OT - Post footing, mix or no mix?

[TheBeav815]

Replacing some fence posts that rotted through. I have the post holes all dug 24" deep. I'm seeing that allegedly you can just dump the concrete mix in the hole and pour water over it, no mixing. I've always mixed...I don't trust it.

Anyone confirm or deny whether that works? I don't have a wheelbarrow (or anywhere to keep one) so I have to mix in a bucket if I'm gonna mix. Wouldn't break my heart not to mix...

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

Replacing some fence posts that rotted through. I have the post holes all dug 24" deep. I'm seeing that allegedly you can just dump the concrete mix in the hole and pour water over it, no mixing. I've always mixed...I don't trust it.

Anyone confirm or deny whether that works? I don't have a wheelbarrow (or anywhere to keep one) so I have to mix in a bucket if I'm gonna mix. Wouldn't break my heart not to mix...

Just dump the dry in there and let mother nature do the rest. Water in the ground will be fine. That's what a "pro" fence guy told me. I would go at least 3' deep with the holes, and consider dipping or wrapping the post bases.

 

[tpmcg]

if wood post just tamp the soil. wind will snap regardless.

 

[WHCSC]

Foam

 

[schuele]

I think certain blends are okay to pour into the hole dry and add water. I've used these a couple of times and not had any problems. I didn't fill the hole all the way before adding water, though. I did about 1/3 at a time to make sure water was getting to all of the concrete mix and that I didn't have any air pockets.

This was for a pretty light-duty fence, however. If you're building an 8-foot privacy wall or something like that, it might not suffice.

 

[kerpal_68]

We never premix concrete for posts.

 

[Snickerdoodle70]

Replacing some fence posts that rotted through. I have the post holes all dug 24" deep. I'm seeing that allegedly you can just dump the concrete mix in the hole and pour water over it, no mixing. I've always mixed...I don't trust it.

Anyone confirm or deny whether that works? I don't have a wheelbarrow (or anywhere to keep one) so I have to mix in a bucket if I'm gonna mix. Wouldn't break my heart not to mix...

I can only assume you're using treated lumber for the posts? Hopefully not cedar, as those will rot as well.

Using metal posts attached to lumber (to hide said metal posts) is the way to go.

 

[TheBeav815]

I can only assume you're using treated lumber for the posts? Hopefully not cedar, as those will rot as well.

Using metal posts attached to lumber (to hide said metal posts) is the way to go.

What kind of metal posts? Not the kind for chain link?

It's about an 8 foot long span of 4 foot high fence. I haven't set any of them yet, but I picked up 6 foot long, 4" x 4" pressure-treated posts.

What I want are these but they're waaaay more expensive. https://www.plasteak.com/plasteak-recycled-plastic-products/recycled-plastic-lumber/molded-lumber

 

[TheBeav815]

Just dump the dry in there and let mother nature do the rest. Water in the ground will be fine. That's what a "pro" fence guy told me. I would go at least 3' deep with the holes, and consider dipping or wrapping the post bases.

Thought about wrapping them, but I saw somewhere that can do a better job of trapping moisture in than it does of keeping it out. Paint them with water seal?

 

[HuskerOH]

I am a landscape contractor, I usually put about 60 lbs of "gravel mix" per hole and add water about 2-3 times and back fill the next day. Never had any problems, doing it for 30 yrs

 

[mgbreis]

I've built two fences with 6' treated 4x4's, on both I set the posts in crushed gravel that I packed with a heavy 2x4. The gravel sets really tight, almost like concrete, but it drains much better. If you dig your holes deep enough to put 6" of gravel in the bottom it really helps keep the water away from the posts. I would NEVER set treated lumber in concrete (maybe if hanging a heavy gate on it), in a matter of a few years they'll all be rotten. My fences are 14 and 7 years old and there is zero rot. The gravel also allows some give in the wind, if a post moves you can always straighten it and repack the gravel, but I've never had to do that.

 

[DerHusker]

This is what we used on a 73' long, 6' tall privacy fence.

 

[Snickerdoodle70]

What kind of metal posts? Not the kind for chain link?

It's about an 8 foot long span of 4 foot high fence. I haven't set any of them yet, but I picked up 6 foot long, 4" x 4" pressure-treated posts.

What I want are these but they're waaaay more expensive. https://www.plasteak.com/plasteak-recycled-plastic-products/recycled-plastic-lumber/molded-lumber

I have something similar to this:

But the installer also spaced them with gaps, and was able to attach a vertical on either side of the metal post, so you can't see it unless you crawl around on your hands and knees - which I did.

I am certainly not a carpenter or fence builder, but in my industry/climate, it is recommended metal posts be used. Any place where the frost/freeze layer will not allow the moisture to wick away, the water will just sit on any exposed wood surface.

Not to say lumber posts will not work just fine, but they WILL have to be replaced again should the fence remain. But how long are we going to live anyhow ?

 

[TheBeav815]

Foam

Looks cool, considering it. Would give me a water barrier.

 

[TheBeav815]

I have something similar to this:

But the installer also spaced them with gaps, and was able to attach a vertical on either side of the metal post, so you can't see it unless you crawl around on your hands and knees - which I did.

I am certainly not a carpenter or fence builder, but in my industry/climate, it is recommended metal posts be used. Any place where the frost/freeze layer will not allow the moisture to wick away, the water will just sit on any exposed wood surface.

Not to say lumber posts will not work just fine, but they WILL have to be replaced again should the fence remain. But how long are we going to live anyhow ?

2 questions on that:

Where do I get the metal posts?

How do you hang the gate on it?

 

[Snickerdoodle70]

2 questions on that:

Where do I get the metal posts?

How do you hang the gate on it?

Sheesh, I assume they're basically reinforced metal t-posts, which would likely be available at home depot, menard's (if you have one), or even lowe's. A lumber company would likely have even more information.

That said, most contractors in bigger cities get their supplies from those stores. There isn't a secret network of underground suppliers not available to us lowly homeowners. Ultimately, it all comes down to craft.

My recommendation would be to do your research, establish your goals (aesthetics, function, etc.), and go talk to someone in the contracting department at any of said stores. They're always willing to help and provide advice. I'm only trying to prevent you from busting your ass with hard work, only to find out after that you should've done x or y.

I've done that many times, and will undoubtedly continue to do so.

 

[TheBeav815]

Sheesh, I assume they're basically reinforced metal t-posts, which would likely be available at home depot, menard's (if you have one), or even lowe's. A lumber company would likely have even more information.

That said, most contractors in bigger cities get their supplies from those stores. There isn't a secret network of underground suppliers not available to us lowly homeowners. Ultimately, it all comes down to craft.

My recommendation would be to do your research, establish your goals (aesthetics, function, etc.), and go talk to someone in the contracting department at any of said stores. They're always willing to help and provide advice. I'm only trying to prevent you from busting your ass with hard work, only to find out after that you should've done x or y.

I've done that many times, and will undoubtedly continue to do so.

But if I don't do anything stupid mid-project that sends me back to square one, how will I build all that character I'm supposed to have?

Looks like it's a U-post. My problem is being able to visualize how something should look before I'm in the middle of it. I'm not super strong with spatial relation and being able to look at it and go, "OK so the gate should hang like this, and we'll space boards out like that, etc.

Then there's the quality of my workmanship. I'm on that level of "it's been a good day if I can make a cut in a straight line." Other than that I've got a bright future in construction and contracting.

 

[Snickerdoodle70]

But if I don't do anything stupid mid-project that sends me back to square one, how will I build all that character I'm supposed to have?

Looks like it's a U-post. My problem is being able to visualize how something should look before I'm in the middle of it. I'm not super strong with spatial relation and being able to look at it and go, "OK so the gate should hang like this, and we'll space boards out like that, etc.

Then there's the quality of my workmanship. I'm on that level of "it's been a good day if I can make a cut in a straight line." Other than that I've got a bright future in construction and contracting.

I used to love to just dive in and see where it takes me. Then I had to redo/repair a few things, and try to be more measured in my approach and method(s).

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

Thought about wrapping them, but I saw somewhere that can do a better job of trapping moisture in than it does of keeping it out. Paint them with water seal?

Creosote or tar

 

[taeckles]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-H...-x-7-1-2-ft-Metal-Fence-Post-633663/202091158

 

[TheBeav815]

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Master-H...-x-7-1-2-ft-Metal-Fence-Post-633663/202091158

For the life of me I can't find an example of how somebody has attached the gate to one of these things.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

I never dig a post hole less than three feet deep. Also I never use concrete. Just tamp the dirt. I never have issues with rot

 

[DerHusker]

For the life of me I can't find an example of how somebody has attached the gate to one of these things.

I don't think they're indented to be used for a gate jamb. I'd use either a round fence posts as you jambs. Something like this:

Or use treated 4 x 4 for your jambs and build your fence off of that. Something like this:

or this:

 

[TheBeav815]

I don't thing they're indented to be used for a gate jamb. I'd use either a round fence posts as you jambs. Something like this:

Or use treated 4 x 4 for your jambs and build your fence off of that. Something like this:

or this:

Yeah, would require a total rebuild of the gate. I have the gate itself still intact with all the hardware.

 

[TheBeav815]

I never dig a post hole less than three feet deep. Also I never use concrete. Just tamp the dirt. I never have issues with rot

Not a chance. Soil is much too wet with much too high a water table where I am. Packed dirt might hold pretty tight but mud sure won't. There's a french drain just a few feet away from where the fence sits, it stays pretty soggy and muddy over there.

The old ones they did concrete footing 2 or 3 feet deep and then for some reason they filled gravel and dirt on top of that. Post rotted and snapped off where that soil and gravel contacted the lumber.

Moisture contact + lumber = rot

 

[TwinsRRUs]

Sheesh, I assume they're basically reinforced metal t-posts, which would likely be available at home depot, menard's (if you have one), or even lowe's.

I worked at Menards as the Hardware Manager for 10 years and never saw those U Posts before.

I would guess Home Depot or Lowes. Nice looking product.

 

[TwinsRRUs]

My brother put up a fence in Gibbon and his father-in-law dumped 'just add water' instant cement in the hole and did not add water.

I put up a 4' tall fence in my front yard last spring with 6' long treated 4x4's. I put a few inches of gravel in the bottom before putting the post in the hole.

Then I just added dirt and packed in the dirt with a shovel handle, add more dirt, packed it in... did that multiple times.

If I added too much gravel and messed the height up by an inch too tall, I just cut off the top of the post so they were all the same height.

Treated screws for treated lumber.

Edit: I didn't have a gate. For a gate, I would recommend an 8' post and put it in the ground 3' and cut it off at the height needed. Make sure your posts are plumb (vertically level)!

 

[TwinsRRUs]

When I lived in North Platte, I had to replace some 4x4 wooden posts that snapped off at ground level.

They had poured a 6" wide 1' tall wall of cement underground under the whole fence.

Took me awhile to drill out all of the wood stuck down in the cement to put a new post in. Do not do what the guy did at my old house!

Water setting around the top of the ground will rot out a post. When I put my posts in my front yard last year, I packed and piled the dirt up a little higher that the grass around it so the water would run away from the posts.

Edit: Just a quick thought. Not sure if it would work or not, but if you do the cement, you could make it a little higher than the ground around it and angle the top of it so water goes away from the post.

Edit #2: You could always caulk every year around the base of the post in cement so water cannot get down in between the cement and post, similar to how people with a sidewalk around their house need to caulk the gap between the sidewalk and house.

 

[TheBeav815]

When I lived in North Platte, I had to replace some 4x4 wooden posts that snapped off at ground level.

They had poured a 6" wide 1' tall wall of cement underground under the whole fence.

Took me awhile to drill out all of the wood stuck down in the cement to put a new post in. Do not do what the guy did at my old house!

Water setting around the top of the ground will rot out a post. When I put my posts in my front yard last year, I packed and piled the dirt up a little higher that the grass around it so the water would run away from the posts.

I started digging out the old post holes and when I saw how much concrete I'd have to chisel out, I decided it'd be a lot easier just to move the fence forward!

 

[Pennsyhusker]

Not a chance. Soil is much too wet with much too high a water table where I am. Packed dirt might hold pretty tight but mud sure won't. There's a french drain just a few feet away from where the fence sits, it stays pretty soggy and muddy over there.

The old ones they did concrete footing 2 or 3 feet deep and then for some reason they filled gravel and dirt on top of that. Post rotted and snapped off where that soil and gravel contacted the lumber.

Moisture contact + lumber = rot

Ok. Yeah. With that high of a water table you need to do it your way. I have one corner of my sheep pasture that is a freaking swamp 6 months out of the year. I used 6 foot metal t posts there instead of wood.

 

[TwinsRRUs]

Not a chance. Soil is much too wet with much too high a water table where I am. Packed dirt might hold pretty tight but mud sure won't. There's a french drain just a few feet away from where the fence sits, it stays pretty soggy and muddy over there.

The old ones they did concrete footing 2 or 3 feet deep and then for some reason they filled gravel and dirt on top of that. Post rotted and snapped off where that soil and gravel contacted the lumber.

Moisture contact + lumber = rot

I missed this post.

If you have a ton of rain down there where you live, metal would probably be better.

Treated posts are "supposed" to last 30 to 40 years, but I don't know how true that would be when sitting in water all the time.

They do make 'ground contact' treated posts that are supposedly better with that, but I kind of like the metal idea if the wet ground is that big of an issue there.

 

[TheBeav815]

I missed this post.

If you have a ton of rain down there where you live, metal would probably be better.

Treated posts are "supposed" to last 30 to 40 years, but I don't know how true that would be when sitting in water all the time.

They do make 'ground contact' treated posts that are supposedly better with that, but I kind of like the metal idea if the wet ground is that big of an issue there.

That's why the foam footings intrigue me. That would create a moisture barrier in addition to securing the post. I'm also in the middle of a run of shitty weather and the foam will expand and set properly even when it's cold. Concrete is better than soil, but it can and will wick up moisture.

Water management is my ongoing project with the place. Northeastern Illinois is basically marshland. It takes about 2-3 weeks with no rain before my sump stops running and the previous owner and the architect made a few dumb choices when they did the gutters and downspouts.

Bought it 3 years ago, last summer I dug up the front by the porch to fix the grade and pour a footing under the porch. Had water running back toward the house and under the porch, from there it would find the basement. Did all that, altered the grade, moved the downspout clear across the front and dug a trench to channel the water away to where it should go.

 

[TwinsRRUs]

We had water leaking into our basement in North Platte until I built up a flower garden along the back of the house where the water got in.

I put in some dirt and angled it away from the house, then put a few layers of thick plastic on it before filling the rest of the dirt on top of the plastic so any water had to enter the ground 3' away from the house.

No more water in the basement!

Poor landscaping causes so many water issues in basements.

My brother's house in Gibbon had the slope of the lawn going down toward the house. Any decent rains flooded his whole basement.

Didn't take him long to take action and do some dirt work all around the house since it ruined so much carpet in his basement.

One of my old coworkers' husband poured a sloped sidewalk around the whole house of every house they ever lived in because he never wanted to deal with water in his basement.

 

[Snickerdoodle70]

I started digging out the old post holes and when I saw how much concrete I'd have to chisel out, I decided it'd be a lot easier just to move the fence forward!

Use a spade shovel and you can pry the old concrete footings out. Then, you already will have most of your hole dug and ready to go.

 

[Snickerdoodle70]

We had water leaking into our basement in North Platte until I built up a flower garden along the back of the house where the water got in.

I put in some dirt and angled it away from the house, then put a few layers of thick plastic on it before filling the rest of the dirt on top of the plastic so any water had to enter the ground 3' away from the house.

No more water in the basement!

Poor landscaping causes so many water issues in basements.

My brother's house in Gibbon had the slope of the lawn going down toward the house. Any decent rains flooded his whole basement.

Didn't take him long to take action and do some dirt work all around the house since it ruined so much carpet in his basement.

One of my old coworkers' husband poured a sloped sidewalk around the whole house of every house they ever lived in because he never wanted to deal with water in his basement.

You'd be surprised how many developers/contractors do not pay attention to proper grading. At a minimum, you need a 1.5-2% slope away from your house, to a distance of at least 10'. Anything beyond that 10' perimeter will infiltrate away from any structure. Rain gardens always help, too, as you mentioned.

Any stormwater issue is always a top-down; outside-in approach. If your gutters are clogged, downspout not functioning, and most importantly, grades around the house not adequate - yes, you will end up with water in your basement.

If anyone has a flooding problem, adding a length of corrugated extention to the downspout will fix it, temporarily. However, I used to work in an industry in which we often connected peoples' downspouts to pvc pipe and drains, ensuring the end drain was 2% away from its origin.

This always solved the wet basement or standing water issues.

 

[Baxter48]

Replacing some fence posts that rotted through. I have the post holes all dug 24" deep. I'm seeing that allegedly you can just dump the concrete mix in the hole and pour water over it, no mixing. I've always mixed...I don't trust it.

Anyone confirm or deny whether that works? I don't have a wheelbarrow (or anywhere to keep one) so I have to mix in a bucket if I'm gonna mix. Wouldn't break my heart not to mix...

Consider using a liquid wood preservative even though your using pressure treated post some soils rot wood faster than others. Btw did you call diggers hotline

 

[TheBeav815]

Use a spade shovel and you can pry the old concrete footings out. Then, you already will have most of your hole dug and ready to go.

Tried that. The shovel handle was going to give before the footing came up.

 

[SantaBarbaraSker]

This is what we used on a 73' long, 6' tall privacy fence.

Nice!
Putting up another 60' ipe fence here in SB (once it stops raining, and dries out). Those look like a slick system. Look heavier gage than the many I've seen. Galvanized I assume. Would you happen to have a link to where one could purchase such an item?

Ipe fence:

 

[TheBeav815]

We had water leaking into our basement in North Platte until I built up a flower garden along the back of the house where the water got in.

I put in some dirt and angled it away from the house, then put a few layers of thick plastic on it before filling the rest of the dirt on top of the plastic so any water had to enter the ground 3' away from the house.

No more water in the basement!

Poor landscaping causes so many water issues in basements.

My brother's house in Gibbon had the slope of the lawn going down toward the house. Any decent rains flooded his whole basement.

Didn't take him long to take action and do some dirt work all around the house since it ruined so much carpet in his basement.

One of my old coworkers' husband poured a sloped sidewalk around the whole house of every house they ever lived in because he never wanted to deal with water in his basement.

Yeah, in addition to all that work in the front I had to climb into the window well in the back and dig it down lower, cut 3" off the drain pipe, put the grate back on it and then fill with rock. Those two efforts eliminated 2/3 of the places water was getting into the basement.

What can happen is the grade will be OK at the time of the build, but over the years the weight of the house itself compacts the soil and the house sinks down and throws your grade off. I have the same problem in the back where the patio slopes back toward the house. I've been messing with that little by little to get it built up at the side of the house and get a trench in place to carry the water away to the side yard.

My other big project coming up is the drain line from the sump pump. The buried 4" corrugated tubing either collapsed or clogged or both, so it was backing up into the yard. I'm gonna dig all that out and replace it with solid-wall pvc all the way down to the curb and daylight it out. I go back and forth about whether I want to tie any downspouts into it, but probably the more complex I make it, the more ways it can go wrong.

 

[Snickerdoodle70]

Tried that. The shovel handle was going to give before the footing came up.

That's why you buy a steel handled spade.

Also, pm me if you need any advice on your drainage issue(s). Unfortunately, that amongst a myriad of other things used to be my job.