college, which may have lower standards and will prevent you from transferring seamlessly. I made no claim about that one way or the other that I can see.

 

[Reedm]

Your statement is just a tad ignorant. Wisky is a very highly regarded university. My nephew in the Milwaukee area has zero chance of getting into there, and most of his friends at his school are in the same boat. It is VERY difficult to get into, even as an in state resident. Just the way it is.

Tied for 11th in public universities
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandr...ges/rankings/national-universities/top-public

#41 overall
http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/national-universities/page+4

Absolutely true, I live in Minneapolis and friends if my kids that get in there all have ACT's in the 30's and then still have to compete to get the major they want. It's on a different level than NU currently although we're gaining. Athletic facilities are crap at Wisconsin compared to NU though as well as academic support for athletes.

 

[TheBeav815]

We've been overlooking a VERY important point, which is that this kid will have advantages by virtue of being a football player that will outweigh any difference in degree prestige between a couple of B1G schools.

That network of former players and coaches' buddies that can hook them up with a job is a bigger leg up than any "School A vs School B" separation could ever be.

 

[ellobo]

I don't see what I am missing, and I don't see that I was saying anything in conflict with what you went on to elaborate. My point was simply that if I were an 18 year old looking at specific colleges relative to the major I intended to pursue, I'd take any and all such rankings with a grain of salt knowing that most students do not stick with their initial intended major. I take it your point is that intended major would matter insofar as one would be applying to a specific college, which may have lower standards and will prevent you from transferring seamlessly. I made no claim about that one way or the other that I can see.

That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that Michigan has a Liberal Arts program (college) which is generally what one talks about when they say "undergrad." It encompasses pretty much all the standard majors that all 4 year schools have. And you apply to LS&A (not a specific major) and can decide later if you want to major in English, history, a language, philosophy, anthropology, chemistry, biology, math, computer science, psychology, etc.

But in addition to that, Michigan also has separate "specialty" (undergrad) programs (colleges) that are almost like trade schools. While it not unique to Michigan, a lot of smaller schools don't have them. And, since these specialty programs have their own admissions (mostly lower) if you take them out of the equation (comparing apples to apples) the numbers for Michigan (and other large schools like it), from GPA/SAT scores to average salary after graduation, would rise. Thus likely the general ranking as well.

 

[CC_Lemming]

That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that Michigan has a Liberal Arts program (college) which is generally what one talks about when they say "undergrad." It encompasses pretty much all the standard majors that all 4 year schools have. And you apply to LS&A (not a specific major) and can decide later if you want to major in English, history, a language, philosophy, anthropology, chemistry, biology, math, computer science, psychology, etc.

But in addition to that, Michigan also has separate "specialty" (undergrad) programs (colleges) that are almost like trade schools. While it not unique to Michigan, a lot of smaller schools don't have them. And, since these specialty programs have their own admissions (mostly lower) if you take them out of the equation (comparing apples to apples) the numbers for Michigan (and other large schools like it), from GPA/SAT scores to average salary after graduation, would rise. Thus likely the general ranking as well.

Got it.