Pocket Passer VS Dual Threats

[hunter6880]

It seems like most Husker fans I speak to are under the belief that with Riley, we can not win at a high level without a pocket passer.

The problem that I have is that offenses today are so different than 10-15 yrs ago. Spread offenses and athletic qb's have helped create major parity recently. So much so that most competitive teams now have an athletic QB and you normally only see the most talented teams running older offenses. My belief is that without consistent top recruiting classes, teams with prostyle offenses and statues at QB can't compete with top tier teams.

My question is do you all feel switching completely to pocket passers gives us our best chance to win under Riley? If so, please make me a believer!!!

 

[redwine65]

It seems like most Husker fans I speak to are under the belief that with Riley, we can not win at a high level without a pocket passer.

The problem that I have is that offenses today are so different than 10-15 yrs ago. Spread offenses and athletic qb's have helped create major parity recently. So much so that most competitive teams now have an athletic QB and you normally only see the most talented teams running older offenses. My belief is that without consistent top recruiting classes, teams with prostyle offenses and statues at QB can't compete with top tier teams.

My question is do you all feel switching completely to pocket passers gives us our best chance to win under Riley? If so, please make me a believer!!!

I think the qb needs to be accurate if we are going to pass a lot, the qb doesn't need to be in the pocket, if he can run and pass thats even better. the problem is running a passing offense with a unaccurate qb. If riley wants to pass a lot, the need for a accurate passer is first and foremost. if we run a lot then the qb doesn't need to be the greatest, he just needs to be good enough to keep the defense honest.

 

[iROOT4nu]

I remember having a similar conversation with my dad. Basically you have USC with a statue with Matt and then with Texas you have arguably one of the best dual threats in Vince Young. Both QBs were very good in college, but both very different. Without VY's legs at QB they wouldn't have had a shot. I think in this day and age, unless your rolling in top 5-10 classes year in year out, you need someone who can create plays when things break down.

 

[TwinsRRUs]

I am fine with a dual threat QB... as long as he is a dual threat QB and not a running back playing the QB position. I think TA is an amazing runner playing the QB position. There is a reason that RK3 came in on passing situations.

I am sick and tired of having QBs who can't hit the broad side of a barn when it comes to the difficult passes into tight windows. That doesn't mean I would like to have a statue playing the QB position. I would prefer a deadly passer with sufficient running capabilities and quickness over both a deadly statue passer or a RB playing QB.

Riley needs a pocket passer only in the sense that he needs a QB that can pass the ball accurately every time and make sound decisions. I think his normal offense doesn't have a good running scheme for RBs only. The QB run game opens everything else up and makes his running scheme look better. I am not completely convinced that a better quality RB would have brought the run game to life at the start of the season.

For all of the talk of Jet Sweeps before the season began, I thought we would see the sweeper get the ball more than once or twice a game rather than be a decoy to help figure out what type of pass defense the defense is playing.

To answer your question, I do not believe switching completely over to a pocket passer gives us our best chance to win under Riley, but it would help if we plan on passing it 40+ times a game and run only 20 times.

 

[phoenix4nu]

I think the qb needs to be accurate if we are going to pass a lot, the qb doesn't need to be in the pocket, if he can run and pass thats even better. the problem is running a passing offense with a unaccurate qb. If riley wants to pass a lot, the need for a accurate passer is first and foremost. if we run a lot then the qb doesn't need to be the greatest, he just needs to be good enough to keep the defense honest.

If by "pass a lot," you mean more than half the time, Riley does not want to do that (if you believe what he said after the bowl game). So it would seem to make sense for him to get a dual threat quarterback - or a least a quarterback who is mobile enough to run occasionally.

 

[jimbosc]

TA is not an amazing runner - but he is big & strong and can run through arm tackles. He also has a cannon for an arm. He is dual threat - but he should not be trying to throw it 40+ times from the pocket - that is not the best fit for his skills.

 

[BigRedballz]

I've always favored a dual threat QB but he has to have the right mentality. Cam Newton, Marcus Mariotta or Russell Wilson type. We've had them in the past to an extent-Gdowski, Taylor and Gill come to mind but they were still a little more run oriented than I think we should have.

 

[kaz36]

3 out of the 4 teams in the CFB playoff had QB's that I would consider pocket passers. Two teams (Iowa & MSU) who barely missed the playoff had pocket passers. IMO, it's not just about pocket passer vs mobile QB. It is about recruiting to your system, coaching it and putting the best players out there and coaching to their strengths.

 

[Redblood23]

It's all about system.. If MR is going to run a pro style offense a pocket pass first QB is needed.

 

[otismotis08]

Dual threat QBs are more fun to watch, IMHO.

 

[Redblood23]

F*k fun it's about winning. Bama is smashing folk with their non dual QB.

 

[RealHusker]

If you have a good OL, you can win with either.

You can also win with either if the QB is a good game manager that is able to play to his strengths and minimize catastrophic errors. We've had guys that can do the first, but not avoid the 2nd.

Riley has said he wants to be balanced - which isn't exactly a ground-breaking strategy. However, if you are going to be balanced, that means you are probably going to be throwing the ball at least 30 times a game. In that case, being able to read defenses, go through progressions, and distribute the ball accurately are all more desired skills than speed/agility. If the guy that can read a defense, check down, and throw accurately can also run like Cam Newton, then you are really on to something.

If your guy that can read a defense, check down, and throw accurately is a statue back there, then hopefully he also has pocket presence, can feel pressure, and can throw the ball away to move on to the next down.

 

[tony3348]

I am fine with a dual threat QB... as long as he is a dual threat QB and not a running back playing the QB position. I think TA is an amazing runner playing the QB position. There is a reason that RK3 came in on passing situations.

I am sick and tired of having QBs who can't hit the broad side of a barn when it comes to the difficult passes into tight windows. That doesn't mean I would like to have a statue playing the QB position. I would prefer a deadly passer with sufficient running capabilities and quickness over both a deadly statue passer or a RB playing QB.

Riley needs a pocket passer only in the sense that he needs a QB that can pass the ball accurately every time and make sound decisions. I think his normal offense doesn't have a good running scheme for RBs only. The QB run game opens everything else up and makes his running scheme look better. I am not completely convinced that a better quality RB would have brought the run game to life at the start of the season.

For all of the talk of Jet Sweeps before the season began, I thought we would see the sweeper get the ball more than once or twice a game rather than be a decoy to help figure out what type of pass defense the defense is playing.

To answer your question, I do not believe switching completely over to a pocket passer gives us our best chance to win under Riley, but it would help if we plan on passing it 40+ times a game and run only 20 times.

Agree with point of view. In addition, consider recruiting for WRs if you demonstrate a commitment to effective passing. We want to continue to bring in receivers like Morgan.

 

[huskerfan1414]

O line, tight ends, and running. See Stanford:
QB passing attempts per game at 22.7, and that's with a prospect QB who is mostly pocket passer.
Nebraska? 35.2 per game with dual threat tommy Armstrong who has proven throughout his career he can't be trusted. It's no coincidence our best game was with him only throwing 20 times.
Nebraska was 44th in pass attempts per game, Stanford was 118th, with a good QB.
We need to have an identity like stanfords to win consistently, period.

 

[suhnami]

My question is do you all feel switching completely to pocket passers gives us our best chance to win under Riley? If so, please make me a believer!!!

With the type of offense (which is what decides the success a QB will have) that Riley wants to run, only a good to great passer will work. IDK if it has to be a "pocket" passer but most passes are probably made from the pocket anyway.

 

[scarletred]

O line, tight ends, and running. See Stanford:
QB passing attempts per game at 22.7, and that's with a prospect QB who is mostly pocket passer.
Nebraska? 35.2 per game with dual threat tommy Armstrong who has proven throughout his career he can't be trusted. It's no coincidence our best game was with him only throwing 20 times.
Nebraska was 44th in pass attempts per game, Stanford was 118th, with a good QB.
We need to have an identity like stanfords to win consistently, period.

Our offensive line isn't as good as Stanford's. So we need to get better on the offensive line to run the ball better.
Beginning of the year we couldn't even make a 3rd and one which costed us the BYU,Illinois and Wisconsin games.

 

[barney44]

F*k fun it's about winning. Bama is smashing folk with their non dual QB.

We better get a defense like Bamas if we want to do the same. They aren't winning because their offense is a juggernaut, they're winning because their defense is good enough to allow their offense to wear down an opposing defense.

If we had a bad ass defense then our offense as it is right now is totally capable of winning championships.

 

[redwine65]

If by "pass a lot," you mean more than half the time, Riley does not want to do that (if you believe what he said after the bowl game). So it would seem to make sense for him to get a dual threat quarterback - or a least a quarterback who is mobile enough to run occasionally.

I don't believe what riley said on that issue.
1. he was pass happy at oregon state
2. dl is pass happy
3. riley and dl has been pass happy all season
4. there were I think 2 times we had the ball around ucla's 5 yards line. with 1st and goal.
and both times riley and dl (whoever calls plays between them) went pass happy and we came away with 3 points...

remember they went pass happy at ucla's 5 yard line, at first and goal...we had 3 serious pounding backs, the fb, cross, and the new guy....and we had armstrong as qb.

I believe riley is as committed to the run, as 0bama is to gun rights, and iran is to religious freedom.
the only time they seem committed to the run is if northeast iowa state school for legless blind nuns, could run on the opposing defense. and even then they are probably thinking pass.
(not blaming riley or anyone, I hope riley finds his key qb, just might be a matter of old dog/ new tricks)

 

[TruHusker]

There are trade offs with both. One would expect the pocket passer to be more refined in his pure passing skills including reads, set up, timing, delivery, etc. Being a pocket passer doesn't mean he can't take off when the opening is there. There is a difference between a stiff pocket passer and more mobile one. It does put more pressure on the running game and the O-line for a pocket passer. In some ways they also become a bit more predicable. I remember reading an article back in the old days when Pat Hayden and McKay were in high school. The article basically said that a good throwing QB and a good route running WR who were working together were nearly impossible to stop. That assumes everything is done well of course but I think you get the drift.

I remember Tom saying years ago that he thought he needed to have a QB that could run so it put more pressure on the D. The running QB or option brought the safeties up and got them involved more in the run game than they were use to. That makes sense. There are trade offs though. They have more injuries and they aren't a refined, generally speaking, in the passing game technique. The running QB's take a lot of shots and it wears them down over time. Think what you are asking a kid to do and it is a lot as a "dual-threat." Asking a kid to make a pre-snap read, then in-play read on the zone read, then have great footwork in the passing game is tough. I know there are a few pros who are mentioned but really, what are there, like three of them? Very small quantity.

It is interesting that Terry Wilson from Oklahoma who was originally committed to Nebraska (now Oregon) is listed as a dual-threat QB. Was MR going to make him one dimensional or still a dual-threat type?

Everyone would love to have a Russel Wilson on their team but they are few and far between.

 

[huskerfan1414]

Our offensive line isn't as good as Stanford's. So we need to get better on the offensive line to run the ball better.
Beginning of the year we couldn't even make a 3rd and one which costed us the BYU,Illinois and Wisconsin games.

You are thinking short-sided.
Against BYU, Armstrong had 41 attempts. Newly and cross had 17 carries and averaged 4.6 ypc. Armstrong played pretty well but you need to remember that running the ball late in the fourth kills enough clock to not give BYU a chance at the Hail Mary. Instead we get cute. There's one loss that should have been a win.
Against Illinois, Armstrong had 31 attempts with a whopping 32% completion rate and 1 pick with no touchdowns. Our backs combined were averaging around five yards a carry and, again, more runs in the fourth would have ended the game. I'd argue that taking 11 attempts away from tommy would have put the game away sooner and helped tommy, but whatever. There's another win that we should have had.
Wisconsin is more debate able, but tommy had 28 attempts and completed 39.3%. I'd still tray take at least five attempts away from a bad QB
Don't get me started on Purdue. 48 attempts for a backup against an abysmal run defense. If we had committed to the run like we did against ucla, Purdue would have never had the chance to take the lead against us, period.
Moral of the story is that you don't need to have an offensive line as good as Stanfords. That is a cop out. It is hypocritical to say we don't have a good enough oline while not pointing out the glaring fact that quarterback was the biggest weakness on this team, bigger than the line, yet we still averaged 35 attempts a game despite all the proof that they just could not do it.
There are at least three wins we left on the table due to poor game planning and play calling. Running more would have made our qbs more effective than 40% completion rate and would have helped our defense immensely, even though we aren't as good as Stanford (nor would we have finished with as good a season, but I'll take 9 wins over six, thank you).
I know some people want to be complex and new-age and don't want to hear "run the damn ball" because it seems too simple and isn't sexy, but it is a short way of saying the damn truth. Nebraska proved it against ucla, and Riley had better take notes. You can have an even better pass game with less attempts and more runs. Especially in big ten country.
So...run the damn ball!

 

[SnohomishRed]

F*k fun it's about winning. Bama is smashing folk with their non dual QB.

The only thing that really matters is playing top level defense - doesn't matter dual threat or pro -style QB

If we do not consistently finish in the top 20 in scoring defense it really akes no difference

 

[StrongArm517]

Very good discussion. Hopefully our staff is learning and getting better with every game.

 

[newAD]

Just want someone who is accurate, makes good decisions, and can go through at least progressions.

 

[lovetheskers]

Some have made good points in this thread. The Brain is the first thing that I think of with a Riley offense. Then accuracy. Then arm strength. Then mobility. Have to see the field make the right reads. By the way if you haven't checked his stats POB can run some.GBR

 

[jeans15]

Just want someone who is accurate, makes good decisions, and can go through at least progressions.

Gotta have time to go through progressions. Agree with the rest as well.

 

[jeans15]

TA is short. I think that plays into his lack of vision at times as well.

 

[lovetheskers]

TA is short. I think that plays into his lack of vision at times as well.

Drew Brees

 

[barney44]

The only thing that really matters is playing top level defense - doesn't matter dual threat or pro -style QB

If we do not consistently finish in the top 20 in scoring defense it really akes no difference

Strong defense and a strong offensive line. With those two you don't have to worry about losing out on all the tippy top skill players.

 

[jeans15]

Drew Brees

Point still stands.

 

[lovetheskers]

Point still stands.

Yep definitely a factor your correct. Just to many times no one was in front of him and he throws to a defender right in his vision. I want him to be better. Believe me. GBR

 

[jedimasterjed]

The offense we ran against UCLA was the type of offense I hope we keep running. Having 10 to 12 quarterback designed run plays keeps the defense offguard. The power running game that night fits the type of athlete we can recruit in the midwest.

I would like to see a Nebraska run the ball more than 60% of the time. POB is the type of quarterback we need to keep recruiting.

 

[lovetheskers]

The offense we ran against UCLA was the type of offense I hope we keep running. Having 10 to 12 quarterback designed run plays keeps the defense offguard. The power running game that night fits the type of athlete we can recruit in the midwest.

I would like to see a Nebraska run the ball more than 60% of the time. POB is the type of quarterback we need to keep recruiting.

Hmmmm clouded the future is young Jedi. Answers we seek. Faith we need. The dark side it will prevent.

 

[TruHusker]

The offense we ran against UCLA was the type of offense I hope we keep running. Having 10 to 12 quarterback designed run plays keeps the defense offguard. The power running game that night fits the type of athlete we can recruit in the midwest.

I would like to see a Nebraska run the ball more than 60% of the time. POB is the type of quarterback we need to keep recruiting.

You mean the offense that moved the ball on the ground? I think the stars lined up for the Huskers in the bowl game. Yep Riley had a good plan but UCLA was ripe for the picking. We didn't suddenly get world beaters at the power game.

Seems to be a mixture of wants in your statements - running QB, POB, power running game. POB is a pro style QB, not a dual-threat type although he can run in HS at least. We are still running right on the edge with our AB situation. You have Armstrong and then???? IF POB comes in and makes a dent, he is a different player than Armstrong and the rest of those behind him. The drop off after Armstrong is significant. One small injury and we are in big trouble with someone to come in and then the major differences in abilities.

 

[z28craz]

Haven't read the entire thread, but IMO we need a throw first QB who knows when to tuck the ball and run. I'm. Thinking an Alex Smith type college player. He will beat you through the air, but when necessary can pick up yardage on the ground. For too long, IMO, we have had a run first QB. IMO we need a QB who can manage an offense, is a pass first QB, but who has the capability to run enough to break a pocket, or run a draw when needed.

 

[NikkiSixx]

We don't really have the time to invest in the coaches learning on the job on how to best use a dual threat guy. Re-watch 2015 if you have forgotten how that went. And no, one game doesn't tell the story of how it's going to work next year. UCLA was weak against the run.

We are stuck with these coaches, so they better get going on their pro style guy..

Oh wait, Riley is talking like he is gonna change his philosophy somewhat next year..

what a freaking mess.. we going left or right? left, no right, wait, go left again, no right

It would be nice if we actually had an Identity first.

 

[leodisflowers]

We don't really have the time to invest in the coaches learning on the job on how to best use a dual threat guy. Re-watch 2015 if you have forgotten how that went. And no, one game doesn't tell the story of how it's going to work next year. UCLA was weak against the run.

We are stuck with these coaches, so they better get going on their pro style guy..

Oh wait, Riley is talking like he is gonna change his philosophy somewhat next year..

what a freaking mess.. we going left or right? left, no right, wait, go left again, no right

It would be nice if we actually had an Identity first.

Agreed. Establish an identity. At the end of the day we need players. Besides MSU, the playoff teams are perennial recruiting aces. Coaching helps, but I'd like to see Saban with mediocre players. Not saying he wouldn't be good because I think he is a stud, but same goes for Dabo. You play with mediocre talent you get the same results with one off good seasons (i.e. Iowa.).