Villanova/ N.C.State

scarletred

Nebraska Legend
Jun 17, 2001
34,142
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Two programs battling tonight to reach the sweet 16 that in my opinion had the 2 greatest upsets in the history of the NCAA National championship finals.

Villanova over Georgetown
N. C. State over Houston
 

jawatkins

Blackshirt
Feb 7, 2007
3,112
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Should be good most of the way. I expect 'Nova to pull away in the second half of the second half.
 

shine003

Offensive Coordinator
Feb 25, 2005
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Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:
Nova with another early exit. Big East! Big East!
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Only the ACC and PAC12 have had a good tournament. Everyone already knew the ACC was the best conference...PAC12 is the surprise. Big East can still get 3 in the sweet 16 if Georgetown comes back to beat Utah.
 

scarletred

Nebraska Legend
Jun 17, 2001
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Originally posted by shine003:

Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:
Nova with another early exit. Big East! Big East!
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Only the ACC and PAC12 have had a good tournament. Everyone already knew the ACC was the best conference...PAC12 is the surprise. Big East can still get 3 in the sweet 16 if Georgetown comes back to beat Utah.
Don't think Butler will beat ND either. So no too the 3 Big east teams.
 

schuele

Athletic Director
Apr 17, 2005
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I think the Big East is a pretty good league, but I thought Villanova was a soft #1 seed. Didn't see them going all that far.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

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Apr 21, 2006
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Butler will have a chance if they're allowed to grab the rim and pull it down when Notre Dame has a ball just come off the backboard on a layup.

How three refs missed that call, well, it doesn't surprise me.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 

scarletred

Nebraska Legend
Jun 17, 2001
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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Butler will have a chance if they're allowed to grab the rim and pull it down when Notre Dame has a ball just come off the backboard on a layup.

How three refs missed that call, well, it doesn't surprise me.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
You mean the 3 blind mice
 

schuele

Athletic Director
Apr 17, 2005
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The Oregon, Utah and Arizona wins don't surprise me. Utah and Arizona were top 10 teams for much of the year, and Oregon has come on strong lately. I don't think they'll beat the Badgers tomorrow, but Joseph Young might keep it interesting.

UCLA's wins aren't all that surprising either. SMU was overseeded at a #6 and the Bruins caught a big break when Iowa State lost. You usually don't get to the Sweet 16 by taking out SMU and UAB.

I like PAC-12 hoops and it's a pretty good league, but their 7-0 record in the tournament is a little deceiving.
 

Mr.Scary13

Junior
Dec 7, 2014
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Originally posted by shine003:


Originally posted by huskerbaseball13:
Nova with another early exit. Big East! Big East!

Posted from Rivals Mobile
Only the ACC and PAC12 have had a good tournament. Everyone already knew the ACC was the best conference...PAC12 is the surprise. Big East can still get 3 in the sweet 16 if Georgetown comes back to beat Utah.
ESPN never got the memo.... they pounded the Big 12 drum all year.
 

cornhead1

Junior
Sep 13, 2007
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ESPN famous for locking up

Once they get the "permanent pucker" locked in there is no wavering by ESPN.

Established Sports Propaganda Network
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Butler will have a chance if they're allowed to grab the rim and pull it down when Notre Dame has a ball just come off the backboard on a layup.

How three refs missed that call, well, it doesn't surprise me.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Tim, quick question. Can you describe the play for me? I am curious about it but I didn't see it and I'm having trouble with a quick search to find the play.

The reason I ask is because if the ball was not on the rim when the rim was pulled down or if the ball did not come into contact with the rim before the rim rebounded to its normal position, then there isn't a call to make on the play.

If the ball was contacted by the moving rim, though, then you would have basket interference. it's normally pretty clear, though, because the rim rebounds with so much force that it usually launches the ball.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

Nebraska Legend
Apr 21, 2006
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ND player was attempting a layup and while the ball was coming off the glass, the Butler player pulled the rim down. And I mean, he literally pulled it down as far as it could go.



Tried getting the wide shot from around halfcourt which was the better angle, fat fingers struck again.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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haha I appreciate it. Solid work on the mobile device.

So, as long as the ball hasn't contacted the rim, and the officials deem the pull on the rim to be something of the non-unsportsmanlike variety, there isn't a violation. I know you can't really post a video here, and I'm not saying you're right or wrong, because I didn't see the play. But as long as the rim returns to its original position prior to the ball coming into contact with it, then its a play on. I can grab the rule for you if you're interested.

I'm not trying to be incite anything, just helping with the rules. There are some crazy plays that happen from time to time that look like they must be something, when, in actuality, there isn't a call to be made. This could have been one of those plays. If the ball touched the rim before it returned to its original position, though, then there should have been a BI call made.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

Nebraska Legend
Apr 21, 2006
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Since when are you allowed to pull the rim down when the ball is above the cylinder? If accurate, and there's little doubt not to believe you, I can't imagine coaches not taking advantage of it. The defense could do this on about every play in the game.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 

HuskerTimOmaha

Nebraska Legend
Apr 21, 2006
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I captured it during the next timeout. I knew if I posted about it, you'd ask questions and I was more than pissed when I hit the "previous" button switching channels. The other angle was more clearer. But anyways, you've been pretty active on the topic so what the heck, took a couple pictures.

Here's another, with 4 tenths of a second left, no foul called. I ended up hitting the unders but the no foul cost me a chance with small 5 teamer, last game of the day, ND was -4. Butler player grabbing a guy with the ball, right in front of the ref.



If you can find the RI/Stanford game from last night, go check out the video when RI was called for an intentional foul. 20 or so feet from the ball, RI grabs a Stanford player (2-8 from the line at the time) to send him to the line. Ref calls an intentional then Hurley goes nuts. Good entertainment, can't believe he wasn't T'd up after that.
Posted from Rivals Mobile

This post was edited on 3/23 4:30 PM by HuskerTimOmaha
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Since when are you allowed to pull the rim down when the ball is above the cylinder? If accurate, and there's little doubt not to believe you, I can't imagine coaches not taking advantage of it. The defense could do this on about every play in the game.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I don't know how well this will post. If it looks like crap, I apologize. I had to use the bullets and I'm not sure I did it correctly.

The thing is, it has to be a legitimate basketball move or play. If the player's sole purpose of grabbing the rim is to mess with the basket and the attempted shot, then the player should be assessed a Class A unsportsmanlike conduct technical foul. The rule is meant to prevent BI from being called when there was no intent to disrupt the try for goal (if it did disrupt the try, then the try would be scored anyway) AND the grabbing of the rim did not disrupt the try for goal. When defenders or offensive players are close to the hoop and high in the air, sometimes the rim or backboard is contacted. When it doesn't impact the ball's path to the hoop, then there is not a reason to call basket interference.

Here is the entire BI rule. #4 is the part of the BI rule that applies to this situation. As long as the ball's path was not affected by the rim being grabbed/pulled, then there is no violation. #5 was added this year to prevent the play where, in years past, a legitimate block attempt would result in a slap of the backboard that would shake the backboard/rim and cause the try to be no good. before 2014-15, a legitimate block attempt causing the backboard to move and disrupt the ball's path was not considered basket interference. Now it is, which is the right way to do it, IMO. It make for some tough explanations to coaches when a ball would be coming off the backboard and the defender's block attempt missed the ball but contacted the backboard violently, resulting in the backboard and rim to shake, and thus the ball to fall off the rim or out of the cylinder. Now we can just count the bucket.
Section 17. Basket Interference and GoaltendingArt. 1. It is a violation to commit basket interference or goaltending.Art. 2. - a. It is basket intereference when player:Touches the ball or any part of the basket while the ball is on or within
the basket;Touches the ball while any part of it is within the cylinder that has the
ring as its lower base;Reaches through the basket from below and touches the ball before it
enters the cylinder; orPulls down a movable ring so that it contacts the ball before the ring
returns to its original position
Causes the basket or backboard to vibrate when the ball is on or within
the basket or the backboard and/or is on or in the cylinder. b. The cylinder is the imaginary geometric figure that has the ring as its base
and is formed by the upward extension of that ring. c. The ball shall be considered to be within the basket when any part of the ball
is below the cylinder and the level of the ring. d. A player may have a hand legally in contact with the ball, when this contact
continues after the ball enters the cylinder or when, during such action, the
player touches or grabs the basket.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

Nebraska Legend
Apr 21, 2006
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Unless I'm not getting it, the rules seem to support BI, based on....

Touches the ball or any part of the basket while the ball is on or within
the basket;

Touches the ball while any part of it is within the cylinder that has the
ring as its lower base;

Causes the basket or backboard to vibrate when the ball is on or within
the basket or the backboard and/or is on or in the cylinder.

******

I can't remember but I don't think the ball ever touched the rim which is why I removed that rule out of the response. Quite obvious the above three qualify this as a missed call. A badly missed call at a crucial point in the game.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
I captured it during the next timeout. I knew if I posted about it, you'd ask questions and I was more than pissed when I hit the "previous" button switching channels. The other angle was more clearer. But anyways, you've been pretty active on the topic so what the heck, took a couple pictures.

Here's another, with 4 tenths of a second left, no foul called. I ended up hitting the unders but the no foul cost me a chance with small 5 teamer, last game of the day, ND was -4. Butler player grabbing a guy with the ball, right in front of the ref.

If you can find the RI/Stanford game from last night, go check out the video when RI was called for an intentional foul. 20 or so feet from the ball, RI grabs a Stanford player (2-8 from the line at the time) to send him to the line. Ref calls an intentional then Hurley goes nuts. Good entertainment, can't believe he wasn't T'd up after that.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
This post was edited on 3/23 4:30 PM by HuskerTimOmaha
haha! I'm in your head now!
j/k You were ready for me, though! I try not to argue judgement calls that people bring up on here for the obvious reason that judgement us up to the individual, the angle they had on the play. All contact is not a foul, and it takes judgment to determine if the consequence of the action/contact resulted in a foul. We could get into the 3 types of contact, and all of that, but I'm not sure anyone really cares that much.

What was the situation with the picture? Was the pass inbounded or was posession gained via rebound? If it was inbounded by ND, how much time was on the clock when the inbound pass occurred? If it was a rebound, how much time was on the clock at the time of the free throw attempt or at the time of the rebound of the missed shot?

I'll see what I can find on the RI/Stanford game.
 

HuskerTimOmaha

Nebraska Legend
Apr 21, 2006
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I don't recall the time, ND inbounded the ball after a Butler player dunked it for no reason (ha!). I know not all contact is a foul, the picture shared was the initial (obvious) contact and a split second later was full bear hit mode with 3 tenths of a second remaining. So many times that call is made, and very few times it's not. Again, it goes back to the inconsistency of calls throughout the game. Heck, in football at least it's known holding will rarely be called unless you tackle someone.

The sad part is, the first weekend of game is suppose to have the top 100 officials from the season. At least that's what was repeated during multiple broadcasts. If that's truly the case, well, I don't think a comment is worth it. ;)
Posted from Rivals Mobile
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
I can't get the bear hug picture to post, I saved it as a video somehow and it's not allowing me to do what's needed. Technically challenged, I know.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
So, the Butler player bear hugged the ND player and then time expired without a call? I can see your point then.
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:

The sad part is, the first weekend of game is suppose to have the top 100 officials from the season. At least that's what was repeated during multiple broadcasts. If that's truly the case, well, I don't think a comment is worth it. ;)
Posted from Rivals Mobile
I hear you. I know some calls were missed throughout the games I watched. I did see a fair amount of things get called or ignored that analysts or fines were griping about that were actually correctly enforced or call, for what it's worth.

All fans and most coaches expect the officials to be perfect, that's sort of the expectation you have to live up to when you get to any level of D1 or the college level in general. Players, coaches, and fans deserve well-officiated games. But the expectation of perfection is unrealistic. There hasn't been a perfect game played, coached, or refereed ever, and there probably never will be. But if any referee doesn't want to deal with the expectation, they can quit any time they want. It will continue to be the expectation, and officials will continue to make mistakes, and they'll continue to be criticized for them. It comes with the territory. I will say that perhaps judgement calls were missed or not call or called when they should not have been, but the top 100 officials that you refer to, by and large know the rule book inside and out. They might miss contact or misjudge contact, or anticipate contact that never occurs, but rarely (not never) do they misapply a rule.

With respect to consistent play calling - I've always been trained at the higher levels to see how the players want to play that night. Are they going to play through contact and be okay, are they going to be smart about their own contact and body positions. If so, then my training tells me to let them develop their own flow. The players want to play, the coaches want to coach, and the fans want to see the players play. But there is that line you have to walk between what they can play through and what they can't play through. If teams start getting stupid and stop playing relatively clean, then you have to tighten the play calling up and start whistling more fouls to prevent things from escalating. It's a tough line to walk, and sometimes you make mistakes in walking that line. You probably realize all of this, I'm just trying to explain how you can have few whistles in the first half, the officials might talk at halftime and say, "look #34 and #45 are going at it pretty hard and we need to tighten things up. They're more interested in knocking people down then they are in playing basketball," then they'll come out of halftime, and they'll give a much shorter leash to a few players because they're starting to cause problems or instigate things. Sort of like that knucklehead from Cincinnati yesterday.

One thing that makes me shake my head, though, is a guy like Doug Gottlieb, who THINKS he knows what he's talking about with respect to the rules and officiating, and he makes mistakes about the rules in his critcism and it never gets brought to the attention of the audience. I saw at least two instances watching games this weekend where he had the rule wrong, and he criticized the officials for "missing" the call. He knows his share of rules, but he's easily the college basketball analyst (along with Bilas) who is most critical of officiating, and he doesn't necessarily understand the philosophy as well as he thinks he does.

That got long. Bottom line, I don't disagree, there is room for improvement in consistency among all college officials.
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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Originally posted by HuskerTimOmaha:
Unless I'm not getting it, the rules seem to support BI, based on....

1) Touches the ball or any part of the basket while the ball is on or within
the basket;

2) Touches the ball while any part of it is within the cylinder that has the
ring as its lower base;

3) Causes the basket or backboard to vibrate when the ball is on or within
the basket or the backboard and/or is on or in the cylinder.

******

I can't remember but I don't think the ball ever touched the rim which is why I removed that rule out of the response. Quite obvious the above three qualify this as a missed call. A badly missed call at a crucial point in the game.
Posted from Rivals Mobile
Very well could have been a missed call, in which case you are correct. I didn't see the play, and the only thing I saw in the screen shot was the ball being around the rim/backboard. I didn't see you reference where the ball was touched. Did the player hanging on the rim touch the ball? I just thought you said the guy was hanging on the rim during a shot attempt. I could have mis-read the post, we both know it wouldn't be the first time...


Couple of things (I numbered the rules up above to make it easier to follow):
1) If the ball is not on/within the basket (in other words, ball on the ring or any part of the ball below the ring) then #1 does not apply
2) If the ball was not touched by the player, then #2 does not apply
3) the ball either must be in contact with the backboard, on the ring, in the basket, or in the cylinder when the basket or backboard is vibrating. If the if the backboard, ring, basket, etc vibrate but the vibration does not affect the try for goal, then a BI violation did not occur.
 

shine003

Offensive Coordinator
Feb 25, 2005
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I've been pretty disappointed with the officiating this NCAA tournament, but last's nights game between Maryland and West Virginia took it to a whole new level of terrible. I was happy Gottlieb was the announcer for that one as well, because he wasn't afraid to speak his mind on it. It was an all out brawl and an embarrassment to the game of basketball.
 

Charlie Marlow

Assistant Head Coach
Sep 23, 2005
9,885
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In Your Head
It's Bobby Thuggins style of defense. Non stop hacking the entire game and yell at the refs and hope that they get tired of calling everything and let a bunch of the crap slide. It is a disgrace to the game of basketball, but if it works, then why not?
 

GBR ASAP

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Feb 9, 2015
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NBA disclosing play calling evaluations

I'm curious if anyone else saw this. I like the idea, I wish the NCAA would follow suit. In my opinion, it gives the officials a stronger leg to stand on when coaches want to argue calls. This is good for the game. This will be interesting to follow.


http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2015/02/27/referees-grades-of-calls-in-close-games-will-be-disclosed/24074799/
 

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