Soooo, Bruce Jenner is "courageous". I had no idea.

[litespeedhuskerfan]

I just thought he was kind of a big weirdo. Learned something new today.

You don't suppose ESPN would do something like that to generate interest/ratings do you??? Nah.

 

[rrthusker]

I just thought he was kind of a big weirdo. Learned something new today.

You don't suppose ESPN would do something like that to generate interest/ratings do you??? Nah.

I have nothing against the guy or what he does with his life. I always considered those that fought for our country as courageous. Learn something new every day.

 

[litespeedhuskerfan]

Stinks we have to say stuff like, "I have nothing against the guy or what he does with his life" so-as we are not considered the jerks in this scenario. I get what you're saying, I agree 100%, but I also think he's a huge freaking weirdo. That's OK, I have weirdo's I deal with every day, nothing new there. What I don't like is ESPN doing that just to generate interest/clicks/ratings. There were far more deserving people to choose from, and when they chose him, it just brings more attention to a weirdo who's seeking it.

 

[nebcountry]

I was raised to be tolerant of what others do, just so long as it doesn't impede my rights/liberties/etc. So, I couldn't care less what jenner does.

But to praise him, or his daughter, as heroes or as "courageous"? There are people that are actually quite a bit more deserving.

 

[CC_Lemming]

So is the point that it would not take courage to tell your friends, family, and acquaintances that you identify as a woman when they have known you all this time as a man?

What do you call that? A need for attention? A whimsy?

Some of you get your feathers ruffled over the smallest things, because you disapprove of the larger event or you don't understand it.

A good friend of mine I've known for more than 2 years recently told me he was a woman. The conversation was uncomfortable and it was plainly obvious that he was in a state of anxiety and uncertainty when he told me - would I still be his friend? Would I accept him? It does take courage to tell others you are someone they don't take you to be, to tell them you've been living a lie. The only way to make it seem like it doesn't take courage is to portray it as something it's not (e.g., a need for attention).

And I agree soldiers are courageous, and moreover, exemplars of courage. But one can be courageous simply in overcoming fear. Someone can fight cancer courageously. A child can courageously tell a bully to back-down. You don't have to be willing to take a bullet to be courageous. That makes you the most courageous.

 

[litespeedhuskerfan]

Your friend is wrong, he isn't a woman. If he wishes to act like one that's his business, but he's a man. DNA and such make it so. Also, all we are saying is (or at least mostly saying), is that there were far more deserving people and ESPN did the equivalent of a money grab by giving that award to a man pretending to be a woman. I will also add, it was a brilliant business decision, it will accomplish what they set out to do. Brilliant, but a little gross at the same time, when you consider the other people they had to choose from.

 

[HuskerO]

I always considered those that fought for our country as courageous. Learn something new every day.

Can't they both be courageous? Obviously not at the same level, but no one is saying that they (Jenner and military personnel) are.

 

[CC_Lemming]

I don't care about ESPN's motives or its role in this story. I'm not going to defend ESPN. I'm talking about whether or not coming out in this fashion takes courage, and it's quite obvious that it does. You are about 40 years behind the times with your first two statements.

See, there is this interesting fact about human beings. Unlike other animals we aren't determined by our biology. And human psychology and physiology can and frequently do come apart. I know some people still like to cover their ears and eyes and live in the stone age, pretending as if homosexuality is merely a choice and not a biological or psychological predisposition, and I can see that is clearly going on in this case. Jenner can't be a woman because he was born with a penis. Well, I guess Oscar Pistorius wasn't an Olympic sprinter because he only had one leg. And I guess your 2 year old son was already a man because he had a penis. Never mind that he knew nothing about what manhood entailed - his having a penis was sufficient.

I suggest you re-think the role of DNA in your story too.

 

[Limeincoke]

Meh. I'd say he's courageous. He's putting himself out there as the first real public transgender. The amount of hate and death threats and ridicule he's going to/has received in order to give a voice to a group that's extremely voiceless is a pretty strong thing to do.

 

[litespeedhuskerfan]

Well now you're representing your personal opinion as a fact and taking the stance your opinion is more valuable than mine and have deemed me wrong in something that I couldn't disagree with more. DNA and chromosomes do make it so, which make you wrong on this issue. Having said all that, I am glad you are there for your friend to support him. Sounds like he needs it right now, so it's good he has you in his life at this difficult time.

 

[sparky62]

Personally I think there are other people that are more deserving of this award.

 

[Hawkeye_311]

Marines are courageous, this guy is just weird.

 

[Tulsa Tom]

I know missionaries who went without weapons into war-torn areas...some in Iraq and some in South America. Some were captured...some were killed...and a few made it out of those places alive. (Some have even stayed working in cities that fell to ISIS.) Wouldn't unarmed people seeking to spread the gospel in these settings be more courageous than a soldier with weapons?

***The point is that there are all types of courage.

 

[newAD]

Giving HIM the Arthur Ash Award for Courage, is an insult to Arthur Ash!

 

[Huskerlife39]

I don't care about ESPN's motives or its role in this story. I'm not going to defend ESPN. I'm talking about whether or not coming out in this fashion takes courage, and it's quite obvious that it does. You are about 40 years behind the times with your first two statements.

See, there is this interesting fact about human beings. Unlike other animals we aren't determined by our biology. And human psychology and physiology can and frequently do come apart. I know some people still like to cover their ears and eyes and live in the stone age, pretending as if homosexuality is merely a choice and not a biological or psychological predisposition, and I can see that is clearly going on in this case. Jenner can't be a woman because he was born with a penis. Well, I guess Oscar Pistorius wasn't an Olympic sprinter because he only had one leg. And I guess your 2 year old son was already a man because he had a penis. Never mind that he knew nothing about what manhood entailed - his having a penis was sufficient.

I suggest you re-think the role of DNA in your story too.

Not looking to pick a fight but your comparison of Jenner to Pistorius is simply ridiculous. Jenner is a nut job who's DNA says he is a male. Pistorius is a handicapped man who overcame his handicap to compete. Unless your somehow implying that Jenner has a handicap then the comparison doesn't work.

For the record, In my opinion, Jenner is in NO way a hero.

 

[hamneggs53]

I just thought he was kind of a big weirdo. Learned something new today.

You don't suppose ESPN would do something like that to generate interest/ratings do you??? Nah.

Try lopping off your package....ultimate courage! Yikes.

 

[jlb321]

Lite - I thought you were going to refer to him as "cougaragous"

 

[N-sane]

Try lopping off your package....ultimate courage! Yikes.

I know someone will correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't he/she say that the penis would NOT be coming off. That's what I thought anyway....

 

[huskerfan1000]

If Jenner was truly courageous he would have put as much distance between him and that Kardashian clan as humanly possible.

 

[CC_Lemming]

Well now you're representing your personal opinion as a fact and taking the stance your opinion is more valuable than mine and have deemed me wrong in something that I couldn't disagree with more. DNA and chromosomes do make it so, which make you wrong on this issue. Having said all that, I am glad you are there for your friend to support him. Sounds like he needs it right now, so it's good he has you in his life at this difficult time.

No. I did not claim my opinion is more valuable than yours, though that is what I think, because I think it is more informed. And I say that hesitantly, because there is a lot about Gender Dysphoria I don't understand and won't pretend to understand. I know the psychologists aren't on your side, and that's enough for me. In any case, you have not shown, nor provided any argument, to suggest that DNA and chromosomes have no influence in one being a transsexual. Your position suggests that these are binary influences, they either make one completely a male or completely a female, as evidenced by the appearance of the relevant genitalia. I suggested you might want to re-think that, because that position is woefully inadequate. Most obviously, some people are born with no clear or discernible genitalia at all. How was their sex determined by their DNA and chromosomes? I provide some evidence for you to consider, both of which argue that biology plays a significant role in Gender Dysphoria.

1) http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu3.htm
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

*Edited* My first paragraph was unclear the first time around. Sorry about that.

 

[CC_Lemming]

Not looking to pick a fight but your comparison of Jenner to Pistorius is simply ridiculous. Jenner is a nut job who's DNA says he is a male. Pistorius is a handicapped man who overcame his handicap to compete. Unless your somehow implying that Jenner has a handicap then the comparison doesn't work.

For the record, In my opinion, Jenner is in NO way a hero.

The comparison was apt because the implication of litespeed's position is that biology determines who we are. If you're born with a penis, then you're a man. Well Pistorious was a guy without a leg, hence he couldn't run. Yet he was an Olympian sprinter. Why? Because human beings are not fully determined by their biology. The view is utterly ridiculous.

 

[Cornicator]

Real question here:

Do you guys think Caitlyn could win Gold in the Women's Decathalon at the next Olympic Games?

 

[CC_Lemming]

Real question here:

Do you guys think Caitlyn could win Gold in the Women's Decathalon at the next Olympic Games?

No. She's too old .

I say this as a former college distance runner who routinely gets his ass kicked by fast ladies at races now.

 

[N-sane]

I don't care about ESPN's motives or its role in this story. I'm not going to defend ESPN. I'm talking about whether or not coming out in this fashion takes courage, and it's quite obvious that it does. You are about 40 years behind the times with your first two statements.

See, there is this interesting fact about human beings. Unlike other animals we aren't determined by our biology. And human psychology and physiology can and frequently do come apart. I know some people still like to cover their ears and eyes and live in the stone age, pretending as if homosexuality is merely a choice and not a biological or psychological predisposition, and I can see that is clearly going on in this case. Jenner can't be a woman because he was born with a penis. Well, I guess Oscar Pistorius wasn't an Olympic sprinter because he only had one leg. And I guess your 2 year old son was already a man because he had a penis. Never mind that he knew nothing about what manhood entailed - his having a penis was sufficient.

I suggest you re-think the role of DNA in your story too.

Hey thanks CC! Because I have a biological and psychological predisposition to be an alcoholic and have sex with sheep and I've been living a lie all these years. If my family and friends can't accept me that's their problem. I've got to be me!... Where's my courage award???!!

 

[kikdakan]

If Jenner was truly courageous he would have put as much distance between him and that Kardashian clan as humanly possible.

AMEN!!!

 

[CC_Lemming]

Hey thanks CC! Because I have a biological and psychological predisposition to be an alcoholic and have sex with sheep and I've been living a lie all these years. If my family and friends can't accept me that's their problem. I've got to be me!... Where's my courage award???!!

Excellent post. That's exactly what I said. You understood it perfectly.

 

[bigboxes]

No. I did not claim my opinion is more valuable than yours, though that is what I think, because I think it is more informed. And I say that hesitantly, because there is a lot about Gender Dysphoria I don't understand and won't pretend to understand. I know the psychologists aren't on your side, and that's enough for me. In any case, you have not shown, nor provided any argument, to suggest that DNA and chromosomes have no influence in one being a transsexual. Your position suggests that these are binary influences, they either make one completely a male or completely a female, as evidenced by the appearance of the relevant genitalia. I suggested you might want to re-think that, because that position is woefully inadequate. Most obviously, some people are born with no clear or discernible genitalia at all. How was their sex determined by their DNA and chromosomes? I provide some evidence for you to consider, both of which argue that biology plays a significant role in Gender Dysphoria.

1) http://www.religioustolerance.org/transsexu3.htm
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

*Edited* My first paragraph was unclear the first time around. Sorry about that.

I love ReligiousTolerance.org, but didn't know that they had something about transexualism. Learn something new each day. I am slowly coming around to the transgender discussion. I used to view GRS as mutilation and their transgendered as not accepting their homosexuality. But I finally came to the conclusion that I don't know everything. There's so much stuff that really isn't black and white. New paradigms emerge all the time as our viewpoint changes. I'm trying to open my mind more than in the past. Thanks for the link.

 

[lionheartlvk]

Nothing courageous at all. ESPN is just like every other moron/follower on twitter, facebook, etc. trying to jump on the bandwagon and look 'cool' to support HIM. Bruce Jenner and all transgenders are nothing but perverts or individuals with extreme psychological disorders. Period. CC Lemming, posting some wiki link doesn't prove it is science at all. Quite frankly, real fact and science has been thrown out the window a long time ago in regards to these controversial issues on both sides of the aisle. Global Warming? Evolution? The far right throws science out of the window and claims its a 'liberal agenda'. Then there is the gays (and apparently now perverted transgenders). The far left has their agenda and has twisted biology textbooks for years to 'claim' gay is natural. It's been pushed into the minds of the average dumb populous for enough time now that everyone believes its true. Couple that with their effective media campaign, people's desire to 'follow', and the vigorous attacking of any disenting view as being homophobic, transphobic, bigoted, whatever, the gay agenda is here to stay.

 

[CC_Lemming]

I love ReligiousTolerance.org, but didn't know that they had something about transexualism. Learn something new each day. I am slowly coming around to the transgender discussion. I used to view GRS as mutilation and their transgendered as not accepting their homosexuality. But I finally came to the conclusion that I don't know everything. There's so much stuff that really isn't black and white. New paradigms emerge all the time as our viewpoint changes. I'm trying to open my mind more than in the past. Thanks for the link.

The whole thing makes very little sense to me! My friend has a penis, claims to have been a female since at least he/she was in his/her teens, and still likes women. I guess that makes her a lesbian . Additionally, I know very little about the issue.

The thing is, none of it has to make sense to me, nor do I have to approve of it, in order to see that people like my friend have to have courage to say what they are.

*Edit* I am assuming he has a penis. We don't actually talk about it, nor have I looked!

 

[CC_Lemming]

Nothing courageous at all. ESPN is just like every other moron/follower on twitter, facebook, etc. trying to jump on the bandwagon and look 'cool' to support HIM. Bruce Jenner and all transgenders are nothing but perverts or individuals with extreme psychological disorders. Period. CC Lemming, posting some wiki link doesn't prove it is science at all. Quite frankly, real fact and science has been thrown out the window a long time ago in regards to these controversial issues on both sides of the aisle. Global Warming? Evolution? The far right throws science out of the window and claims its a 'liberal agenda'. Then there is the gays (and apparently now perverted transgenders). The far left has their agenda and has twisted biology textbooks for years to 'claim' gay is natural. It's been pushed into the minds of the average dumb populous for enough time now that everyone believes its true. Couple that with their effective media campaign, people's desire to 'follow', and the vigorous attacking of any disenting view as being homophobic, transphobic, bigoted, whatever, the gay agenda is here to stay.

I'll take the scientific studies cited in both my articles over your opinion. I too hope I am someday able to call experts, scientists, psychologists "morons," "followers," and members of the "dumb populous." If only we could all ascend to your level of intelligence and see everything as it truly is by reducing every disagreement to one about ideological convictions.

I know it's hard to accept that sometimes people have better reasons for their views.

 

[timnsun]

The comparison was apt because the implication of litespeed's position is that biology determines who we are. If you're born with a penis, then you're a man. Well Pistorious was a guy without a leg, hence he couldn't run. Yet he was an Olympian sprinter. Why? Because human beings are not fully determined by their biology. The view is utterly ridiculous.

I thought pistorious was born with legs but had them amputated at a young age due to a genetic condition...

Really has nothing to do with the rest of the thread, but that's what I recall...

 

[CC_Lemming]

I thought pistorious was born with legs but had them amputated at a young age due to a genetic condition...

Really has nothing to do with the rest of the thread, but that's what I recall...

I'm sure you're right. I kept talking as if he still had one leg too, which was another mistake! The point was simply that his biology did not determine what he was. If it did, he would not have been a runner.

 

[SilentCommit]

Nothing courageous at all. ESPN is just like every other moron/follower on twitter, facebook, etc. trying to jump on the bandwagon and look 'cool' to support HIM. Bruce Jenner and all transgenders are nothing but perverts or individuals with extreme psychological disorders. Period. CC Lemming, posting some wiki link doesn't prove it is science at all. Quite frankly, real fact and science has been thrown out the window a long time ago in regards to these controversial issues on both sides of the aisle. Global Warming? Evolution? The far right throws science out of the window and claims its a 'liberal agenda'. Then there is the gays (and apparently now perverted transgenders). The far left has their agenda and has twisted biology textbooks for years to 'claim' gay is natural. It's been pushed into the minds of the average dumb populous for enough time now that everyone believes its true. Couple that with their effective media campaign, people's desire to 'follow', and the vigorous attacking of any disenting view as being homophobic, transphobic, bigoted, whatever, the gay agenda is here to stay.

If by "the gay agenda" you're implying that we're evolving into a more tolerant society, then yes, I certainly agree. As for your view on transgenders and gays, the only thing "perverted" is your viewpoint. It's no matter, embrace change or don't. Cultures evolve with each new generation.

 

[GretnaShawn]

Who cares who ESPN gave their award to? Did anybody care over the last several years? Last years winner was Michael Sam. Why no outrage for a solider not winning then (I honestly could have missed it)?

My wife is a mental health therapist and specializes in transgendered people (they have to go through evaluations before they get the surgery). So I may have a different outlook based in that. But she (Katelyn) is courageous in the fact that trans-females have the highest rate of hate crimes against them than any other member of the LGBTQ community.

I don't really care if you think trans people are wrong or weird or whatever, because what does it matter? They are who they are. Just let them be happy (as long as it isn't hurting anybody else). And if it takes living life as a different gender so be it.

 

[otter 3030]

Yea, those "experts" are never wrong. See Galileo.

 

[CC_Lemming]

Yea, those "experts" are never wrong. See Galileo.

They're wrong all the time. No one is claiming otherwise. What else are they doing when they debate their views and charge their opponent with having a false view? When Copernicus, another expert, rejected the geocentric theory of the universe, he was claiming that Galileo was wrong. The fact that experts are wrong has no bearing whatsoever regarding whether they are right on a particular issue. If you want to be skeptical of some expert's (far more informed) opinion, then you need to provide evidence for thinking it is mistaken. You can't just cower behind the mere possibility of them being wrong because you don't like what they say, for whatever reason. That doesn't make one's own view anymore secure or better.

 

[CC_Lemming]

Who cares who ESPN gave their award to? Did anybody care over the last several years? Last years winner was Michael Sam. Why no outrage for a solider not winning then (I honestly could have missed it)?

My wife is a mental health therapist and specializes in transgendered people (they have to go through evaluations before they get the surgery). So I may have a different outlook based in that. But she (Katelyn) is courageous in the fact that trans-females have the highest rate of hate crimes against them than any other member of the LGBTQ community.

I don't really care if you think trans people are wrong or weird or whatever, because what does it matter? They are who they are. Just let them be happy (as long as it isn't hurting anybody else). And if it takes living life as a different gender so be it.

That's too bad. I'm not sure you were aware of this, but your wife is one of the "moronic followers," a member of the "dumb populous," a proponent of the liberal agenda.

Tell us, how many years did it take her to get her doctoral degree in stupidity?

And what a worthless profession! Did she not know prior to all that schooling that her job was as simple as: Person A enters room. Therapist says, "drop your shorts." Person A reveals a penis. She says, "You're a boy, what's the problem?"

(SARCASM)

 

[sparky62]

This thread is done.