If he is an official that referees college football, then he will have attended all the required meetings, passed the rules test, and remained up-to-date on weekly videos and rules interpretations that are put our by each conference's coordinator of officials. By default, its either all or none. So, yes, I will respect what he has to say on the matter.
#56 from Minnesota throws 2 punches, video inside
- Thread starter GBRhuskers
- Start date
If he is an official that referees college football, then he will have attended all the required meetings, passed the rules test, and remained up-to-date on weekly videos and rules interpretations that are put our by each conference's coordinator of officials. By default, its either all or none. So, yes, I will respect what he has to say on the matter.
OK, I understand he was punching at the football, but since it was obvious that the ball wasn't "punched out", where were those punches landing? On Newby's biceps? Forearms? I am pretty sure there was a little more malicious intent than that.... Remember Ben Cotton in the Texas A&M game? The A&M player said he was just trying to "punch the ball(s) out".
The response from the football official that I texted and added to my previous post laid it out pretty clearly, if it is a judged attempt at the ball, then no foul, regardless of where the punches land. You don't have the agree with the judgement of the official, but the interpretation on that play, per a Division 1 football official, is that missing the football with a punch deemed an attempt at the ball and hitting something else does not meet criteria for a striking foul.
I also tend to agree with another poster, having played college football, that someone punching any part of my upper body is one of the less painful things that would happen to me during any given play. Helmets, cleats, elbows, toes, shin bones, etc all did more damage to me than a player without great leverage punching at my upper body or even my lower body minus the groin. Though, there is special protection given to the groin area in both football and basketball, and even a minimal flick or snap of the fingers to the groin, if deemed intentional, is grounds for getting tossed.
A
anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi
Guest
Agreed. The thing I hated was getting a facemask to the elbow when carrying the ball. Seemed like it always landed between the bones. I hated the feel of elbow pads as a qb. It was like my elbow had facemask magnets inside!
Why is no one bringing up the defensive players that were pushing Utter five yards back or knocking him down constantly during the middle of a play, especially when he was just standing there....
Not even close to the same. Thomas' intent is extremely clear, in the open field.
Good interpretation. However should have included that the punches were thrown at the helmet / neck level while the ball was not.
What you said. I once played the whole second half of a game in JUCO with a numb arm. I got hit right in the funny bone with someones facemask. I keep two hands on the ball because we keep running off guard/ tackle to kill the clock. I had to do this because I couldn't tell if I still had the ball in my right hand. Crazy game.
Striking Fouls and Tripping
ARTICLE 2. a. No person subject to the rules shall strike an opponent with the knee; strike an opponent’s helmet (including the face mask), neck, face or any other part of the body with an extended forearm, elbow, locked hands, palm, fist, or the heel, back or side of the open hand; or gouge an opponent (A.R. 9-1-2-I).
You at least quoted the right rule. The rulebook usually states what you CAN'T do, not things your CAN do. If it's not listed under things you can't do, then it's legal. As a clarification there are various rules that have what's legal. So 'striking' or punching at a ball is legal.
This play looks bad because the punches are into a pile. Given the score and time left in the game, he's making an attempt at the ball, not trying to hit another player.
I'm sure the officials saw it on field and made the judgement that he's making an attempt at the ball. They'll send it in for review, if they feel it was not a legal attempt at the ball and punches were intended for an opposing player, he'll be suspended next game. If not, he'll be playing.
Do you do high school games in Nebraska? Are there some staffs that are just super annoying?
I was struggling with how to tell him where the punches occurred. By looking at the video, I can't even tell based on how many people there are in the pile and no clear image of the ball. Running backs tend to carry the ball high, at chest/neck level when they're trying to protect it. They don't carry it down by their hip. So it very well could be closer to his head than his waist. In fact, I'd say it's most likely he has the ball "chinned". If you've ever watched RBs do ball security drills, then you know what I'm talking about.
I sent him a clip I found off YouTube of the punches. Here was his response:
"so that is one of those you gotta know the difference between the "letter of the law" and the "spirit and intent of the law"...is it a foul to punch someone? Yes...was it in malice toward the player? No...not a foul...that's the kind of thinking that gets you on ESPN games...calling that a foul will likely get you fired from good high games..."
So take that however you want. He referees in a mid-major FBS conference in the southeast US. His interpretation of the play seems pretty similar with csabatka1's interpretation of how to judge the play.
Edit:
I also want to add to this that, from a basketball officiating standpoint, and I'm sure the same applies to football, part of our pre-game responsibility is to watch tape and be familiar with personnel. It helps us guide decisions and know who our "problem child(ren)" is/are. Those are the players who are going to mess up your game if you don't keep an eye on them. So, if a guy who has a reputation (think Suh in the NFL) for supposed cheap shots, we're going to know about it and be well aware of them throughout the game. If Suh is the guy throwing punches like that at the ball, his intent may be judged differently than a player you have never known to have a problem with personal fouls or cheap shots. You don't let anyone get away with anything, but in gray areas, you use player history to help determine intent when you have a make quick decisions. Fortunately, for basketball officials, replay allows us to slow the entire process down and fully evaluate potential flagrant foul situations. I'm not sure football always has that luxury. It might. I have no clue.
Last edited:
8 years officiating Nebraska high school. For the most part the coaches are really good. Some officials have more problems with coaches than other, usually dependent on how the game is going. There are a few that are completely unbearable no matter what.
Same with football, we know who the problem children are going into the game. If we don't know, they're easy to spot right away. If this play happens in a different time of the game and after a separate altercation or warning #56, it might have been flagged in the game.
A
anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi
Guest
I hope it's okay if I give my two cents here, obviously I don't do football but I think most of the same game management principles apply as they do to basketball.
When it comes to contact between opposing players during a dead ball, very little of it is tolerated. Regardless of the flop, CC shouldn't be trying to pull opposing players off of a pile or, in this case, his own ball carrier teammate. My personal officiating philosophy, and i know many that subscribe to this in the basketball world, is that if you don't clean up the little stuff like that when it happens, you're going to have to deal with the greater potential retaliatory issues down the road, and if that happens, you've got a mess on your hands and your coordinator of officials will probably be asking why you didn't use preventative officiating to keep it from escalating to that point. If something happened later in the game where CC and that guy were in close proximity, and the UM player takes a cheap shot at him, the coordinator is going to put the blame on your shoulders for not handling the issue before it resulted in retaliation. It may seem like pulling someone off of your teammate is an okay thing to do, but in general, allowing a player to do something like that will lead to bigger problems. No one wants to have an opponent lay hands on them and push them around. Now, something like that doesn't always need to draw a penalty. It can be a stern talking-to that might do the trick. I'm curious how football official's are coached to manage situations like that?
Personally, I don't. I don't like flags like this because it inserts yourself into the game. Something small like this, I talk to the player and tell the coach to let his players know we will break up piles and don't need their help. Goes under game management. You flag this, you open a whole can of worms throughout the game.
A
anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi
Guest
Thanks for your opinion, and not just covering for fellow refs. You will go far by being able to see things objectively like that. I can't stand the "always cover for each other" crap. When I went to umpire school they tried beating that into us. I knew then that I would never be able to enjoy it. Good on you.
