OT: Need some help for an Apologetics class I'm taking at Liberty

[HuskerOH]

03/20/2016
I need 4 people who do not consider themselves Christians. These people must be over 18 years of age and must not identify themselves as a Christian. There are 7 questions regarding world views and opinions of Christians. If you are interested in helping with this please PM me or respond to this thread. This information will not be shared with others, just me writing a paper on this with anonymous sources. I will not respond to any answers, but might ask for clarifications about a specific part of your answer. Here are the questions for you to preview.



Worldview Questions:

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

2.Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

3.What is the meaning and purpose of life?

4.Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

5.What do you think happens to people after they die? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

Apologetic Action Questions:

6 What is your opinion of Christians in general?

7.If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

 

[baseball31ne]

Good luck on the class. Love to see the results of the findings from the class. Always like to see thoughts and opinions on such topics.

 

[ThereIsNoPlace]

Sorry for my apology. Does that help?











I fit your profile so I will try to answer later when I'm home, errrrr, in my lair

 

[mothmonsterman]

03/20/2016
I need 4 people who do not consider themselves Christians. These people must be over 18 years of age and must not identify themselves as a Christian. There are 7 questions regarding world views and opinions of Christians. If you are interested in helping with this please PM me or respond to this thread. This information will not be shared with others, just me writing a paper on this with anonymous sources. I will not respond to any answers, but might ask for clarifications about a specific part of your answer. Here are the questions for you to preview.



Worldview Questions:

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

2.Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

3.What is the meaning and purpose of life?

4.Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

5.What do you think happens to people after they die? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

Apologetic Action Questions:

6 What is your opinion of Christians in general?

7.If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

Hello, glad to help. Some of these questions could inspire book length responses, so my answers will be brief and nowhere near entirely fleshed out. I am not trying to convert anyone to atheism, so I am not providing arguments for why I believe what I believe, I am just giving a brief explanation. I will answer HuskerOH's follow up questions, but I am not interested in debating what I believe, these arguments have been had millions of times and they pretty much always go the same way. If someone wants to confront arguments for atheism, there are tons of places you can do that with people who are interested in discussing it, this is not the place. That said, here you go:

1. Humans evolved from prior organisms over the course of more than one billion years.

2. We have intrinsic value because we evolved into beings with free will, imagination, remorse, the ability to love, to reason, etc.

3. There is no externally imposed meaning of life. I think a good life is one spent learning, cultivating virtues and finding happiness without harming others in the process.

4. Right and wrong exist the same way the truths of mathematics exist. They are rooted in reality and understood through our imperfect ability to discern them. While there is more to it than this, in general, right and wrong mostly have to do with how people negotiate and respect the world around them and our shared human nature.

5. When we die our consciousness disappears. I hope that maybe we experience that last moment of consciousness as a very long, very pleasant dream. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

6. Christians are just like any other group of people, most are good, some aren't. For some, Christianity amplifies their inherently good qualities, for some it thwarts their best qualities. For some it gives license to their worst natures, for others it restrains them. Some of the kindest and best people I know are Christians; I share nothing in common with them, but I like them a great deal.

7. A Christian would have to offer a compelling reason to believe that something outside of the natural order can exist. They would then have to offer compelling evidence that it does exist. Then they would have to demonstrate that the deity is the Abrahamic one. A claim for a deity is an extraordinary one, so the evidence would have to be extraordinary. As of yet, no one has made such an argument, not Aquinas, not Anselm, not any of the modern apologists, etc.

 

[newAD]

Too late in the day. Thats deep. My comprehension level is about here.

 

[k9_r]

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

Carefully b/c all the answers are not in yet. The laws of physics and chemistry offer sufficient explanations for the physical world and for life so that it's not necessary to over think these questions. But, when we peel back the onion all the way to the Big Bang, mysteries still present themselves.

Lesser mysteries also exist such as the origin and purpose of 'intelligence'. These answers will come.

2. Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

- The human race is not an 'accident' in the natural sense of the word; it's existence is a culmination of biological processes following natural laws and that is not an accident. It is 'natural' and, most likely, to be expected given the physical and chemical environment the human race sprang from. "We" are the current end product of these processes. That's not mysterious to me.

- Specifically, the human race is a successful bio mass spreading and thriving across the face of the earth. Given that humans identifiable represent the pinnacle of evolution it is not surprising that we (as a species) are incrementally different than other species which came before us. And importantly different.

Unlike other species, the human race is made up of discrete pieces known as individuals. We are individually different from each other in ways not seen in other species. This difference is owed to the unique evolutionary advancement of the human brain which has given rise to the human mind. It is the human mind which differences us from 'them'.

Humans alone possess a rational mind, that is, a mind which 'reasons'. Humans alone possess a perceptual and a conceptual level of consciousness. We conceive things. Other species possess varying degrees of perceptual consciousness only.

- Of course we have intrinsic value. But that value is useful only to our immediate environment and to each other. We offer no value, for instance, to the processes occurring in the heart of stars.

3. What is the meaning and purpose of life?

Purpose? Yes. Meaning? Why? Why should there be 'meaning' to life?

I think, therefore I am.__Rene Descartes. No further meaning is necessary. Struggling to find meaning to one's life sidetracks that life from it's purpose which is to live.

Life has a single purpose and that is to live. And life is not all that hard but that's another subject.

4. Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

From trial and error. Imagine a newly arrived species struggling to get it's feet on the ground. If it has a human mind, it will quickly learn that 'wrong' causes problems and 'right' will allow progression to safety and security.

Heck, even a non human mind catches on pretty fast. But that non human mind lacks free will and cannot willfully chose wrong. The flower will never (can never) grow it's roots to the sun and it's leaves to the soil. Humans are not so restricted.

5. What do you think happens to people after they die?

The light goes out and the energy dissipates.

5a. Do you believe in heaven and hell?

No. Not post death anyway. On earth? Oh yeah.

5b. Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

Talking about a living heaven or hell, that would be the person acting for himself.

Apologetic Action Questions:

6. What is your opinion of Christians in general?

In general, good people. Not speaking of the errant Christian or two or the errant Christian sect which rises up from time to time.

As a thorough going non believer, I consider myself 'blessed' to have been born into a society whose foundation was informed by the Judeo-Christian ethic. That's easy.

As I look around the world I see the lives living out their adherence to other belief systems and wonder - Are you people paying attention???

7. If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

As has happened a zillion times in my long life. I have long ago learned to cut that effort off quickly. I always let that Christian know that if his faith works for him he should not abandon it. But I also let him know that if he's working on me he is barking up the wrong tree.

I am not evangelical about my non belief but I do give 'witness' in that way. I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

[k9_r]

03/20/2016
I need 4 people who do not consider themselves Christians. These people must be over 18 years of age and must not identify themselves as a Christian. There are 7 questions regarding world views and opinions of Christians. If you are interested in helping with this please PM me or respond to this thread. This information will not be shared with others, just me writing a paper on this with anonymous sources. I will not respond to any answers, but might ask for clarifications about a specific part of your answer. Here are the questions for you to preview.



Worldview Questions:

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

2.Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

3.What is the meaning and purpose of life?

4.Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

5.What do you think happens to people after they die? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

Apologetic Action Questions:

6 What is your opinion of Christians in general?

7.If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

Carefully b/c all the answers are not in yet. The laws of physics and chemistry offer sufficient explanations for the physical world and for life so that it's not necessary to over think these questions. But, when we peel back the onion all the way to the Big Bang, mysteries still present themselves.

Lesser mysteries also exist such as the origin and purpose of 'intelligence'. These answers will come.

2. Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

- The human race is not an 'accident' in the natural sense of the word; it's existence is a culmination of biological processes following natural laws and that is not an accident. It is 'natural' and, most likely, to be expected given the physical and chemical environment the human race sprang from. "We" are the current end product of these processes. That's not mysterious to me.

- Specifically, the human race is a successful bio mass spreading and thriving across the face of the earth. Given that humans identifiable represent the pinnacle of evolution it is not surprising that we (as a species) are incrementally different than other species which came before us. Andimportantly different.

Unlike other species, the human race is made up of discrete pieces known as individuals. We are individually different from each other in ways not seen in other species. This difference is owed to the unique evolutionary advancement of the human brain which has given rise to the human mind. It is the human mind which differences us from 'them'.

Humans alone possess a rational mind, that is, a mind which 'reasons'. Humans alone possess a perceptual and a conceptual level of consciousness. We conceive things. Other species possess varying degrees of perceptual consciousness only.

- Of course we have intrinsic value. But that value is useful only to our immediate environment and to each other. We offer no value, for instance, to the processes occurring in the heart of stars.

3. What is the meaning and purpose of life?

Purpose? Yes. Meaning? Why? Why should there be 'meaning' to life?

I think, therefore I am.__Rene Descartes. No further meaning is necessary. Struggling to find meaning to one's life sidetracks that life from it's purpose which is to live.

Life has a single purpose and that is to live. And life is not all that hard but that's another subject.

4. Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

From trial and error. Imagine a newly arrived species struggling to get it's feet on the ground. If it has a human mind, it will quickly learn that 'wrong' causes problems and 'right' will allow progression to safety and security.

Heck, even a non human mind catches on pretty fast. But that non human mind lacks free will and cannot willfully chose wrong. The flower will never (can never) grow it's roots to the sun and it's leaves to the soil. Humans are not so restricted.


5. What do you think happens to people after they die?

The light goes out and the energy dissipates.

5a. Do you believe in heaven and hell?

No. Not post death anyway. On earth? Oh yeah.

5b. Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

Talking about a living heaven or hell, that would be the person acting for himself.

Apologetic Action Questions:

6. What is your opinion of Christians in general?

In general, good people. Not speaking of the errant Christian or two or the errant Christian sect which rises up from time to time.

As a thorough going non believer, I consider myself 'blessed' to have been born into a society whose foundation was informed by the Judeo-Christian ethic. That's easy.

As I look around the world I see the lives living out their adherence to other belief systems and wonder - Are you people paying attention???

7. If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

As has happened a zillion times in my long life. I have long ago learned to cut that effort off quickly. I always let that Christian know that if his faith works for him he should not abandon it. But I also let him know that if he's working on me he is barking up the wrong tree.

I am not evangelical about my non belief but I do give 'witness' in that way. I'm sure you know what I mean.

 

[CC_Lemming]

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

The origin of the world is a complicated matter. I do not think physicists and cosmologists have yet anything resembling a consensus or clear answer regarding its origin. It's an open quest as far as I'm concerned, and a possible hypothesis, though not one that serves any explanatory utility from what I can see, is that of a Designer. The origin of the human race is easier to answer. There is a wealth of evidence from evolutionary biology that we are evolved creatures. There are still open questions here to be sure, but no one who does their due diligence in studying the matter can question the idea that we are evolved animals.

2. Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

"We" are the most cognitively developed and advanced animals on Earth. It appears we are an accident, but you might be concerned about the constraints naturalism places on the investigations of existential and ethical relevance. As above, I am open to the idea that a Designer somewhere had a hand in our development, but I'm rather skeptical that such a hypothesis serves any explanatory utility (for interesting thoughts from one of the best living philosophers of religion on this issue, see Alvin Plantinga's recent book on naturalism and religion). Do we have intrinsic value? Great question! We are the only species in a position to bestow value on things at all, and I do not find it in the least bit surprising that we decided (e.g., Kant) that we alone have intrinsic value, inherent worth and dignity. Historically, however, this is an idea that came very late to the scene - we didn't always believe this. I think it is actually an idea that Christ made possible with egalitarianism, the idea, for him, that we are all equal because equally loved in the eyes of God. This was a radical idea for its time and place. I grant that we have very strong feelings and intuitions about our having intrinsic value today, and while I am open to attempts that try and ground our having it, I am generally skeptical that any such attempt will ever work. (If you're interested more in this topic, look up the controversies surrounding theories that attempt to ground moral status in humans. If you Google "SEP moral status," written by one of my professors, that would be a good start).

3.What is the meaning and purpose of life?

There is no one meaning and purpose to life. There are many meanings and purposes one could find within life, and some have argued that for those to be worthwhile they must have at least some "objectively" recognizable good making features (i.e., some philosophers deny that one could have a meaningful life that consisted of pulling and counting blades of grass, see Thomas Nagel or Susan Wolf's articles). My intuitions are not as strong regarding the need for objective goods, but I still think the idea that there are multiple meanings, and not just one, is the right one.

4.Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

Our evolutionary and especially our social/cultural history. We are the most cognitively developed species that we know exists, at the same time, physically we are among the most frail. From early on we started forming and living in groups. If you live in groups, and you want to do that at all in a functional way, there are going to have to be some rules. Over thousands and thousands of years we have internalized those rules, mostly through gruesome practices of punishment (cf. Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morality, esp. the second essay). I am an ardent defender of Nietzsche's thesis - I think this is how we developed a conscience, and especially bad conscience, the capacity to feel guilt, which is his focus in the essay.

5. What do you think happens to people after they die? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

"The whole is a riddle, a complete mystery." That is a paraphrase of a quote from David Hume. I don't know what happens to people after they die. Both of my parents are now dead and I am not yet 32. I hope there is an afterlife, but you won't see me promoting it. I also know that the people who developed and came up with the idea of heaven didn't know either. If you look at the controversies surrounding life after death in the early church, it seems likely that immortality was an idea adopted by the early Christians to convert pagans. Paul, e.g., seemed to believe in bodily resurrection, and it seems that was a resurrection that would take place on this earth. Where did this idea of a metaphysical heaven come from?

6. What is your opinion of Christians in general?

Mixed. Know some great ones. Know some real bastards. No point in making a general statement about Christians. Get to know people and then see how their faith informs their personality. Sometimes it does so for the better, sometimes for the worst. I'd say it usually does so for the better.

7. If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

I've had so many such conversations over the years. I don't find it hard to "look into" Christianity. I was once a very devout Christian, and it had a profound impact on my life. I also "look into" Christianity more or less on a daily basis. Here are some policies that are non-starter for getting me to take you seriously. Don't try to "save" me - demonstrate an independent interest in establishing what we know to be true. Related to this, don't assume I don't have good reasons for not being a Christian, part of this conversation has to be your taking my reasons seriously too. Don't use or focus on the Bible as evidence. You can point to things in history, archaeology, skeptical puzzles, or what have you, and use the Bible and the Christian worldview as background evidence for your claims, but don't open up the Gospels, and sure as heck not the Book of John, and then tell "Christ said X, so X is true." (Why not the Book of John? The picture of Christ it presents is by far the most controversial and subject to scrutiny). Don't belittle my life and act like something is missing from it because I don't have your faith, not only is that extremely arrogant, it assumes that I don't find my life fulfilling. I think one of the most persuasive things a Christian can do is to have real and meaningful relationships with people, be a paragon of the faith, give all glory to God, and make others see that the best self you put forth daily really is made possible because of your commitment to that form of life. If people know that side of you, then you can have real conversations about the importance of Christianity. Proselytizing is often little more than an empty sales pitch. Let your deeds, grace, compassion, and humility do the talking.

I wrote that very quickly, so I apologize for mistakes and unclarities. I have a deadline for a paper abstract due 4/1. I'll try my best to respond and elaborate if needed.

 

[CC_Lemming]

Hello, glad to help. Some of these questions could inspire book length responses, so my answers will be brief and nowhere near entirely fleshed out. I am not trying to convert anyone to atheism, so I am not providing arguments for why I believe what I believe, I am just giving a brief explanation. I will answer HuskerOH's follow up questions, but I am not interested in debating what I believe, these arguments have been had millions of times and they pretty much always go the same way. If someone wants to confront arguments for atheism, there are tons of places you can do that with people who are interested in discussing it, this is not the place. That said, here you go:

1. Humans evolved from prior organisms over the course of more than one billion years.

2. We have intrinsic value because we evolved into beings with free will, imagination, remorse, the ability to love, to reason, etc.

3. There is no externally imposed meaning of life. I think a good life is one spent learning, cultivating virtues and finding happiness without harming others in the process.

4. Right and wrong exist the same way the truths of mathematics exist. They are rooted in reality and understood through our imperfect ability to discern them. While there is more to it than this, in general, right and wrong mostly have to do with how people negotiate and respect the world around them and our shared human nature.

5. When we die our consciousness disappears. I hope that maybe we experience that last moment of consciousness as a very long, very pleasant dream. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

6. Christians are just like any other group of people, most are good, some aren't. For some, Christianity amplifies their inherently good qualities, for some it thwarts their best qualities. For some it gives license to their worst natures, for others it restrains them. Some of the kindest and best people I know are Christians; I share nothing in common with them, but I like them a great deal.

7. A Christian would have to offer a compelling reason to believe that something outside of the natural order can exist. They would then have to offer compelling evidence that it does exist. Then they would have to demonstrate that the deity is the Abrahamic one. A claim for a deity is an extraordinary one, so the evidence would have to be extraordinary. As of yet, no one has made such an argument, not Aquinas, not Anselm, not any of the modern apologists, etc.

Moth, wish I had more time, I'd love to have a more in-depth conversation about some of your claims - some of them surprised me! For instance, that we have free will, how the capacities you identified contribute to our having intrinsic value, and that you're a realist about right and wrong. Sorry, I don't have the time to have a lengthy conversation about these at the moment, but I do invite you to say more (if you'd like), and I would certainly get back to you. I enjoy hearing your thoughts.

 

[TheBeav815]

Does it count if I believe in the concept of God and divinity, but I just think the story of the virgin birth and Jesus as the begotten son is flagrant BS?


Worldview Questions:

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world? On the human race I go with the most widely-accepted theory that humans as we exist today evolved over millions of years from a shared ancestor or perhaps a set of ancestors. There is still a great deal we don't know about the ancient world. As for the Earth, I'm not sure we've proven *the* answer for where the Universe came from, but there is a lot of cool information on starts, nebulae, and how planets are formed.

2.Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value? We are animals, though we like to pretend not to be. When you look at humans in terms of how you might expect a primate of our size to act, turns out we don't disappoint. Some excel at acting in more "divine" and "enlightened" ways, while others seem to be held totally hostage by biological drives and others are in between (see: Maslow).

The accident question really depends on your definition of accident. Let's look at it from a "Creationism vs Not Creationism" standpoint. I don't believe that we were suddenly made, but that doesn't mean it was an accident. Millions of years of changes so small and subtle you'd never notice them in one lifetime or even ten all had to interact with an ever-shifting environment to bring us to where we are today. The longer we've been around, the better we've gotten at exerting our will over that environment.

I believe we do have intrinsic value.

3.What is the meaning and purpose of life? To leave things as good or better than you found them. Spread knowledge into the world, spread compassion, be helpful to those you encounter. Some of Jesus' best teachings were the simplest. "Love thy neighbor."

4.Where does the idea of right and wrong come from? A fascinating dance of the ideas you encounter and how you're wired. On a simple level, you define "wrong" as the things that bring you guilt. Maybe it's a bad thing you did, or maybe it's a good thing you didn't. Say you saw somebody changing a tire by the highway and you didn't stop and help. Is that terrible, are you going to jail? No. But maybe you felt that twinge of, "I could have helped them, it would have been the better thing to do." Then you have your answer.

5.What do you think happens to people after they die? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell? This is a VERY fascinating subject to me. I've done some reading on near-death experiences and they've helped shape my belief that there is something more than what we can perceive with our physical body.

I believe in heaven and hell not as places on a map that you could travel to, but as collections of energy that we put out into the world. Have you ever gone into a room and it had a "vibe" to it? Say you stepped into a bar where everyone knows everyone...but they didn't know you. You can feel that hostility.

Or remember the Texas game, right before the fumble where they lost, NU took the momentum and it started to snow, and there was just this energy in the stadium that you could sense. What if there is something to that and it extends beyond just your body and your sensations? What if that energy "goes" somewhere?

The most interesting NDE stories to me are the ones people report as negative. They describe darkness, other entities harming them or trying to harm them. Much like what you would get if you just threw a bunch of angry people into a room together. They'd do what they do: lash out at other people. I think a soul ends up in "hell" or "purgatory" of its own doing. Maybe there's not some "gatekeeper" deciding they have to be there for exactly 150 years, but if a soul refused to be part of light and love and acceptance in life, would it embrace the light in death?

Apologetic Action Questions:

6 What is your opinion of Christians in general? The same as any other religion, I think they misinterpret a lot of the teaching and metaphors of holy scriptures. I regard the various faiths as teachings about the ways we are all the same, the ways that while our paths may start and wind through many different places, we are all on a journey toward the same mountain top. I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher with gifts of enlightenment beyond what most people have ever attained or seen. But I don't think God was literally his dad.

It's unfortunate how hung up we are on the name of Jesus, the number of times in a church I've heard that notion of, "If you don't think Jesus was the Son of God and you don't accept him as your personal Lord and Savior, you're not going to heaven." It's a thing to say, it's the quick-fix people want so they can believe they're going to heaven. Too much time is spent talking about how Godly you are, making a noise and a display of your faith rather than just living in it. Being present.

7.If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?[/QUOTE] You cannot convince a person who does not want to be convinced. In that sense, I don't care for people who are aggressively atheist any more than I do evangelical Christians who stand on some campus literally waving a Bible and calling students sinners.

Ultimately, what does it matter? The point of faith is not to convince others to change their minds. It's certainly not to convince others to come to church, though that's what it has become through monetary need. The point is to be a conduit for peace and love, calmness and stillness. Sadly, some of the people who profess to be the most devout are tangibly the furthest from having a life of calm and stillness.

 

[HuskerOH]

Hello, glad to help. Some of these questions could inspire book length responses, so my answers will be brief and nowhere near entirely fleshed out. I am not trying to convert anyone to atheism, so I am not providing arguments for why I believe what I believe, I am just giving a brief explanation. I will answer HuskerOH's follow up questions, but I am not interested in debating what I believe, these arguments have been had millions of times and they pretty much always go the same way. If someone wants to confront arguments for atheism, there are tons of places you can do that with people who are interested in discussing it, this is not the place. That said, here you go:

1. Humans evolved from prior organisms over the course of more than one billion years.

2. We have intrinsic value because we evolved into beings with free will, imagination, remorse, the ability to love, to reason, etc.

3. There is no externally imposed meaning of life. I think a good life is one spent learning, cultivating virtues and finding happiness without harming others in the process.

4. Right and wrong exist the same way the truths of mathematics exist. They are rooted in reality and understood through our imperfect ability to discern them. While there is more to it than this, in general, right and wrong mostly have to do with how people negotiate and respect the world around them and our shared human nature.

5. When we die our consciousness disappears. I hope that maybe we experience that last moment of consciousness as a very long, very pleasant dream. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

6. Christians are just like any other group of people, most are good, some aren't. For some, Christianity amplifies their inherently good qualities, for some it thwarts their best qualities. For some it gives license to their worst natures, for others it restrains them. Some of the kindest and best people I know are Christians; I share nothing in common with them, but I like them a great deal.

7. A Christian would have to offer a compelling reason to believe that something outside of the natural order can exist. They would then have to offer compelling evidence that it does exist. Then they would have to demonstrate that the deity is the Abrahamic one. A claim for a deity is an extraordinary one, so the evidence would have to be extraordinary. As of yet, no one has made such an argument, not Aquinas, not Anselm, not any of the modern apologists, etc.

Thank-you for your time on answering these questions. I do have a a follow-up question regarding you answer to #6... Do you believe there is evil in the world spawned by a power such as Satan or any other demonic power? Could this power use people, or over take them to do their will?

 

[HuskerOH]

Sorry for my apology. Does that help?











I fit your profile so I will try to answer later when I'm home, errrrr, in my lair

It made me smile and chuckle, so yes it helped!!

 

[HuskerOH]

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

Carefully b/c all the answers are not in yet. The laws of physics and chemistry offer sufficient explanations for the physical world and for life so that it's not necessary to over think these questions. But, when we peel back the onion all the way to the Big Bang, mysteries still present themselves.

Lesser mysteries also exist such as the origin and purpose of 'intelligence'. These answers will come.

2. Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

- The human race is not an 'accident' in the natural sense of the word; it's existence is a culmination of biological processes following natural laws and that is not an accident. It is 'natural' and, most likely, to be expected given the physical and chemical environment the human race sprang from. "We" are the current end product of these processes. That's not mysterious to me.

- Specifically, the human race is a successful bio mass spreading and thriving across the face of the earth. Given that humans identifiable represent the pinnacle of evolution it is not surprising that we (as a species) are incrementally different than other species which came before us. Andimportantly different.

Unlike other species, the human race is made up of discrete pieces known as individuals. We are individually different from each other in ways not seen in other species. This difference is owed to the unique evolutionary advancement of the human brain which has given rise to the human mind. It is the human mind which differences us from 'them'.

Humans alone possess a rational mind, that is, a mind which 'reasons'. Humans alone possess a perceptual and a conceptual level of consciousness. We conceive things. Other species possess varying degrees of perceptual consciousness only.

- Of course we have intrinsic value. But that value is useful only to our immediate environment and to each other. We offer no value, for instance, to the processes occurring in the heart of stars.

3. What is the meaning and purpose of life?

Purpose? Yes. Meaning? Why? Why should there be 'meaning' to life?

I think, therefore I am.__Rene Descartes. No further meaning is necessary. Struggling to find meaning to one's life sidetracks that life from it's purpose which is to live.

Life has a single purpose and that is to live. And life is not all that hard but that's another subject.

4. Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

From trial and error. Imagine a newly arrived species struggling to get it's feet on the ground. If it has a human mind, it will quickly learn that 'wrong' causes problems and 'right' will allow progression to safety and security.

Heck, even a non human mind catches on pretty fast. But that non human mind lacks free will and cannot willfully chose wrong. The flower will never (can never) grow it's roots to the sun and it's leaves to the soil. Humans are not so restricted.


5. What do you think happens to people after they die?

The light goes out and the energy dissipates.

5a. Do you believe in heaven and hell?

No. Not post death anyway. On earth? Oh yeah.

5b. Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

Talking about a living heaven or hell, that would be the person acting for himself.

Apologetic Action Questions:

6. What is your opinion of Christians in general?

In general, good people. Not speaking of the errant Christian or two or the errant Christian sect which rises up from time to time.

As a thorough going non believer, I consider myself 'blessed' to have been born into a society whose foundation was informed by the Judeo-Christian ethic. That's easy.

As I look around the world I see the lives living out their adherence to other belief systems and wonder - Are you people paying attention???

7. If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

As has happened a zillion times in my long life. I have long ago learned to cut that effort off quickly. I always let that Christian know that if his faith works for him he should not abandon it. But I also let him know that if he's working on me he is barking up the wrong tree.

I am not evangelical about my non belief but I do give 'witness' in that way. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Thank-you for your time answering these questions for me. I am a Horticulturist by trade (Landscaper and self employed for 30 yrs), so your answer to question question 4 intrigued me. You are correct about the flower, but not sure if you fully understand why. The roots must grow down by the laws of gravity or it will not grow. NASA figured this out in space when the could not get plants to grow until they gave them a false sense of gravity by "spinning them around to produce gravity". Once the plant was able to determine what was up and what was down, it was then able to grow. For me any way, this is similar to how we know what is right and wrong by a predetermined "seed" planted in us by God.

 

[HuskerOH]

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world?

The origin of the world is a complicated matter. I do not think physicists and cosmologists have yet anything resembling a consensus or clear answer regarding its origin. It's an open quest as far as I'm concerned, and a possible hypothesis, though not one that serves any explanatory utility from what I can see, is that of a Designer. The origin of the human race is easier to answer. There is a wealth of evidence from evolutionary biology that we are evolved creatures. There are still open questions here to be sure, but no one who does their due diligence in studying the matter can question the idea that we are evolved animals.

2. Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value?

"We" are the most cognitively developed and advanced animals on Earth. It appears we are an accident, but you might be concerned about the constraints naturalism places on the investigations of existential and ethical relevance. As above, I am open to the idea that a Designer somewhere had a hand in our development, but I'm rather skeptical that such a hypothesis serves any explanatory utility (for interesting thoughts from one of the best living philosophers of religion on this issue, see Alvin Plantinga's recent book on naturalism and religion). Do we have intrinsic value? Great question! We are the only species in a position to bestow value on things at all, and I do not find it in the least bit surprising that we decided (e.g., Kant) that we alone have intrinsic value, inherent worth and dignity. Historically, however, this is an idea that came very late to the scene - we didn't always believe this. I think it is actually an idea that Christ made possible with egalitarianism, the idea, for him, that we are all equal because equally loved in the eyes of God. This was a radical idea for its time and place. I grant that we have very strong feelings and intuitions about our having intrinsic value today, and while I am open to attempts that try and ground our having it, I am generally skeptical that any such attempt will ever work. (If you're interested more in this topic, look up the controversies surrounding theories that attempt to ground moral status in humans. If you Google "SEP moral status," written by one of my professors, that would be a good start).

3.What is the meaning and purpose of life?

There is no one meaning and purpose to life. There are many meanings and purposes one could find within life, and some have argued that for those to be worthwhile they must have at least some "objectively" recognizable good making features (i.e., some philosophers deny that one could have a meaningful life that consisted of pulling and counting blades of grass, see Thomas Nagel or Susan Wolf's articles). My intuitions are not as strong regarding the need for objective goods, but I still think the idea that there are multiple meanings, and not just one, is the right one.

4.Where does the idea of right and wrong come from?

Our evolutionary and especially our social/cultural history. We are the most cognitively developed species that we know exists, at the same time, physically we are among the most frail. From early on we started forming and living in groups. If you live in groups, and you want to do that at all in a functional way, there are going to have to be some rules. Over thousands and thousands of years we have internalized those rules, mostly through gruesome practices of punishment (cf. Nietzsche's Genealogy of Morality, esp. the second essay). I am an ardent defender of Nietzsche's thesis - I think this is how we developed a conscience, and especially bad conscience, the capacity to feel guilt, which is his focus in the essay.

5. What do you think happens to people after they die? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell?

"The whole is a riddle, a complete mystery." That is a paraphrase of a quote from David Hume. I don't know what happens to people after they die. Both of my parents are now dead and I am not yet 32. I hope there is an afterlife, but you won't see me promoting it. I also know that the people who developed and came up with the idea of heaven didn't know either. If you look at the controversies surrounding life after death in the early church, it seems likely that immortality was an idea adopted by the early Christians to convert pagans. Paul, e.g., seemed to believe in bodily resurrection, and it seems that was a resurrection that would take place on this earth. Where did this idea of a metaphysical heaven come from?

6. What is your opinion of Christians in general?

Mixed. Know some great ones. Know some real bastards. No point in making a general statement about Christians. Get to know people and then see how their faith informs their personality. Sometimes it does so for the better, sometimes for the worst. I'd say it usually does so for the better.

7. If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

I've had so many such conversations over the years. I don't find it hard to "look into" Christianity. I was once a very devout Christian, and it had a profound impact on my life. I also "look into" Christianity more or less on a daily basis. Here are some policies that are non-starter for getting me to take you seriously. Don't try to "save" me - demonstrate an independent interest in establishing what we know to be true. Related to this, don't assume I don't have good reasons for not being a Christian, part of this conversation has to be your taking my reasons seriously too. Don't use or focus on the Bible as evidence. You can point to things in history, archaeology, skeptical puzzles, or what have you, and use the Bible and the Christian worldview as background evidence for your claims, but don't open up the Gospels, and sure as heck not the Book of John, and then tell "Christ said X, so X is true." (Why not the Book of John? The picture of Christ it presents is by far the most controversial and subject to scrutiny). Don't belittle my life and act like something is missing from it because I don't have your faith, not only is that extremely arrogant, it assumes that I don't find my life fulfilling. I think one of the most persuasive things a Christian can do is to have real and meaningful relationships with people, be a paragon of the faith, give all glory to God, and make others see that the best self you put forth daily really is made possible because of your commitment to that form of life. If people know that side of you, then you can have real conversations about the importance of Christianity. Proselytizing is often little more than an empty sales pitch. Let your deeds, grace, compassion, and humility do the talking.

I wrote that very quickly, so I apologize for mistakes and unclarities. I have a deadline for a paper abstract due 4/1. I'll try my best to respond and elaborate if needed.

Thank-you for your time writing this. Couple of thoughts... Have you ever looked into or researched the Apostle of Paul? Very interesting man. Extremely zealous about his life as a Jew and his willingness and wanting to eradicate ALL the Christians for their beliefs. How can a man who studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of his ancestors (Pharisee) do a 180 and give his life for Christ? As far as the Gospel's are concerned, I like to start with Luke. He was physician, who was a companion of Paul, but in order to give his writings legitimacy, he interviewed the witnesses who saw the events that are written in the Bible. He did not rely upon hearsay. He is also the author of Acts, or as it should be called "The story continues"...

 

[HuskerOH]

Does it count if I believe in the concept of God and divinity, but I just think the story of the virgin birth and Jesus as the begotten son is flagrant BS?


Worldview Questions:

1. How do you describe the origin of the human race and the world? On the human race I go with the most widely-accepted theory that humans as we exist today evolved over millions of years from a shared ancestor or perhaps a set of ancestors. There is still a great deal we don't know about the ancient world. As for the Earth, I'm not sure we've proven *the* answer for where the Universe came from, but there is a lot of cool information on starts, nebulae, and how planets are formed.

2.Who are “we” as the human race? Are we an accident? Do we have intrinsic value? We are animals, though we like to pretend not to be. When you look at humans in terms of how you might expect a primate of our size to act, turns out we don't disappoint. Some excel at acting in more "divine" and "enlightened" ways, while others seem to be held totally hostage by biological drives and others are in between (see: Maslow).

The accident question really depends on your definition of accident. Let's look at it from a "Creationism vs Not Creationism" standpoint. I don't believe that we were suddenly made, but that doesn't mean it was an accident. Millions of years of changes so small and subtle you'd never notice them in one lifetime or even ten all had to interact with an ever-shifting environment to bring us to where we are today. The longer we've been around, the better we've gotten at exerting our will over that environment.

I believe we do have intrinsic value.

3.What is the meaning and purpose of life? To leave things as good or better than you found them. Spread knowledge into the world, spread compassion, be helpful to those you encounter. Some of Jesus' best teachings were the simplest. "Love thy neighbor."

4.Where does the idea of right and wrong come from? A fascinating dance of the ideas you encounter and how you're wired. On a simple level, you define "wrong" as the things that bring you guilt. Maybe it's a bad thing you did, or maybe it's a good thing you didn't. Say you saw somebody changing a tire by the highway and you didn't stop and help. Is that terrible, are you going to jail? No. But maybe you felt that twinge of, "I could have helped them, it would have been the better thing to do." Then you have your answer.

5.What do you think happens to people after they die? Do you believe in heaven and hell? Who decides or how does one get to heaven versus hell? This is a VERY fascinating subject to me. I've done some reading on near-death experiences and they've helped shape my belief that there is something more than what we can perceive with our physical body.

I believe in heaven and hell not as places on a map that you could travel to, but as collections of energy that we put out into the world. Have you ever gone into a room and it had a "vibe" to it? Say you stepped into a bar where everyone knows everyone...but they didn't know you. You can feel that hostility.

Or remember the Texas game, right before the fumble where they lost, NU took the momentum and it started to snow, and there was just this energy in the stadium that you could sense. What if there is something to that and it extends beyond just your body and your sensations? What if that energy "goes" somewhere?

The most interesting NDE stories to me are the ones people report as negative. They describe darkness, other entities harming them or trying to harm them. Much like what you would get if you just threw a bunch of angry people into a room together. They'd do what they do: lash out at other people. I think a soul ends up in "hell" or "purgatory" of its own doing. Maybe there's not some "gatekeeper" deciding they have to be there for exactly 150 years, but if a soul refused to be part of light and love and acceptance in life, would it embrace the light in death?

Apologetic Action Questions:

6 What is your opinion of Christians in general? The same as any other religion, I think they misinterpret a lot of the teaching and metaphors of holy scriptures. I regard the various faiths as teachings about the ways we are all the same, the ways that while our paths may start and wind through many different places, we are all on a journey toward the same mountain top. I think Jesus was a spiritual teacher with gifts of enlightenment beyond what most people have ever attained or seen. But I don't think God was literally his dad.

It's unfortunate how hung up we are on the name of Jesus, the number of times in a church I've heard that notion of, "If you don't think Jesus was the Son of God and you don't accept him as your personal Lord and Savior, you're not going to heaven." It's a thing to say, it's the quick-fix people want so they can believe they're going to heaven. Too much time is spent talking about how Godly you are, making a noise and a display of your faith rather than just living in it. Being present.

7.If a Christian were to sit down and talk with you about their faith, what would it take to convince you that it was worth looking into or accepting?

You cannot convince a person who does not want to be convinced. In that sense, I don't care for people who are aggressively atheist any more than I do evangelical Christians who stand on some campus literally waving a Bible and calling students sinners.

Ultimately, what does it matter? The point of faith is not to convince others to change their minds. It's certainly not to convince others to come to church, though that's what it has become through monetary need. The point is to be a conduit for peace and love, calmness and stillness. Sadly, some of the people who profess to be the most devout are tangibly the furthest from having a life of calm and stillness.[/QUOTE]


Thanks for taking the time to assist me with my paper!! I love the last paragraph and especially the last sentence! Paul let's you know what you can expect if you fully accept Christ and what the Holy Spirit will do for you. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23. This will sort of help explain those who have or have not allowed themselves to be overtaken by Christ...

 

[TheBeav815]

You cannot convince a person who does not want to be convinced. In that sense, I don't care for people who are aggressively atheist any more than I do evangelical Christians who stand on some campus literally waving a Bible and calling students sinners.

Ultimately, what does it matter? The point of faith is not to convince others to change their minds. It's certainly not to convince others to come to church, though that's what it has become through monetary need. The point is to be a conduit for peace and love, calmness and stillness. Sadly, some of the people who profess to be the most devout are tangibly the furthest from having a life of calm and stillness.

Thanks for taking the time to assist me with my paper!! I love the last paragraph and especially the last sentence! Paul let's you know what you can expect if you fully accept Christ and what the Holy Spirit will do for you. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23. This will sort of help explain those who have or have not allowed themselves to be overtaken by Christ...[/QUOTE]
To my mind, what people don't understand is that they're describing how Jesus was enlightened in the Buddhist sense, that he had achieved oneness. The language Christians seem to like is so much more veiled and laced with metaphor. Not only that but they were GREEK metaphors and through a series of translations and a loss of thousands of years of context, people have no idea how apt the language was at the time of writing.

So it becomes this thing of, "If I say Jesus is the best and it's all about Him, then that's what I'm supposed to do. That's what faith is. It's all about Jesus and so because of that, I have to shun other faiths and look down upon the 'unbeliever' because I'm saved and they're not." You don't talk about Jesus, you emulate him.

The word "sin" is a big one for me. People today usually have no idea what that term means or how to trace back its roots. It is simply, "to miss the mark" as when describing shooting an arrow at a target. People today equate it with evil. You're a sinner, you sin, man is born in sin, it's bad, you're bad, you're going to hell, so go to church and make a big show of how great Jesus is and that'll punch your ticket to heaven. Again, that's not what it means. You have to understand it in terms of straying off a path. It's not necessarily horrible, but it won't get you to where you're trying to go.

The idea of "original sin" and that we are "born in sin" just means that generally speaking, all humans start from a place of being unenlightened. We have not transcended our attachment to ego and our identification with our body and the belief that we are our mind.

 

[HuskerOH]

Thanks for taking the time to assist me with my paper!! I love the last paragraph and especially the last sentence! Paul let's you know what you can expect if you fully accept Christ and what the Holy Spirit will do for you. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Galatians 5:22-23. This will sort of help explain those who have or have not allowed themselves to be overtaken by Christ...

To my mind, what people don't understand is that they're describing how Jesus was enlightened in the Buddhist sense, that he had achieved oneness. The language Christians seem to like is so much more veiled and laced with metaphor. Not only that but they were GREEK metaphors and through a series of translations and a loss of thousands of years of context, people have no idea how apt the language was at the time of writing.

So it becomes this thing of, "If I say Jesus is the best and it's all about Him, then that's what I'm supposed to do. That's what faith is. It's all about Jesus and so because of that, I have to shun other faiths and look down upon the 'unbeliever' because I'm saved and they're not." You don't talk about Jesus, you emulate him.

The word "sin" is a big one for me. People today usually have no idea what that term means or how to trace back its roots. It is simply, "to miss the mark" as when describing shooting an arrow at a target. People today equate it with evil. You're a sinner, you sin, man is born in sin, it's bad, you're bad, you're going to hell, so go to church and make a big show of how great Jesus is and that'll punch your ticket to heaven. Again, that's not what it means. You have to understand it in terms of straying off a path. It's not necessarily horrible, but it won't get you to where you're trying to go.

The idea of "original sin" and that we are "born in sin" just means that generally speaking, all humans start from a place of being unenlightened. We have not transcended our attachment to ego and our identification with our body and the belief that we are our mind.[/QUOTE]



The best definition of "sin" is, separation from God. When we sin, we separate ourselves from what God wants for us. All but 1 sin is forgivable, when we truly repent of our sins, we then live in unison with God and His love for us.

 

[TheLiberalHunter]

Hello, glad to help. Some of these questions could inspire book length responses, so my answers will be brief and nowhere near entirely fleshed out. I am not trying to convert anyone to atheism, so I am not providing arguments for why I believe what I believe, I am just giving a brief explanation. I will answer HuskerOH's follow up questions, but I am not interested in debating what I believe, these arguments have been had millions of times and they pretty much always go the same way. If someone wants to confront arguments for atheism, there are tons of places you can do that with people who are interested in discussing it, this is not the place. That said, here you go:

1. Humans evolved from prior organisms over the course of more than one billion years.

2. We have intrinsic value because we evolved into beings with free will, imagination, remorse, the ability to love, to reason, etc.

3. There is no externally imposed meaning of life. I think a good life is one spent learning, cultivating virtues and finding happiness without harming others in the process.

4. Right and wrong exist the same way the truths of mathematics exist. They are rooted in reality and understood through our imperfect ability to discern them. While there is more to it than this, in general, right and wrong mostly have to do with how people negotiate and respect the world around them and our shared human nature.

5. When we die our consciousness disappears. I hope that maybe we experience that last moment of consciousness as a very long, very pleasant dream. I don't believe in heaven or hell.

6. Christians are just like any other group of people, most are good, some aren't. For some, Christianity amplifies their inherently good qualities, for some it thwarts their best qualities. For some it gives license to their worst natures, for others it restrains them. Some of the kindest and best people I know are Christians; I share nothing in common with them, but I like them a great deal.

7. A Christian would have to offer a compelling reason to believe that something outside of the natural order can exist. They would then have to offer compelling evidence that it does exist. Then they would have to demonstrate that the deity is the Abrahamic one. A claim for a deity is an extraordinary one, so the evidence would have to be extraordinary. As of yet, no one has made such an argument, not Aquinas, not Anselm, not any of the modern apologists, etc.

Hey Moth, interesting stuff. The one thing that I can't reconcile, that no Creationist has ever answered, is how did organic life start from inorganic material? I've always thought that Evolutionists and Creationists aren't arguing the same thing. Clearly, things evolve over time. I do find it odd though that a skeleton has never been found where the asshole was on the elbow or something really odd like that.

It seems people like to talk about "what are the odds" and then, when you look at Evolution, you have to consider "the odds". Not just in our end ability to reason but everything with the Earth being X distance from the Sun, the Gravity issue...everything in an endless Universe had to be "just right"...and that is more acceptable than "a big Guy in the Sky".

The whole "there was nothing and then BANG!...there was everything also seems a bit incredulous to me.

Makes a guy crazy thinking about it but if you can address the organic life from inorganic material issue, I'd be curious to hear...

 

[CC_Lemming]

Thank-you for your time writing this. Couple of thoughts... Have you ever looked into or researched the Apostle of Paul? Very interesting man. Extremely zealous about his life as a Jew and his willingness and wanting to eradicate ALL the Christians for their beliefs. How can a man who studied under Gamaliel and was thoroughly trained in the law of his ancestors (Pharisee) do a 180 and give his life for Christ? As far as the Gospel's are concerned, I like to start with Luke. He was physician, who was a companion of Paul, but in order to give his writings legitimacy, he interviewed the witnesses who saw the events that are written in the Bible. He did not rely upon hearsay. He is also the author of Acts, or as it should be called "The story continues"...

I haven't looked into Paul's life as much as I should. Someday I will have to, as the person I study argues that Paul distorted Jesus' message and in the process makes a number of inflammatory claims about him. I do not find his treatment of Paul all that compelling, but I do wonder whether there is anything to it at all.

 

[TheBeav815]

Hey Moth, interesting stuff. The one thing that I can't reconcile, that no Creationist has ever answered, is how did organic life start from inorganic material? I've always thought that Evolutionists and Creationists aren't arguing the same thing. Clearly, things evolve over time. I do find it odd though that a skeleton has never been found where the asshole was on the elbow or something really odd like that.

It seems people like to talk about "what are the odds" and then, when you look at Evolution, you have to consider "the odds". Not just in our end ability to reason but everything with the Earth being X distance from the Sun, the Gravity issue...everything in an endless Universe had to be "just right"...and that is more acceptable than "a big Guy in the Sky".

The whole "there was nothing and then BANG!...there was everything also seems a bit incredulous to me.

Makes a guy crazy thinking about it but if you can address the organic life from inorganic material issue, I'd be curious to hear...

Have you watched any of Cosmos? They get into some theories around this stuff, it's pretty cool. I don't know that we have an agreed-upon answer for where organic life comes from. The answer very well could be that the first microbes were introduced when a meteorite or comet collided with Earth.

 

[Huskerfan2112]

Reading through these answers, I have to say I am impressed. Really well reasoned and thought out explanations on both sides, particularly the correct one. I figured the thread would spiral into bitter name calling as many do. Great stuff here. Glad to read it all.

 

[TheBeav815]

Reading through these answers, I have to say I am impressed. Really well reasoned and thought out explanations on both sides, particularly the correct one...

And with that...the bait was placed.

 

[nebcountry]

Have you watched any of Cosmos? They get into some theories around this stuff, it's pretty cool. I don't know that we have an agreed-upon answer for where organic life comes from. The answer very well could be that the first microbes were introduced when a meteorite or comet collided with Earth.

It's called abbiogenisis or something like that. It would be interesting to reply to the original OP, but I identify myself as a Christian (though I have skepticism). Our lives our finite, and when considered on a cosmic basis, are incredibly short. Based on my perception of time and space, one path has lead to me being me. If a different path would've occurred, there'd be no me.

 

[HuskerOH]

I haven't looked into Paul's life as much as I should. Someday I will have to, as the person I study argues that Paul distorted Jesus' message and in the process makes a number of inflammatory claims about him. I do not find his treatment of Paul all that compelling, but I do wonder whether there is anything to it at all.

When you look into his life, also look into each city he addressed his letters to because they have a lot to say about that cities lifestyle and thought processes towards deities. When you look at Romans, keep in mind he had never been to Rome yet, but was giving the recipients of the letter an explanation of who he was, what he thought, and how Christ answered all the prophesies. You can tell he was an extremely well educated person and knew how to parse words.

 

[mothmonsterman]

Thank-you for your time on answering these questions. I do have a a follow-up question regarding you answer to #6... Do you believe there is evil in the world spawned by a power such as Satan or any other demonic power? Could this power use people, or over take them to do their will?

No, I don't believe in any supernatural entities. I think people do evil things for many reasons. They might have difficulty controlling negative impulses due to a bad upbringing or a mental disorder (though these things don't necessarily absolve them of moral responsibility.) Normal people can participate in the worst sorts of evil if they can be given license to rationalize it as good.

 

[CC_Lemming]

No, I don't believe in any supernatural entities. I think people do evil things for many reasons. They might have difficulty controlling negative impulses due to a bad upbringing or a mental disorder (though these things don't necessarily absolve them of moral responsibility.) Normal people can participate in the worst sorts of evil if they can be given license to rationalize it as good.

That was certainly the case with the holocaust. What an atrocity, made all the more maddening by just how banal and commonplace murder became for those complicit. A truly scary reflection of the worst of human nature - I speak not of committing the acts themselves (usually these people are seriously mentally compromised), but turning a blind eye toward the acts or failing to recognize and affected by evil at all. It's the same sort of thing we do everyday when we pass by a homeless person and refuse to look them in the face or pretend they exist, just on a vastly different scale. Arendt was right about the banality of evil.

 

[mothmonsterman]

Hey Moth, interesting stuff. The one thing that I can't reconcile, that no Creationist has ever answered, is how did organic life start from inorganic material? I've always thought that Evolutionists and Creationists aren't arguing the same thing. Clearly, things evolve over time. I do find it odd though that a skeleton has never been found where the asshole was on the elbow or something really odd like that.

It seems people like to talk about "what are the odds" and then, when you look at Evolution, you have to consider "the odds". Not just in our end ability to reason but everything with the Earth being X distance from the Sun, the Gravity issue...everything in an endless Universe had to be "just right"...and that is more acceptable than "a big Guy in the Sky".

The whole "there was nothing and then BANG!...there was everything also seems a bit incredulous to me.

Makes a guy crazy thinking about it but if you can address the organic life from inorganic material issue, I'd be curious to hear...

That's probably a good question for a biologist or a chemist. The origin of life from nothing is a fascinating subject, and I honestly don't know where the science is in regards to it. Regarding everything being perfectly in order for life on Earth, I would say that the universe is a big enough place that it was likely to happen somewhere (or multiple somewheres.) This is just conjecture on my part, but I think that existence may have always existed, our universe had a beginning but it was born from another which was born from another and so on forever. Admittedly, I could well be wrong.

 

[mothmonsterman]

That was certainly the case with the holocaust. What an atrocity, made all the more maddening by just how banal and commonplace murder became for those complicit. A truly scary reflection of the worst of human nature - I speak not of committing the acts themselves (usually these people are seriously mentally compromised), but turning a blind eye toward the acts or failing to recognize and affected by evil at all. It's the same sort of thing we do everyday when we pass by a homeless person and refuse to look them in the face or pretend they exist, just on a vastly different scale. Arendt was right about the banality of evil.

Christopher Browning wrote a great book called "Ordinary Men" in which he delves into the motivations and backgrounds of members of Nazi death squads operating in the East.

 

[CC_Lemming]

Christopher Browning wrote a great book called "Ordinary Men" in which he delves into the motivations and backgrounds of members of Nazi death squads operating in the East.

Haven't read Brownings work, but I've read Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, a very similar book, written in part as a response to Browning.

 

[mothmonsterman]

Haven't read Brownings work, but I've read Goldhagen's Hitler's Willing Executioners, a very similar book, written in part as a response to Browning.

Not to derail this thread, but Goldhagen's thesis has come under heavy fire in recent years. Most historians of the holocaust only mention his thesis now as part of the rundown of Holocaust historiography.

 

[CC_Lemming]

Not to derail this thread, but Goldhagen's thesis has come under heavy fire in recent years. Most historians of the holocaust only mention his thesis now as part of the rundown of Holocaust historiography.

Yeah, I was aware of some of the backlash while reading it so I'm not surprised. As you probably know, his thesis is cultural-causal (for others who might care, he thinks the Germans were 'elimination anti-semitists' dating back to Luther). As an explanatory thesis it isn't very satisfying. Psychologists like John Doris, Stanley Milgram, and (to a lesser extent, imo) Zimbardo have been much more cautious in their methodology and offered more compelling explanations of complicity. For my part I think group effect played a huge role and continues to play a big role in undermining ascriptions of moral responsibility. Goldhagen's best moments are when he points out discrepancies in German attitudes toward Polish non-Jews.