Vaccine Progress

Nov 14, 2005
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The government itself wouldn't be able to do much, but private businesses can do whatever they want in this regard.

Not entirely true. In 1905 the US Supreme Court decided Jacobson v Massachusetts, which found that the states have the Constitutional right to establish compulsory vaccination laws in times of health emergencies. In Jacobson, the respondent challenged a law that required everyone in a community or county where there was a smallpox outbreak to be vaccinated. The SCt held that the states' powers to protect public health outweigh the individual right to refuse vaccination. Jacobson has not been significantly challenged and remains good law to this date. So it seems likely that if a state mandated that everyone in the state, or at least everyone in a covid hotspot, be vaccinated, there would be no real legal recourse.
 

RedCap

Nebraska Legend
Sep 29, 2001
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Yep! I think even if the best candidate developed were to make it to the public (I think the Oxford vaccine trials are looking to be the best?) it would be in 2021 sometime. Not only do they have to test a bunch, but then they have to manufacture hundreds of millions of these things.
Well maybe they're lying, I don't know, but more than one vaccine candidate claims they will have a substantial number of doses ready before the end of the year. Might have to throw them all away if the vaccine bombs but they say they'll be ready to go if it works.

In part, I think it also depends on the situation toward the end of the year. Should the virus be really raging at the time, I could see pressure for emergency approval of vaccine for those who want it on a voluntary basis. After all they're already vaccinating actual people for the trials. This Coronavirus situation is unprecedented in our lifetime. Never has the global economy been shut down like this before so I don't think the recent historical situations necessarily apply.
 

Charlie Marlow

Assistant Head Coach
Sep 23, 2005
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In Your Head
Some companies are already starting to mass produce now just in case it works out, they can hit the ground running. Normally you don’t do that because of the financial risk. But part of operation Warp Speed is that the US government would cover a good chunk of those losses.
 
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dinglefritz

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Jan 14, 2011
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Some companies are already starting to mass produce now just in case it works out, they can hit the ground running. Normally you don’t do that because of the financial risk. But part of operation Warp Speed is that the US government would cover a good chunk of those losses.
exactly correct. One company alone will supposedly have over 100 million doses ready early in January. The logistics of distribution and administration could be interesting to say the least.
 

dinglefritz

Nebraska Legend
Jan 14, 2011
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this is why the Merck CEO maker of a lot of the childhood vaccines in the world came out and said the media and some of these early candidate companies are doing the american citizens a disservice by pumping optimistic headlines all the time. despite what the media says there are a lot of things that can still go wrong which means something probably will. thats why there are so many companies and candidates. i think the smart companies know there will be issues come along. its not going to be the first to market to win. its going to be the best to market. the best one might not be until early 2022
We're in a situation where you use the first to market NOW and worry about using something better IF it comes along. Make no mistake, multinational Merck is more worried about their bottom line than American citizens. I don't believe his statements are altruistic.

Generally speaking if you're trying to make a vaccine such that you can give one dose for initial immunization, you're using stronger adjuvants to do that. That's not necessarily a good thing and can lead to more unfavorable reactions. Personally, I would feel pretty comfortable with a subunit Corona virus vaccine protecting me with just one dose.
 

jlb321

Defensive Coordinator
Aug 8, 2014
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When it is private enterprise driving this process there are no incentives - in fact there are disincentives - for different teams to collaborate by sharing advances and setbacks with the goal of getting things right in the quickest amount of time.
 

dinglefritz

Nebraska Legend
Jan 14, 2011
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Regardless of your point of view, this is an interesting article on the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine candidate. Warning: It is a very long article and contains background on Sarah Gilbert, the name behind this vaccine development.

Article

As an aside, I found it fascinating that one possibility is that the people vaccinated with this vaccine could still get Covid 19 but not suffer any of the ill effects. They could however still infect others who have not been vaccinated who could then suffer the ill effects. It's only a possibility so definitely NOT a certainty at this point. Just never read about that possibility before. I'd guess it's kind of like the asymptomatic cases now.
The likelihood of a vaccinated person becoming infected, not becoming ill, then being able to shed virus to others is extremely low. So far the vaccine trials look very good with 100% of the trial subjects producing blocking antibodies. It's much harder to measure cell mediated immunity (T cells). Now as with any vaccine that may not be enough to completely protect you months later from an overwhelming exposure or IF you're for some reason immunosuppressed at the time of your exposure. No vaccine is 100%. A vaccine doesn't necessarily prevent you from getting infected. It's supposed to help prevent you from becoming viremic.
 

dinglefritz

Nebraska Legend
Jan 14, 2011
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When it is private enterprise driving this process there are no incentives - in fact there are disincentives - for different teams to collaborate by sharing advances and setbacks with the goal of getting things right in the quickest amount of time.
On the other hand group think might end up meaning nobody arrives at the correct conclusion.
 
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Nebraska_Reality

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Oct 23, 2019
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who is going to take this vaccine?
i have neighbors that wont take vaccines as it is, because vaccines are a conspiracy to control world population, but simultaneously tout hydroxychloriquine as the covid wonder cure.
id add they ‘multi-level market’ some bullsh1t magic health water.
great people, but they are not alone.
You should yell your kook neighbors that if they're so concerned, they should also dump their cell phones, end all of their social media accounts, and pay cash for everything.
 
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tpmcg

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Mar 25, 2002
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You should yell your kook neighbors that if they're so concerned, they should also dump their cell phones, end all of their social media accounts, and pay cash for everything.
i feel bad for quasi-outing them...its unappealing.
 

bingo65

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Jun 18, 2020
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I'm not sure where you get the 10 years idea that you keep repeating. This is not something new. The increased capabilities of scientists to map genetic material makes this possible. Subunit vaccines like this are EXTREMELY safe. We've been doing this for animal Corona viruses for a couple of decades and longer than that for some whole virus Corona virus vaccines for animals.

The only concern I would have about it would be some type of immune reaction syndrome but I don't believe that is likely at all from a subunit vaccine. I would take it tomorrow IF they would let me. I'll be in the 10X level antigen group please.
they've already reported small number of hyper immune responses with the moderna v
We're in a situation where you use the first to market NOW and worry about using something better IF it comes along. Make no mistake, multinational Merck is more worried about their bottom line than American citizens. I don't believe his statements are altruistic.

Generally speaking if you're trying to make a vaccine such that you can give one dose for initial immunization, you're using stronger adjuvants to do that. That's not necessarily a good thing and can lead to more unfavorable reactions. Personally, I would feel pretty comfortable with a subunit Corona virus vaccine protecting me with just one dose.
what does multinational have to do with anything? every drug company is multinational. why would you accept the statements from any drug company if you dont accept the statements from Merck? you can think whatever you want about which vaccine strategy is the best for efficacy and safety but you will not know until all the studies are done. maybe the first one will work fantastic with little or no side effects. that would be great. but a vaccine with that technology has never been approved. doesn't mean it won't work. but it does mean we know less about it.
 

RedMyMind

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Aug 22, 2017
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So, you have had vaccines that not only worked (just more than 12 years ago), and from which you had no adverse reactions then, correct?
no. I've tracked my vaccination dates and they all coincide with adverse reactions shortly thereafter. I didn't realize that until the last one I got as an adult.
 

GBRforLife1

Senior
Feb 18, 2020
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what if insurance companies decide that no vaccination = big upcharge in your insurance premiums - similar to smoking
I believe some employers can mandate vaccination

people might be free not to get vaccinated - but freedom isn't necessarily free

What if the Thought Police monitor your Telescreen and decide you need to be re-educated?
 

Suhrreal

Recruiting Coordinator
Jun 1, 2009
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The "crap" crammed in to this vaccine will only be the same "crap" crammed in to the seasonal flu vaccine. The only difference will be the protein subunit antigens. This will be safe. I've taken the high dose influenza vaccine now for years with no ill effects. This will be no different. IF I had taken flu vaccines earlier in my life I maybe wouldn't be dealing with chronic asthma caused largely by a nasty bout of pneumonia caused by influenza 20 years ago.

If it's "safe" and such a coveted vaccine, you would think Moderna's CEO and other executives would stop dumping shares of their company at such a prodigious rate. With the vaccine industry being so lucrative and all.
 
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RedMyMind

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Aug 22, 2017
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what if insurance companies decide that no vaccination = big upcharge in your insurance premiums - similar to smoking
I believe some employers can mandate vaccination

people might be free not to get vaccinated - but freedom isn't necessarily free
fast food/soda is worse than smoking these days
 

GBRforLife1

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Feb 18, 2020
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The idea that some are advocating for more lockdowns after the absolute catastrophe they were is unconscionable.

You're willing to trade lives that lockdowns kill - kill those who would otherwise live, and then act like you're some morally superior elite. Disgusting.

The answer has always been protect the elderly and ill and let the rest of America go about their lives. Anything else is nefariously authoritarian and un-American.
 

Antwill

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Dec 18, 2004
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no. I've tracked my vaccination dates and they all coincide with adverse reactions shortly thereafter. I didn't realize that until the last one I got as an adult.

C'mon! You didn't have a bad reaction to those previous vaccines or the last one you took either. All just a coincidence as are the hundreds of thousands of other people who have reported such reactions. Regardless, take one for the team. Yes, you may have adverse effects such as the ones that are printed on the warning labels of vaccines (including death) but that's no reason not to get with the program! Quit being so selfish.

On that topic, vaccine immunity usually lasts 10 years at best. Some much shorter than that. Therefore those of you who are part of the 95% of the adult population who have not gotten their measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox, et. al. vaccines since you were a kid need to get your selfish butts into your doctor and get re-immunized! The drug comp.....I mean your fellow citizens will love you for it!
 

bingo65

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Jun 18, 2020
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The idea that some are advocating for more lockdowns after the absolute catastrophe they were is unconscionable.

You're willing to trade lives that lockdowns kill - kill those who would otherwise live, and then act like you're some morally superior elite. Disgusting.

The answer has always been protect the elderly and ill and let the rest of America go about their lives. Anything else is nefariously authoritarian and un-American.
the economy is trashed either way bro. the lockdowns did not do the damage. the virus did the damage. people's purchasing habits would be the same either way. the virus as it is now will wreak havoc on the economy whether or not we are in lockdown. you are very ill informed if you think everything would just go back to where it was if we would just want to. the virus is the problem. not our reaction. until it goes away the economy will suffer. neither parties response would have saved the economy
and you called the lockdowns a catastrophe without knowing what kind of catastrophe not locking down would have been. it might have been MUCH worse. so quit with your omnipotent attitude. you know nothing because its never happened before. no one could have known the right answer and no one knows the right answer now either.
 
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bingo65

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no. I've tracked my vaccination dates and they all coincide with adverse reactions shortly thereafter. I didn't realize that until the last one I got as an adult.
what were your adverse reactions? were they worse than getting an infectious disease several times? maybe a little side effect in the short term is well worth protection from something much more significant long term
 

Crazyhole

Senior
Jun 4, 2004
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the economy is trashed either way bro. the lockdowns did not do the damage. the virus did the damage. people's purchasing habits would be the same either way. the virus as it is now will wreak havoc on the economy whether or not we are in lockdown. you are very ill informed if you think everything would just go back to where it was if we would just want to. the virus is the problem. not our reaction. until it goes away the economy will suffer. neither parties response would have saved the economy
and you called the lockdowns a catastrophe without knowing what kind of catastrophe not locking down would have been. it might have been MUCH worse. so quit with your omnipotent attitude. you know nothing because its never happened before. no one could have known the right answer and no one knows the right answer now either.

So close. The virus didn't do the damage, over-leveraging and derivatives did the damage. The virus just pushed everything off of the tightrope. It could have been a nuclear bomb in Manhattan or another terrorist attack, but the outcome was inevitable.
 

bingo65

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Jun 18, 2020
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So close. The virus didn't do the damage, over-leveraging and derivatives did the damage. The virus just pushed everything off of the tightrope. It could have been a nuclear bomb in Manhattan or another terrorist attack, but the outcome was inevitable.
i disagree. over leverage/derivatives you can come up with whatever you didn't like or come up with nothing at all and the virus would have wrecked the economy with or without those factors. and it will continue to do so until it is gone
 

GBRforLife1

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Feb 18, 2020
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the economy is trashed either way bro. the lockdowns did not do the damage. the virus did the damage. people's purchasing habits would be the same either way. the virus as it is now will wreak havoc on the economy whether or not we are in lockdown. you are very ill informed if you think everything would just go back to where it was if we would just want to. the virus is the problem. not our reaction. until it goes away the economy will suffer. neither parties response would have saved the economy
and you called the lockdowns a catastrophe without knowing what kind of catastrophe not locking down would have been. it might have been MUCH worse. so quit with your omnipotent attitude. you know nothing because its never happened before. no one could have known the right answer and no one knows the right answer now either.

Sweden called, they say hi. Herd immunity works. Without lockdowns.
 
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GBRforLife1

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Feb 18, 2020
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So close. The virus didn't do the damage, over-leveraging and derivatives did the damage. The virus just pushed everything off of the tightrope. It could have been a nuclear bomb in Manhattan or another terrorist attack, but the outcome was inevitable.

I'd say you're both wrong. It was the panic and fear. Videos of a scary virus from China with hospitals full of people. A pandemic that comes with it's own slogans, how calming while the NY Governor screams for ventilators he doesn't need on TV every day.
 
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GBRforLife1

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Feb 18, 2020
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i disagree. over leverage/derivatives you can come up with whatever you didn't like or come up with nothing at all and the virus would have wrecked the economy with or without those factors. and it will continue to do so until it is gone

This may surprise you, but places that are open are doing fine economically. You should get out more and see it for yourself.
 
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Iroh2

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Nov 9, 2019
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Damage to the economy is way overstated... checked the Dow today and it looks solid... saying the economy is trashed is just fear mongering... crafted to fit a political narrative...
 

Iroh2

Walk On
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I saw people eating at a Chick-fil-A today which means the economy has no problems...
 

resdog851

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Dec 30, 2003
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Papillion, Nebraska
They're finding antibodies last the rest of your life.
I believe you lose the antibodies relatively quick, but the T-cells remember the sickness and send them out when it recognizes similar or same virus. That is why a ton of people have little or no symptoms. They have been exposed and sick with many other Covid/SARS virus over the years. The T-cells remember and adjust accordingly. It just makes more antibodies to go kill this new guy. Thats how I understand it. I ain't a doctor so I am probably way off.
 

RedMyMind

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what were your adverse reactions? were they worse than getting an infectious disease several times? maybe a little side effect in the short term is well worth protection from something much more significant long term
I was bed bound for a year with inflammation ravaging my entire body. Joints the size of cantaloupes, muscle pain, raynaud's, fatigue, anxiety, depression, skin issues, nightmares, digestive issues.

Fun stuff. I had to drop out of my college program, couldn't work and every day was hell.

I'll take my chances with Covid.
 
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