Deandre Johnson dismissed from FSU

[bigboxes]

You guys are living in fantasy land. There's no question here. He assaulted her. Not the other way around. He pushed his way to the front and then bullied her. He grabbed her to control her, not in self defense. He was dismissed from the team, not put in suspension while they investigate. The video speaks for itself. You macho guys talk of scenarios where it's ok to hit her. I can't imagine these are the values your parents taught you.

 

[HuskerO]

You guys are living in fantasy land. There's no question here. He assaulted her. Not the other way around. He pushed his way to the front and then bullied her. He grabbed her to control her, not in self defense. He was dismissed from the team, not put in suspension while they investigate. The video speaks for itself. You macho guys talk of scenarios where it's ok to hit her. I can't imagine these are the values your parents taught you.

Did he push her before she stuck out her left hip and leg when he was trying to get to the bar? If so at which second on the video? I just honestly don't see where he pushed her.

 

[Limeincoke]

bigbox has clearly never, ever been to a crowded bar where incidental contact will happen any time you're getting a drink. It must suck not to have any friends that like to be social. Sorry for your life

 

[suhnami]

Did he push her before she stuck out her left hip and leg when he was trying to get to the bar? If so at which second on the video? I just honestly don't see where he pushed her.

No one does, it didn't happen.

 

[Tyante]

It's battery, not assault that you are describing. And in any event, you are wrong. A person has a legal right to respond to a reasonably perceived threat with a equivalent, measured response. Her clenched fist and aggressive stance allowed Johnson to respond, and his simply grabbing her arm would almost certainly be considered an equivalent, measured response. That it was a reasonable response to a perceived threat would be further supported by the fact she took a swing at him and kneed him after that. So until he struck her there was no battery on his part.

You're right, it is battery. He grabbed her arm and held it close to her neck. She was then using self defense to try and get him to let go. Notice how he runs away right after he punches her? He knows he was wrong to do that. Self defense laws talk about using justifiable force. He is there holding her dominant arm and she throws a jab with her weak hand. His punch was not justifiable. It was excessive no matter how you look at it.

 

[suhnami]

You're right, it is battery. He grabbed her arm and held it close to her neck. She was then using self defense to try and get him to let go. Notice how he runs away right after he punches her? He knows he was wrong to do that. Self defense laws talk about using justifiable force. He is there holding her dominant arm and she throws a jab with her weak hand. His punch was not justifiable. It was excessive no matter how you look at it.

He only grabbed her arm after she raised her fist at him... kind of a key point you're leaving out, AGAIN. I'm beginning to see a pattern with your posts.

 

[Tyante]

He only grabbed her arm after she raised her fist at him... kind of a key point you're leaving out, AGAIN. I'm beginning to see a pattern with your posts.

He did raise a fist. Do you really believe someone making a fist with their hand next to their head is really threatening? If she does throw a punch from that position, it will have no force behind it. He did not need to grab her. He could have easily avoided all this by just walking away. I'm not saying she did nothing here, but he elevated the situation to become violent.

 

[HuskerO]

You're right, it is battery. He grabbed her arm and held it close to her neck. She was then using self defense to try and get him to let go. Notice how he runs away right after he punches her? He knows he was wrong to do that. Self defense laws talk about using justifiable force. He is there holding her dominant arm and she throws a jab with her weak hand. His punch was not justifiable. It was excessive no matter how you look at it.

Nobody is saying that it was okay for JD to punch that girl. What people are saying is that she was the instigater and should be charged with assault and/or battery as well.

 

[bigboxes]

bigbox has clearly never, ever been to a crowded bar where incidental contact will happen any time you're getting a drink. It must suck not to have any friends that like to be social. Sorry for your life

So, you're saying that I don't know what it's like to be in a crowded bar? Or else I'd understand the dynamics of bar life and working your way to the bar. Maybe you got your PhD in the study of such things. Not really understanding the personal jabs. I just have a differing opinion on the topic. Just as valid as yours. I've been in many crowded bars throughout my life all around the world and I know what turns Mr. Hand into Mr. Fist. It would be fun to discuss bar stories with you sometime, I'm sure.

 

[HuskerBlueDevil]

He did raise a fist. Do you really believe someone making a fist with their hand next to their head is really threatening? If she does throw a punch from that position, it will have no force behind it. He did not need to grab her. He could have easily avoided all this by just walking away. I'm not saying she did nothing here, but he elevated the situation to become violent.

It's so cute when people who know nothing of the law try to make legal judgments. The law doesn't require people to make instantaneous judgments about possible force based on weight, angles and vectors. The only question is whether a reasonable person would have thought that there was a good chance that the woman intended "batter" him (as in the legal term "batter"). A battery is defined as an unlawful "touching". And you can use reasonable proportional force against an apparently imminent battery, i.e. an unlawful touching. The law doesn't require that the possible victim make a judgment of "oh, this person probably can't hit me hard enough to put me in the hospital." As others have cogently pointed out, if this had been two guys, there is little question that the "guy" who swung at Johnson would have been charged with battery. As for the "he could have easily walked away" again, you are confusing a moral judgment with a legal one. The criminal law in most states used to require someone to walk away, if a reasonable opportunity presented itself, before using force in self defense. But even those laws usually only applied to use of lethal force in self defense. However, the trend has become to not require the "victim" to walk away before using any form of self-defense, even in instances of using lethal force. Thus, the so called "stand your ground" laws.

Nobody is saying that it was okay for JD to punch that girl. What people are saying is that she was the instigater and should be charged with assault and/or battery as well.

This. From a moral standpoint, no question he should have just laughed and walked away. However, the legal position is far less clear. I'm sure this will plead out, but were I the defense attorney, I would argue that even his last punch was a proportional response. You are allowed to escalate your defensive response if he initial response doesn't eliminate the danger. I would then argue that this wasn't a Ray Rice, knock her out, punch, which Johnson, as an good-sized athlete could have delivered had he wanted to. And I would want to try this case to a judge rather than a jury, to eliminate the "oh, she's just a girl" moral judgments. Yeah, that defense probably would not fly, even to a judge, so that's why I anticipate this pleading out.

 

[SLOHusker]

He did raise a fist. Do you really believe someone making a fist with their hand next to their head is really threatening? If she does throw a punch from that position, it will have no force behind it. He did not need to grab her. He could have easily avoided all this by just walking away. I'm not saying she did nothing here, but he elevated the situation to become violent.

Making a fist with your arm back in a cocked position is much more threatening because you can PUNCH from that position. If she had her arm extended to keep him back I would agree, but with her fist raised by her body she was ready to strike.

 

[Tyante]

It's so cute when people who know nothing of the law try to make legal judgments. The law doesn't require people to make instantaneous judgments about possible force based on weight, angles and vectors. The only question is whether a reasonable person would have thought that there was a good chance that the woman intended "batter" him (as in the legal term "batter"). A battery is defined as an unlawful "touching". And you can use reasonable proportional force against an apparently imminent battery, i.e. an unlawful touching. The law doesn't require that the possible victim make a judgment of "oh, this person probably can't hit me hard enough to put me in the hospital." As others have cogently pointed out, if this had been two guys, there is little question that the "guy" who swung at Johnson would have been charged with battery. As for the "he could have easily walked away" again, you are confusing a moral judgment with a legal one. The criminal law in most states used to require someone to walk away, if a reasonable opportunity presented itself, before using force in self defense. But even those laws usually only applied to use of lethal force in self defense. However, the trend has become to not require the "victim" to walk away before using any form of self-defense, even in instances of using lethal force. Thus, the so called "stand your ground" laws.



This. From a moral standpoint, no question he should have just laughed and walked away. However, the legal position is far less clear. I'm sure this will plead out, but were I the defense attorney, I would argue that even his last punch was a proportional response. You are allowed to escalate your defensive response if he initial response doesn't eliminate the danger. I would then argue that this wasn't a Ray Rice, knock her out, punch, which Johnson, as an good-sized athlete could have delivered had he wanted to. And I would want to try this case to a judge rather than a jury, to eliminate the "oh, she's just a girl" moral judgments. Yeah, that defense probably would not fly, even to a judge, so that's why I anticipate this pleading out.

In all the Florida self defense laws I've looked up, they use the word "reasonable" force.

In Florida, self-defense is a type of affirmative defense used to avoid the legal effect of an otherwise unlawful violent act. A self-defense claim acknowledges that a violent act occurred, but excuses the act on grounds that it was reasonably necessary to repel another person’s imminent use of unlawful force.

My argument above is that he used excessive force for the situation. It was not reasonable force. Of course this is my opinion from watching the video. A judge or jury will decide this in court.

 

[HuskerBlueDevil]

In all the Florida self defense laws I've looked up, they use the word "reasonable" force.


My argument above is that he used excessive force for the situation. It was not reasonable force. Of course this is my opinion from watching the video. A judge or jury will decide this in court.

Once again, the law does not require a detailed analysis of exactly the amount of mass X velocity + possible effect be done by the person using self defense. The law understands that a decision has to be made pretty much instantaneously. A single punch in response to a punch and a knee in the groin (according to Johnson's attorney) is at least arguably reasonable. Unreasonable response usually requires continued attacks, such as knocking the initial attacker down and then continued punching and/or kicking.

 

[LBremser]

Once again, the law does not require a detailed analysis of exactly the amount of mass X velocity + possible effect be done by the person using self defense. The law understands that a decision has to be made pretty much instantaneously. A single punch in response to a punch and a knee in the groin (according to Johnson's attorney) is at least arguably reasonable. Unreasonable response usually requires continued attacks, such as knocking the initial attacker down and then continued punching and/or kicking.

I'm sure that, if this goes to trial, his attorney will be making these same arguments. He will probably plead to something like disorderly conduct, though, because if this goes to a jury he is done. Not only is the force used completely inappropriate for the situation, but it looks like he initiated the entire episode by wrapping his right arm around the left side of her waist, apparently to leverage her out of the way.

 

[suhnami]

HuskerBlueDevil, what are the jury rules? Do all of them have to agree?

 

[HuskerBlueDevil]

HuskerBlueDevil, what are the jury rules? Do all of them have to agree?

In a 12 juror panel you can have less than unanimous verdicts. A panel smaller than 12 (most often 6) must be unanimous. However, to the best of my knowledge only Louisiana and Oregon allow less than unanimous verdicts in criminal matters. I could find nothing in a quick search indicating that Florida had adopted a less than unanimous verdict requirement, but will do a more detailed search tonight and post if it turns out Florida allows it. Some states allow for less than unanimous verdicts in civil matters by rule and other states allow the parties in civil matters to stipulate to a less than unanimous verdict.

 

[Red Law]

You're right, it is battery. He grabbed her arm and held it close to her neck. She was then using self defense to try and get him to let go. Notice how he runs away right after he punches her? He knows he was wrong to do that. Self defense laws talk about using justifiable force. He is there holding her dominant arm and she throws a jab with her weak hand. His punch was not justifiable. It was excessive no matter how you look at it.

I think at least some of the confusion with the assault/battery distinction is that in Nebraska (not in Florida) a "common law battery" is legally referred to as an assault. A "common law assault" is merged into the same statute as the lowest level "common law battery" and is known as a Third Degree Assault. What would be considered aggravated battery in other states are First Degree and Second Degree Assaults in Nebraska. Most Nebraskans reading the newspapers etc. probably aren't exposed to the term battery or at least to its distinction from a common law assault.

 

[HuskerBlueDevil]

I think at least some of the confusion with the assault/battery distinction is that in Nebraska (not in Florida) a "common law battery" is legally referred to as an assault. A "common law assault" is merged into the same statute as the lowest level "common law battery" and is known as a Third Degree Assault. What would be considered aggravated battery in other states are First Degree and Second Degree Assaults in Nebraska. Most Nebraskans reading the newspapers etc. probably aren't exposed to the term battery or at least to its distinction from a common law assault.

Thanks, Red Law. That's interesting. And it explains why Lawrence Phillips was charged with Third Degree Assault in the Kate McEwen incident, rather than a form of battery.