Reds/ Braves….

[king_kong_]

Last 3 years of OPS+

151, 142, 167 - ohtani
157, 114, 157 - acuna

Ohtani better.

What contributes more to overall defense, pitching 15% of a team's innings or playing CF for 100%?

We haven't even gotten into the fact that acuna has played 1 full season out of 5 non covid years.

The Braves won the World Series while Acuna, a player I love watching, recovered from a torn ACL

Think a team would be able to replace Ohtani so easily? No chance

Guy’s on pace for 50 homers and a sub-3.5 ERA with 200+ Ks this year. If anyone else could do that I’d like to see them try.

 

[cubsker]

The Braves won the World Series while Acuna, a player I love watching, recovered from a torn ACL

Think a team would be able to replace Ohtani so easily? No chance

Guy’s on pace for 50 homers and a sub-3.5 ERA with 200+ Ks this year. If anyone else could do that I’d like to see them try.

Acuna could, if he wanted to.....

 

[rgrachek]

A RF plays little to no defense on well over 85% of plays. Pitcher is by far the most important defensive position the field. That I'm even explaining this is embarrassing.

"That I'm evening explaining this is embarrassing".

Statements like that just portray you as an arrogant dick, or maybe a kid with a new computer.

You're just defaulting to the notion that because he pitches and hits at a high level, that he's the best player. You're slighting Acuna because he doesn't pitch, but not slighting Ohtani because he never plays in the field but rather DHs. You're not being intellectually honest or logical.

You also don't understand that the one thing that separates the players in the majors over the lower leagues is consistent great defense under the gun of the best hitters in the world. The pitchers in MLB are the best in the world, but it's the elite defense in the majors that keeps the average BA under .300. It's more evident in the stat cast era, but the number of hard hit balls that get sopped up by these elite defenders is like none other, and Acuna is the class of this level.

The majors is the only league where you consistently see play being made by outfielders at the fence, the league where middle infielders cover 40% more ground, the league where throws are 98% accurate rather than 90% accurate, where first basemen pick up 95% of the thrown balls that hit the ground.

Go ahead and take Ohtani and his long swing and above average pitching stats. I'll take Acuna and his short swing, his speed, his aggressiveness, his defense, his arm, and his baseball IQ, and I'll beat you.

 

[king_kong_]

"That I'm evening explaining this is embarrassing".

Statements like that just portray you as an arrogant dick, or maybe a kid with a new computer.

You're just defaulting to the notion that because he pitches and hits at a high level, that he's the best player. You're slighting Acuna because he doesn't pitch, but not slighting Ohtani because he never plays in the field but rather DHs. You're not being intellectually honest or logical.

You also don't understand that the one thing that separates the players in the majors over the lower leagues is consistent great defense under the gun of the best hitters in the world. The pitchers in MLB are the best in the world, but it's the elite defense in the majors that keeps the average BA under .300. It's more evident in the stat cast era, but the number of hard hit balls that get sopped up by these elite defenders is like none other, and Acuna is the class of this level.

The majors is the only league where you consistently see play being made by outfielders at the fence, the league where middle infielders cover 40% more ground, the league where throws are 98% accurate rather than 90% accurate, where first basemen pick up 95% of the thrown balls that hit the ground.

Go ahead and take Ohtani and his long swing and above average pitching stats. I'll take Acuna and his short swing, his speed, his aggressiveness, his defense, his arm, and his baseball IQ, and I'll beat you.

Ohtani is currently leading or tied for the lead in MLB in 5 offensive categories (HR, RBI, SLG, OPS, Total Bases) and is on pace for the greatest statistical season by a single player in the history of professional baseball

he ranks 2nd in the league in K/9, behind ATL's Spencer Strider

every 5th day Acuna is in the OF there's at least 10 out of 27 outs that don't even get put in play

this year, Acuna has played 76 games in the OF. he's averaged less than two put outs (catching a fly ball) per game (138 POs) and has thrown a runner out 7 times on the bases

he's also made 3 errors

145 outs accounted for is equal to about 8 starts for Ohtani, who, of course, has made 15 starts so far this year

Shohei is in the dead center of the action 100% of the time he's on the field. Acuna is not.

 

[rgrachek]

The Braves won the World Series while Acuna, a player I love watching, recovered from a torn ACL

Think a team would be able to replace Ohtani so easily? No chance

Guy’s on pace for 50 homers and a sub-3.5 ERA with 200+ Ks this year. If anyone else could do that I’d like to see them try.

The Braves also won the World Series with one of their top 2 pitchers breaking his leg in the 3rd inning of Game 1 and throwing bullpen games in Games 4 and 5, so they were able to overcome that pretty well.

Acuna's offensive numbers are better than Ohtani's. It's numbers and it's not a matter of debate. Ohtani has more HRs and is slightly ahead on some of the ratios that are based on HRs. Acuna has a higher BA, more hits, way more SB, and does all of this and 16 HRs from the lead off spot. The wild velocity of his hits cannot be ignored either.

So the debate on the other side is between an above average pitcher and the best defensive outfielder in the game. Knock yourself out, but the Braves have 10 pitchers in Ohtani's ERA range and 2 more on the IL that will be back in August who are better.

 

[king_kong_]

The Braves also won the World Series with one of their top 2 pitchers breaking his leg in the 3rd inning of Game 1 and throwing bullpen games in Games 4 and 5, so they were able to overcome that pretty well.

Acuna's offensive numbers are better than Ohtani's. It's numbers and it's not a matter of debate. Ohtani has more HRs and is slightly ahead on some of the ratios that are based on HRs. Acuna has a higher BA, more hits, way more SB, and does all of this and 16 HRs from the lead off spot. The wild velocity of his hits cannot be ignored either.

So the debate on the other side is between an above average pitcher and the best defensive outfielder in the game. Knock yourself out, but the Braves have 10 pitchers in Ohtani's ERA range and 2 more on the IL that will be back in August who are better.

you couldn't be more wrong, but, again, I appreciate your passion.

you're right about these things not being a debate. there are quantitative numbers that tell us who's the most valuable in every facet of the game. it's the beauty of baseball.

you are just choosing to ignore them

the most valuable offensive numbers are OPS, SLG and OPS+ - all categories Ohtani leads not just Acuna but all of MLB in

 

[rgrachek]

Ohtani is currently leading or tied for the lead in MLB in 5 offensive categories (HR, RBI, SLG, OPS, Total Bases) and is on pace for the greatest statistical season by a single player in the history of professional baseball

he ranks 2nd in the league in K/9, behind ATL's Spencer Strider

every 5th day Acuna is in the OF there's at least 10 out of 27 outs that don't even get put in play

this year, Acuna has played 76 games in the OF. he's averaged less than two put outs (catching a fly ball) per game (138 POs) and has thrown a runner out 7 times on the bases

he's also made 3 errors

145 outs accounted for is equal to about 8 starts for Ohtani, who, of course, has made 15 starts so far this year

Shohei is in the dead center of the action 100% of the time he's on the field. Acuna is not.

Acuna has made 3 errors, and saved 10 balls that wouldn't have been caught by any other player.

Ohtani has put a runner on base every 3 batters (as do most pitchers)

Othani is perhaps dead center when he's on the field. Problem is that he's only on the field for 6-7 innings every 5th day and 4-5 at bats every day.

 

[CameronKrazie86]

I'm a Braves fan but Ohtani is the best player in the league. Never seen a guy dominate as a hitter and a pitcher at the same time, it's unprecedented. Acuna is awesome but Ohtani is 1 of 1.

 

[king_kong_]

Acuna has made 3 errors, and saved 10 balls that wouldn't have been caught by any other player.

Ohtani has put a runner on base every 3 batters (as do most pitchers)

Othani is perhaps dead center when he's on the field. Problem is that he's only on the field for 6-7 innings every 5th day and 4-5 at bats every day.

Ohtani also leads the league in hits allowed/9 innings (an astonishing 5.7), and I must correct myself as he now leads the league in k/9 (11.8)

the fact you actually believe the Braves have 10 pitchers who are his equivalent is perhaps the dumbest part of this extremely flawed argument

and, again, we're talking about the most prolific slugger in the game when listing these off the charts pitching stats

 

[bigboxes]

Ohtani also leads the league in hits allowed/9 innings (an astonishing 5.7), and I must correct myself as he now leads the league in k/9 (11.8)

the fact you actually believe the Braves have 10 pitchers who are his equivalent is perhaps the dumbest part of this extremely flawed argument

and, again, we're talking about the most prolific slugger in the game when listing these off the charts pitching stats

Ohtani is amazing. I only wish he played for one of my teams. I only hope he doesn't go with the Yankees. I would hate to have root against him.

 

[cubsker]

I'm going to be insufferable when Pete Crow Armstrong is the best defensive OF in MLB once he gets called up. He might catch 3 balls per game, making him the equivalent of Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, and Rickey Henderson combined.

 

[cubsker]

Acuna has saved 10 balls that wouldn't have been caught by any other player.

I wanted to point out how stupid this comment was.

 

[jteten]

Revolver vs Sgt Peppers. Both studs. generational talents. Ohtani is Roy Hobbsesque. Acuna is 5 tools at the highest level.

 

[EastOregonHusker]

This would’ve been a compelling argument in the 90s, but it’s now 2023 and we have tools to actually measure impact

Fact is Shohei is worth more than a win more than Acuna, and that gap will continue to widen as the season marches on

It’s really not even close when comparing the two (or Shohei to anyone for that matter)

A great time to be a baseball fan

MLB WAR Leaderboards 2024 | FanGraphs Baseball

www.fangraphs.com

His WAR is higher because he is essentially two players…not a apples to apples comparison

 

[EastOregonHusker]

The Braves won the World Series while Acuna, a player I love watching, recovered from a torn ACL

Think a team would be able to replace Ohtani so easily? No chance

Guy’s on pace for 50 homers and a sub-3.5 ERA with 200+ Ks this year. If anyone else could do that I’d like to see them try.

If they had an actual good team around him then yes. That team caught lightning in a bottle. They had 3-4 guys just play beyond their expectations down the stretch. They had 2 MVP candidates not named Acuna. Riley was having an amazing rookie season as well.

 

[spartanhusker]

I love both players but I guess my definition would be… if you are starting a team, which one do you choose?

Easy answer

 

[rgrachek]

Ls

you couldn't be more wrong, but, again, I appreciate your passion.

you're right about these things not being a debate. there are quantitative numbers that tell us who's the most valuable in every facet of the game. it's the beauty of baseball.

you are just choosing to ignore them

the most valuable offensive numbers are OPS, SLG and OPS+ - all categories Ohtani leads not just Acuna but all of MLB

I wanted to point out how stupid this comment was.

I wanted to point out what a dick you are for saying this.

I have seen all but a couple of the Braves games, you have likely seen none, so you have no basis to question what I and most Braves fans have seen this year.

But on top of that, you're just a freaking bob thrower who can't justify your points. What is the basis of you saying that my comment is stupid? I've seen the plays, plays where balls go over the head or fall short of almost any other outfielder in the league. You obviously haven't or you don't have the knowledge or acumen to know the difference.

So cheer on bonehead and wallow in your ignorance.

 

[rgrachek]

Ohtani also leads the league in hits allowed/9 innings (an astonishing 5.7), and I must correct myself as he now leads the league in k/9 (11.8)

the fact you actually believe the Braves have 10 pitchers who are his equivalent is perhaps the dumbest part of this extremely flawed argument

and, again, we're talking about the most prolific slugger in the game when listing these off the charts pitching stats

Look at the compared ERA dude. There's a reason why the the braves are 24 games over .500.

You know what you guys are like, all of those lame Scouts in the movie Moneyball who sat around a table talking about how pretty guys swings are and how big they are. You never seriously look at the analytics and you don't really understand value regarding players. You also don't understand that numbers like hits allowed per 9 innings and strikeouts per 9 innings are meaningless stats, just like wins and losses are. The only meaningful stat for a pitcher is ERA, the number of runs a pitcher gives up on his own, and sometimes that's dubious if the scoring is flawed (i.e. giving players hits when they should be errors). A pitcher can strike out 16 in a game and hold the team to 5 hits, but if 4 of the 5 hits are HRs and he walks 4, he can give up 7-8 runs, which is not good. Some of the best pitchers in MLB history were players who scattered a lot of hits, with average strikeout numbers, but gave up few runs. Honestly, pitching in MLB is a lot to do with not giving up HRs.

Spencer Strider of the Braves leads MLB in strikeouts by a large margin (14.3 per 9 innings), but is 33rd in ERA because of the long ball. Brice Elder of the Braves only strikes out 7.5 per 9 innings, but is 3rd in MLB in ERA. Who's the better pitcher, based on what makes you win, Elder by about 1.4 runs per game.

Ohtani has a good ERA, but there are 40 starting pitchers in MLB with an ERA under 4 with the requisite innings. There are many more relievers in that category too. It's about winning baseball games, not generating meaningless ratios. On the other hand, Ohtani is the only player in MLB with offensive ability close to Acuna. Neither can be replaced offensively.

 

[king_kong_]

Look at the compared ERA dude. There's a reason why the the braves are 24 games over .500.

You know what you guys are like, all of those lame Scouts in the movie Moneyball who sat around a table talking about how pretty guys swings are and how big they are. You never seriously look at the analytics and you don't really understand value regarding players. You also don't understand that numbers like hits allowed per 9 innings and strikeouts per 9 innings are meaningless stats, just like wins and losses are. The only meaningful stat for a pitcher is ERA, the number of runs a pitcher gives up on his own, and sometimes that's dubious if the scoring is flawed (i.e. giving players hits when they should be errors). A pitcher can strike out 16 in a game and hold the team to 5 hits, but if 4 of the 5 hits are HRs and he walks 4, he can give up 7-8 runs, which is not good. Some of the best pitchers in MLB history were players who scattered a lot of hits, with average strikeout numbers, but gave up few runs. Honestly, pitching in MLB is a lot to do with not giving up HRs.

Spencer Strider of the Braves leads MLB in strikeouts by a large margin (14.3 per 9 innings), but is 33rd in ERA because of the long ball. Brice Elder of the Braves only strikes out 7.5 per 9 innings, but is 3rd in MLB in ERA. Who's the better pitcher, based on what makes you win, Elder by about 1.4 runs per game.

Ohtani has a good ERA, but there are 40 starting pitchers in MLB with an ERA under 4 with the requisite innings. There are many more relievers in that category too. It's about winning baseball games, not generating meaningless ratios. On the other hand, Ohtani is the only player in MLB with offensive ability close to Acuna. Neither can be replaced offensively.

only cavemen look to ERA to prove a pitcher's value.

it's 2023. ERA is not an 'analytic', it's a vestige of the past. literally zero baseball people regard it as anything meaningful today. literally zero.

what next? pitcher wins? LMAO

 

[spartanhusker]

Look at the compared ERA dude. There's a reason why the the braves are 24 games over .500.

You know what you guys are like, all of those lame Scouts in the movie Moneyball who sat around a table talking about how pretty guys swings are and how big they are. You never seriously look at the analytics and you don't really understand value regarding players. You also don't understand that numbers like hits allowed per 9 innings and strikeouts per 9 innings are meaningless stats, just like wins and losses are. The only meaningful stat for a pitcher is ERA, the number of runs a pitcher gives up on his own, and sometimes that's dubious if the scoring is flawed (i.e. giving players hits when they should be errors). A pitcher can strike out 16 in a game and hold the team to 5 hits, but if 4 of the 5 hits are HRs and he walks 4, he can give up 7-8 runs, which is not good. Some of the best pitchers in MLB history were players who scattered a lot of hits, with average strikeout numbers, but gave up few runs. Honestly, pitching in MLB is a lot to do with not giving up HRs.

Spencer Strider of the Braves leads MLB in strikeouts by a large margin (14.3 per 9 innings), but is 33rd in ERA because of the long ball. Brice Elder of the Braves only strikes out 7.5 per 9 innings, but is 3rd in MLB in ERA. Who's the better pitcher, based on what makes you win, Elder by about 1.4 runs per game.

Ohtani has a good ERA, but there are 40 starting pitchers in MLB with an ERA under 4 with the requisite innings. There are many more relievers in that category too. It's about winning baseball games, not generating meaningless ratios. On the other hand, Ohtani is the only player in MLB with offensive ability close to Acuna. Neither can be replaced offensively.

But you are missing one huge fact….
He plays TWO / THREE positions to everyone else’s one…
No one hates Acuna… most love him… but two positions to dramatically change the game? Generational

 

[cubsker]

Ls



I wanted to point out what a dick you are for saying this.

I have seen all but a couple of the Braves games, you have likely seen none, so you have no basis to question what I and most Braves fans have seen this year.

But on top of that, you're just a freaking bob thrower who can't justify your points. What is the basis of you saying that my comment is stupid? I've seen the plays, plays where balls go over the head or fall short of almost any other outfielder in the league. You obviously haven't or you don't have the knowledge or acumen to know the difference.

So cheer on bonehead and wallow in your ignorance.

His range is below average (negative Range, negative UZR, negative Statcast numbers), so to argue that he's making plays no one else can is just silly.

 

[king_kong_]

But you are missing one huge fact….
He plays TWO / THREE positions to everyone else’s one…
No one hates Acuna… most love him… but two positions to dramatically change the game? Generational

I love Acuna

he's single handedly carrying my roto team this year!

 

[cubsker]

Acuna could have done this, but catching fly balls is more important

 

[bigboxes]

Acuna could have done this, but catching fly balls is more important

View embedded media

Nah. I've watched a lot of my favorite team and we've got an outfielder who's even better. Ohtani is an okay pitcher but his batting is a gimmick. Now, if he could catch fly balls like my boy... /s

 

[rgrachek]

His range is below average (negative Range, negative UZR, negative Statcast numbers), so to argue that he's making plays no one else can is just silly.

His range is below average (negative Range, negative UZR, negative Statcast numbers), so to argue that he's making plays no one else can is just silly.

Maybe you should watch him play. Maybe last night's game against the Twins for a start, where he did it again. If statcast says he has negative range, that's an issue with statcast. The fastest guy in the league who also plays fast in every aspect of the game can't have negative range! Again, maybe you should just watch him play.

 

[rgrachek]

But you are missing one huge fact….
He plays TWO / THREE positions to everyone else’s one…
No one hates Acuna… most love him… but two positions to dramatically change the game? Generational

He hits and plays a defensive position (pitcher). That's 2 positions. Every player who is not just a pitcher or a DH plays 2 positions.

 

[rgrachek]

only cavemen look to ERA to prove a pitcher's value.

it's 2023. ERA is not an 'analytic', it's a vestige of the past. literally zero baseball people regard it as anything meaningful today. literally zero.

what next? pitcher wins? LMAO

Now you've exposed yourself. You call the gold standard of pitching something that a cave man uses. WOW! A vestige of the past???!!! Really??? The only stat that matters for pitchers (how many runs you give up) is not used by "Baseball People"? Are these the "Baseball People" who sat around the conference table in MONEYBALL and opined on a guy who hits .220 on how pretty his swing is?

Maybe we should abandon the number of runs a team scores, as a vestige of the past!!! So in you're world, if you strike out 16 in 9 innings, but give up 10 runs, then you're still the best pitcher?

By the way, I already said that wins and losses is worthless. Please read more and write less. Jesus, I guess there's a reason why some people win and others lose.

 

[king_kong_]

Now you've exposed yourself. You call the gold standard of pitching something that a cave man uses. WOW! A vestige of the past???!!! Really??? The only stat that matters for pitchers (how many runs you give up) is not used by "Baseball People"? Are these the "Baseball People" who sat around the conference table in MONEYBALL and opined on a guy who hits .220 on how pretty his swing is?

Maybe we should abandon the number of runs a team scores, as a vestige of the past!!! So in you're world, if you strike out 16 in 9 innings, but give up 10 runs, then you're still the best pitcher?

By the way, I already said that wins and losses is worthless. Please read more and write less. Jesus, I guess there's a reason why some people win and others lose.

ERA is gigantically influenced by things that have nothing to do with a pitcher's skills

inherited runners, defense, official scorekeeping, park factors, etc.

using ERA to compare pitchers is a 1980s exercise.

FIP, xFIP and SIERA are INFINITELY more useful.

literally zero evaluators today look to ERA as anything meaningfully telling of a pitcher's skills or projecting success. literally zero.

get a clue

 

[spartanhusker]

Acuna could have done this, but catching fly balls is more important

View embedded media

I see what you did there!!!😂

 

[rgrachek]

ERA is gigantically influenced by things that have nothing to do with a pitcher's skills

inherited runners, defense, official scorekeeping, park factors, etc.

using ERA to compare pitchers is a 1980s exercise.

FIP, xFIP and SIERA are INFINITELY more useful.

literally zero evaluators today look to ERA as anything meaningfully telling of a pitcher's skills or projecting success. literally zero.

get a clue

1. You don't get charged for inherited runners on your ERA. You only get charged for base runners who score that you put on base by hit or free pass.

2. The overall defense of each team is so close in the majors, that this isn't a big factor when differentiating between pitchers. You're only talking about teams that make more web gems, which is only a small difference. If your team makes more errors, you don't get charged for those runs and if someone makes an error preventing a 3rd out, you don't get charged for any of the subsequent runs that inning no matter what.

3. Official scorekeepers are equal opportunity offenders, giving hits where it should have been scored an error. They don't favor any one pitcher. You don't seem understand that it's not the ERA number alone, but how it relates to everyone else's ERA. In this light, the scorekeeper decisions are irrelevant.

4. If you look at the MLB Park Factors, Coors Field is the only true outlier at 1.17 of average. Most of the parks are .95 to 1.05 or closer. When you factor in the fact that everyone plays 1/2 of their games away, the effect to ERA is no more than -2% to +3% either way. This means that an average ERA of 3.0 can range from 2.94 to 3.09. A statistical non-factor.

The coaches I know use ERA and it's the #1 reported stat for pitchers at all levels of baseball.
SIERA is an ERA indicator, just adjustments to ERA. FIP ignores balls hit into the field of play and only focuses on times when the hitter doesn't hit the ball, which is stupid and crap. It ignores the reality that good pitchers can force batters to not hit the ball so hard, others cannot.

Also, the use of FIP and SIERA is not as widespread as you say and is terribly flawed.

In any event, we're talking about runs allowed by a pitcher, and not strikeouts per game like was mentioned earlier as a great metric for a pitcher. Kind of sad that you don't get that.

 

[king_kong_]

1. You don't get charged for inherited runners on your ERA. You only get charged for base runners who score that you put on base by hit or free pass.

2. The overall defense of each team is so close in the majors, that this isn't a big factor when differentiating between pitchers. You're only talking about teams that make more web gems, which is only a small difference. If your team makes more errors, you don't get charged for those runs and if someone makes an error preventing a 3rd out, you don't get charged for any of the subsequent runs that inning no matter what.

3. Official scorekeepers are equal opportunity offenders, giving hits where it should have been scored an error. They don't favor any one pitcher. You don't seem understand that it's not the ERA number alone, but how it relates to everyone else's ERA. In this light, the scorekeeper decisions are irrelevant.

4. If you look at the MLB Park Factors, Coors Field is the only true outlier at 1.17 of average. Most of the parks are .95 to 1.05 or closer. When you factor in the fact that everyone plays 1/2 of their games away, the effect to ERA is no more than -2% to +3% either way. This means that an average ERA of 3.0 can range from 2.94 to 3.09. A statistical non-factor.

The coaches I know use ERA and it's the #1 reported stat for pitchers at all levels of baseball.
SIERA is an ERA indicator, just adjustments to ERA. FIP ignores balls hit into the field of play and only focuses on times when the hitter doesn't hit the ball, which is stupid and crap. It ignores the reality that good pitchers can force batters to not hit the ball so hard, others cannot.

Also, the use of FIP and SIERA is not as widespread as you say and is terribly flawed.

In any event, we're talking about runs allowed by a pitcher, and not strikeouts per game like was mentioned earlier as a great metric for a pitcher. Kind of sad that you don't get that.

1. You get charged for left baserunners relievers allow to score

2. “Close enough” is not good enough

3. LOL! Any hit/error objectivity doesn’t belong in precise eval nor does it have anything to do with a pitchers skills

4. 2-3% is a non factor? Yea this tracks with your posting history

Wake up, caveman. You are passionately submitting a decades-old argument that would’ve gotten you laughed out of the room in 2015 much less today.

I’m done with this lesson. You have no desire to do anything but dig into your laughably incorrect position

 

[rgrachek]

1. You get charged for left baserunners relievers allow to score

2. “Close enough” is not good enough

3. LOL! Any hit/error objectivity doesn’t belong in precise eval nor does it have anything to do with a pitchers skills

4. 2-3% is a non factor? Yea this tracks with your posting history

Wake up, caveman. You are passionately submitting a decades-old argument that would’ve gotten you laughed out of the room in 2015 much less today.

I’m done with this lesson. You have no desire to do anything but dig into your laughably incorrect position

Of course you get charged for base runners you leave. You put them on base and if they score, they're yours. Jesus, are you suggesting that if a relief pitcher inherits bases loaded and no outs, then forces a double play and a fly out, that the run that scored on the double play should be his? Really?

You also ignored that SEERA is just enhanced ERA and FIP is stupid crap. The uncertainty of FIP is off the charts yet you think 2-3% is material. That's just a fundamental non-understanding of statistics.

You bash ERA, but embrace FIP, which essentially determines that you're only a good pitcher if you're a strikeout pitcher. FIP says that a pitcher that strikes out 10 and gives up 15 hits and 8 runs is better than a pitcher that strikes out 2 but gives up 5 hits a 1 run. That's just stupid.

You don't know what you're talking about. Enough, you're just a guy who makes stupid arguments and uses insults to somehow try to improve your credibility. You're really being an ass hole.

 

[king_kong_]

Of course you get charged for base runners you leave. You put them on base and if they score, they're yours. Jesus, are you suggesting that if a relief pitcher inherits bases loaded and no outs, then forces a double play and a fly out, that the run that scored on the double play should be his? Really?

You also ignored that SEERA is just enhanced ERA and FIP is stupid crap. The uncertainty of FIP is off the charts yet you think 2-3% is material. That's just a fundamental non-understanding of statistics.

You bash ERA, but embrace FIP, which essentially determines that you're only a good pitcher if you're a strikeout pitcher. FIP says that a pitcher that strikes out 10 and gives up 15 hits and 8 runs is better than a pitcher that strikes out 2 but gives up 5 hits a 1 run. That's just stupid.

You don't know what you're talking about. Enough, you're just a guy who makes stupid arguments and uses insults to somehow try to improve your credibility. You're really being an ass hole.

SIERA, FIP and xFIP all take away the things from ERA that have nothing to do with a pitcher's talent in order to more accurately evaluate them. the above post proves you not only don't understand how they are calculated, but also how they're interpreted.

you're ignoring simple, basic analytics in favor of a 1980s simpleton's argument that literally zero people agree with

if you speak to an MLB scout and bring up ERA as a primary means of pitcher evaluation, he will laugh at you. the end.

if you want to talk more, tell it to the middle school rec league coaches you seem to hold in such high regard.

you're welcome for the free lesson. next time I'll invoice you.

 

[rgrachek]

SIERA, FIP and xFIP all take away the things from ERA that have nothing to do with a pitcher's talent in order to more accurately evaluate them. the above post proves you not only don't understand how they are calculated, but also how they're interpreted.

you're ignoring simple, basic analytics in favor of a 1980s simpleton's argument that literally zero people agree with

if you speak to an MLB scout and bring up ERA as a primary means of pitcher evaluation, he will laugh at you. the end.

if you want to talk more, tell it to the middle school rec league coaches you seem to hold in such high regard.

you're welcome for the free lesson. next time I'll invoice you.

You said you were done, but you keep coming back for more. Give me some names of the MLB scouts you have talked to and what they said, because the former Braves pitching coach I know told me not long ago that the new analytics for pitching are mainly crap for the reasons I have given. The hitting analytics are OK, but not considering balls hit in fair territory is crazy.

Also, you're a real dick for the personal attacks.

 

[king_kong_]

You said you were done, but you keep coming back for more. Give me some names of the MLB scouts you have talked to and what they said, because the former Braves pitching coach I know told me not long ago that the new analytics for pitching are mainly crap for the reasons I have given. The hitting analytics are OK, but not considering balls hit in fair territory is crazy.

Also, you're a real dick for the personal attacks.

the guy who took his job & is wearing his World Series ring disagrees

 

[rgrachek]

the guy who took his job & is wearing his World Series ring disagrees

My friend retired and has a WS ring too. He didn't have his job taken.

 

[schuele]

My friend retired and has a WS ring too. He didn't have his job taken.

Rockin' Leo?

 

[cubsker]

I have to bump this thread after ohtani throws a complete game shutout in game 1 of a doubleheader and then hits two dingers in game two. The man is on his own level far above anyone else.

 

[bigboxes]

I have to bump this thread after ohtani throws a complete game shutout in game 1 of a doubleheader and then hits two dingers in game two. The man is on his own level far above anyone else.

Amazing. I think his "potential" salary would kill most franchises.

 

[cubsker]

Amazing. I think his "potential" salary would kill most franchises.

Yanks
Dodgers
Mets
Angels
Giants
Cubs (longshot, not sure they would pay or if Ohtani would move off the coasts. They do have another Japanese player for the foreseeable future though.)

Can't see anyone else really. Don't think he's going to Texas or Philly even if those teams would pay and I'm not really sure the Mariners would pony up that kind of money.