OT: NSAA proposal on classifications

[CheeseRunza]

What are the thoughts on the latest NSAA proposal? Is it a legitimate attempt to level the playing field? Does it afford everyone an equal chance at success? Does it target non-public schools? Does it punish successful programs? Does poverty level play a role in success on the field/court? Is it more PC stuff to make sure everyone gets a trophy? Does it reword hard work in building successful programs?
http://newschannelnebraska.com/feat...rce-top-high-school-programs-to-jump-a-class/

 

[kerpal_68]

I'm guessing Crofton's women teams would be punished by this. This is a terrible idea to punish teams that work for years to build up their programs.

 

[runningback43]

I think all it does is punish teams for being good. I also worry about the safety of the athletes. If you have a really good group of kids come through and are very successful in C-1 you will get bumped up to class B. There is a lot of difference between Class B football and C-1 football.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

I have coached Private, Public and Boys Town...Here is what I have noticed.

1. Expectations of the staff
2. Commitment of the players/staff
3. Accountability
4. Consequences

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

 

[runningback43]

I have coached Private, Public and Boys Town...Here is what I have noticed.

1. Expectations of the staff
2. Commitment of the players/staff
3. Accountability
4. Consequences

Great post.

 

[mwulf]

Private and public schools should never be in the same classification system but the states population is too small to make that work so keep things the way they are

 

[Hastings_Husker]

I don't really care one way or the other, but the one question that I would have is about the line between D1 and C2. For football that means 8 man vs 11 man, and that would mean that you need to change the width and length of your field. That would involve digging up goal posts and moving them back, possibly digging up and moving a press box/score box area, maybe moving the score board, dirt work, new grass/sod/turf. Does that all fall on the school to pay for? Can they just stay D1 and not be eligible for the playoffs and then let their rating fall over a couple of years to where they would be back in D1 anyway?

 

[nebcountry]

I haven't lived in Nebraska for quite awhile. Are the private schools en masse recruiting? I remember some really small schools would go on a domination tour when they had a handful of good to elite athletes. And then once that handful were gone, a new really small school would take over. This is a generalization, because I only took a passing notice of it. Lyons boys BB being an example.

I suppose it's a decision that could be left up to the schools.

 

[CheeseRunza]

I haven't lived in Nebraska for quite awhile. Are the private schools en masse recruiting? I remember some really small schools would go on a domination tour when they had a handful of good to elite athletes. And then once that handful were gone, a new really small school would take over. This is a generalization, because I only took a passing notice of it. Lyons boys BB being an example.

I suppose it's a decision that could be left up to the schools.

Of course the private schools recruit students. That is how they keep the doors open, by recruiting paying customers. Which is why I don't really buy the "controlled enrollment" argument. What school is going to turn away paying customers as long as they physically have the room to accept them? Now, do they target and recruit specific athletes? I can't say I've heard too much of this, at least no more so than what goes on in the public schools in Lincoln and Omaha.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

Of course the private schools recruit students. That is how they keep the doors open, by recruiting paying customers. Which is why I don't really buy the "controlled enrollment" argument. What school is going to turn away paying customers as long as they physically have the room to accept them? Now, do they target and recruit specific athletes? I can't say I've heard too much of this, at least no more so than what goes on in the public schools in Lincoln and Omaha.

Clearly they have to recruit but they don't really target a ton of "just athletes" they basically want to make sure they fill their classes out first. They do make their presence felt, they show up at middle school games and stuff like that, they invite the students in middle school to the high school games, but that makes sense, they are running a school but it is still a business.

But as far as targeting specific athletes, it is few and far between.

 

[huskernaut]

Of course the private schools recruit students. That is how they keep the doors open, by recruiting paying customers. Which is why I don't really buy the "controlled enrollment" argument. What school is going to turn away paying customers as long as they physically have the room to accept them? Now, do they target and recruit specific athletes? I can't say I've heard too much of this, at least no more so than what goes on in the public schools in Lincoln and Omaha.

The only school i've heard of capping enrollment is Omaha Skutt, which allows them to remain in class B. That's coming from a coach at the school.

 

[ridge22]

I have coached Private, Public and Boys Town...Here is what I have noticed.

1. Expectations of the staff
2. Commitment of the players/staff
3. Accountability
4. Consequences

I see the 4 points that you have noted, but how do they differ from Private and Public?

 

[nebcountry]

Of course the private schools recruit students. That is how they keep the doors open, by recruiting paying customers. Which is why I don't really buy the "controlled enrollment" argument. What school is going to turn away paying customers as long as they physically have the room to accept them? Now, do they target and recruit specific athletes? I can't say I've heard too much of this, at least no more so than what goes on in the public schools in Lincoln and Omaha.

I wasn't concise in my first post. I meant recruit athletes to get athletes similar to an IMG Academy, obviously to a much lesser degree. And, it looks by some of the posts that it's not really happening. So, I would say let the schools decide.

As for the other part of the article. Let's just make something up and try to define it. We'll call it the Hawthorne Effect. And since we are making it up, we'll say that if you are being watched (have expectations, etc), you'll perform better.

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

I don't really care one way or the other, but the one question that I would have is about the line between D1 and C2. For football that means 8 man vs 11 man, and that would mean that you need to change the width and length of your field. That would involve digging up goal posts and moving them back, possibly digging up and moving a press box/score box area, maybe moving the score board, dirt work, new grass/sod/turf. Does that all fall on the school to pay for? Can they just stay D1 and not be eligible for the playoffs and then let their rating fall over a couple of years to where they would be back in D1 anyway?

This would effect almost nobody.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

I see the 4 points that you have noted, but how do they differ from Private and Public?

Well the big thing is the consequence part. At certain schools there are actual consequences. My friend coaches at an OPS school and he said when students don't show up for practice there is not really a lot they can do as a consequence so it is really hard to hold them accountable.

They don't always differ, a lot of public schools are great at all 4 and there are private schools that suck at all 4. I didn't mean it that one is way better than the other. It is just the things I have noticed.

 

[GretnaShawn]

Well the big thing is the consequence part. At certain schools there are actual consequences. My friend coaches at an OPS school and he said when students don't show up for practice there is not really a lot they can do as a consequence so it is really hard to hold them accountable.

They don't always differ, a lot of public schools are great at all 4 and there are private schools that suck at all 4. I didn't mean it that one is way better than the other. It is just the things I have noticed.

Can't they sit them? No playing time?

 

[ridge22]

Well the big thing is the consequence part. At certain schools there are actual consequences. My friend coaches at an OPS school and he said when students don't show up for practice there is not really a lot they can do as a consequence so it is really hard to hold them accountable.

They don't always differ, a lot of public schools are great at all 4 and there are private schools that suck at all 4. I didn't mean it that one is way better than the other. It is just the things I have noticed.

That's what I thought you were angling at, but didn't know for sure.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

Can't they sit them? No playing time?

Yes and no...The problem is that they will start off with 40 kids on varsity...but after the first game they are usually a lot closer to 25-30, so now they are basically just trying to make it through the season. The school I am referring to, if they were to sit players for their infractions, would probably have a hard time fielding a team. You get to the point where you have to ask yourself, do you really want to trot out 5-6 freshmen vs a Class A schedule.

It really sucks. You ref and you probably have an idea what I am talking about with some certain schools.

First game I ever coached at Boys Town (JV game, years ago) I get to school and get told "Coach, did you hear, our starting QB and starting Center ran away last night"

They were really good players but they had issues and there was no way they had earned the right to play varsity so we kept them on JV until we could make sure they were accountable. It hurt our varsity team in terms of athletes but it did save us some headaches and kept a very clear picture of the plan...you are either in or you are out.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

That's what I thought you were angling at, but didn't know for sure.

Yeah, sorry, I should have been clearer.

 

[huskerfan1414]

I wasn't concise in my first post. I meant recruit athletes to get athletes similar to an IMG Academy, obviously to a much lesser degree. .

This does not happen at most of the schools, although both private and public schools will recruit athletes. However, a lot of people throw out accusations of private schools recruiting athletes, paying them money and scholarships, etc. all because they are jealous and can't handle that the parochial school offers a better school environment and wins consistently. They have to be cheating, right? Bitter losers. But recruiting isn't at the heart of this.

The big thing people are saying, including the ignorant Jim Tenipor, is that parochial schools can "control their enrollment". What a bunch of utter foolishness. They have no idea what it takes to keep doors open at these schools because these people operate above the giant safety net that is guaranteed tax money. They haven't got a clue. Again, a bunch of jealous losers.

As far as the Crofton girls argument goes, there are bunch of sub categories that are designed specifically to help get public schools out of the success punishment. This entire thing has been created to do one thing and one thing only: punish parochial schools because they are successful. By masking it this way it makes it look like it isn't directed as such, therefore more agreeable. But when it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck.

 

[ridge22]

This does not happen at most of the schools, although both private and public schools will recruit athletes. However, a lot of people throw out accusations of private schools recruiting athletes, paying them money and scholarships, etc. all because they are jealous and can't handle that the parochial school offers a better school environment and wins consistently. They have to be cheating, right? Bitter losers. But recruiting isn't at the heart of this.

The big thing people are saying, including the ignorant Jim Tenipor, is that parochial schools can "control their enrollment". What a bunch of utter foolishness. They have no idea what it takes to keep doors open at these schools because these people operate above the giant safety net that is guaranteed tax money. They haven't got a clue. Again, a bunch of jealous losers.

As far as the Crofton girls argument goes, there are bunch of sub categories that are designed specifically to help get public schools out of the success punishment. This entire thing has been created to do one thing and one thing only: punish parochial schools because they are successful. By masking it this way it makes it look like it isn't directed as such, therefore more agreeable. But when it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck.

IMO, I think you hit the nail on the head with the guaranteed tax money point. Which is kind of ironic because if you send your kid to a parochial school, you don't get any tax relief because of it. So LPS is squeezing me for what they can and my kid doesn't even "consume" any of those tax dollars.

Will this affect speech, one-act play, music, debate or journalism? These are all activities governed by the NSAA, or do they not care about that stuff?

 

[TheNewNU]

Instead of punishing schools for being successful. How about splitting up the classes more? To my count there are 251 schools that play football. Why not have 10, 25 team divisions? A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2, E1, E2 That way there is more parity because everyone is competing with teams that are closer in numbers. That way Elkhorn South with 929 students isn't playing Omaha Gross with 295 students. How is that fair? Playing a school with 3 times as many students? You tell me how that game is going to end up?

 

[GretnaShawn]

Yes and no...The problem is that they will start off with 40 kids on varsity...but after the first game they are usually a lot closer to 25-30, so now they are basically just trying to make it through the season. The school I am referring to, if they were to sit players for their infractions, would probably have a hard time fielding a team. You get to the point where you have to ask yourself, do you really want to trot out 5-6 freshmen vs a Class A schedule.

It really sucks. You ref and you probably have an idea what I am talking about with some certain schools.

First game I ever coached at Boys Town (JV game, years ago) I get to school and get told "Coach, did you hear, our starting QB and starting Center ran away last night"

They were really good players but they had issues and there was no way they had earned the right to play varsity so we kept them on JV until we could make sure they were accountable. It hurt our varsity team in terms of athletes but it did save us some headaches and kept a very clear picture of the plan...you are either in or you are out.

That makes sense. Especially at Boys Town. My aunt and uncle were parents there many years ago. So I have heard plenty of stories (and on a positive note, some of the kids, now adults, are still in contact with them and come to our family functions on occasion).

 

[JohnRossEwing]

That makes sense. Especially at Boys Town. My aunt and uncle were parents there many years ago. So I have heard plenty of stories (and on a positive note, some of the kids, now adults, are still in contact with them and come to our family functions on occasion).

That is cool! Boys Town is awesome and it is amazing how many people they have helped, your aunt and uncle probably have some fun stories!!!

 

[GretnaShawn]

That is cool! Boys Town is awesome and it is amazing how many people they have helped, your aunt and uncle probably have some fun stories!!!

I was really young when they were parents, so I don't remember a ton of it. But I loved when we would do Easter or Christmas at the Boys Town house. The house just seemed so big and so many older kids we there, it was awesome.

My aunt and uncles had all three of their kids get married recently and it was neat to see how Boys Town 'kids' made it to the weddings. Boys Town is a really cool place that does tons of good.

 

[GretnaShawn]

IMO, I think you hit the nail on the head with the guaranteed tax money point. Which is kind of ironic because if you send your kid to a parochial school, you don't get any tax relief because of it. So LPS is squeezing me for what they can and my kid doesn't even "consume" any of those tax dollars.

Will this affect speech, one-act play, music, debate or journalism? These are all activities governed by the NSAA, or do they not care about that stuff?

They cared enough about the One-Act play to bump Gretna to Class A because they are so good. Although, it didn't change anything because now Gretna just dominates Class A.

 

[dacred]

What are the thoughts on the latest NSAA proposal? Is it a legitimate attempt to level the playing field? Does it afford everyone an equal chance at success? Does it target non-public schools? Does it punish successful programs? Does poverty level play a role in success on the field/court? Is it more PC stuff to make sure everyone gets a trophy? Does it reword hard work in building successful programs?
http://newschannelnebraska.com/feat...rce-top-high-school-programs-to-jump-a-class/

maybe this is a new version but it was voted by several district as of a month or so ago. I don't think all districts had voted but the 6 or 8 that did, voted it down and it takes a large percentage to pass.

 

[huskerfan1414]

Instead of punishing schools for being successful. How about splitting up the classes more? To my count there are 251 schools that play football. Why not have 10, 25 team divisions? A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2, E1, E2 That way there is more parity because everyone is competing with teams that are closer in numbers. That way Elkhorn South with 929 students isn't playing Omaha Gross with 295 students. How is that fair? Playing a school with 3 times as many students? You tell me how that game is going to end up?

I disagree. It is thin enough. But i see what you are saying

 

[spartanhusker]

I have coached Private, Public and Boys Town...Here is what I have noticed.

1. Expectations of the staff
2. Commitment of the players/staff
3. Accountability
4. Consequences

THIS!!!!!! I know I'm a state south, but WHEN I DIE, what I will miss the least besides world conflict is the insipid battles of public vs. private....

 

[litespeedhuskerfan]

Interesting to read about the low participation numbers and coaches having their hands tied because of it. My son and I were talking to a local high school baseball coach this last fall and my son asked if they do much running in practice and he said "Hell no, if I did that nobody would show up for practice". They struggled to field a team so bad that he literally had zero leverage with the players and couldn't do anything to demanding. I realize this has little to do with the OP, but a few posters have mentioned it and I find the topic fascinating because in all honesty, I thought most, if not all, high school teams had more players than room, and apparently that just isn't the case.

 

[Tuco Salamanca]

Another pitfall to open enrollment.

 

[tro80]

Instead of punishing schools for being successful. How about splitting up the classes more? To my count there are 251 schools that play football. Why not have 10, 25 team divisions? A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2, E1, E2 That way there is more parity because everyone is competing with teams that are closer in numbers. That way Elkhorn South with 929 students isn't playing Omaha Gross with 295 students. How is that fair? Playing a school with 3 times as many students? You tell me how that game is going to end up?

 

[tro80]

Instead of punishing schools for being successful. How about splitting up the classes more? To my count there are 251 schools that play football. Why not have 10, 25 team divisions? A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2, E1, E2 That way there is more parity because everyone is competing with teams that are closer in numbers. That way Elkhorn South with 929 students isn't playing Omaha Gross with 295 students. How is that fair? Playing a school with 3 times as many students? You tell me how that game is going to end up?

While a nice idea, in a state like Nebraska, many of the schools that would fit neatly into each of the 10 divisions will be spread from one end of the state to the other. It just isn't practical for that reason.

 

[JohnRossEwing]

Interesting to read about the low participation numbers and coaches having their hands tied because of it. My son and I were talking to a local high school baseball coach this last fall and my son asked if they do much running in practice and he said "Hell no, if I did that nobody would show up for practice". They struggled to field a team so bad that he literally had zero leverage with the players and couldn't do anything to demanding. I realize this has little to do with the OP, but a few posters have mentioned it and I find the topic fascinating because in all honesty, I thought most, if not all, high school teams had more players than room, and apparently that just isn't the case.

This is very true and it goes back to the posts I made.

 

[SPbObRT]

long time Norfolk Catholic coach Jeff Bellar had a article about this last week and he is a person of great character who is opposed to this. I for one think it is a horrible idea looking at it, look for instance at numbers in football, a C1 school with great success has about 40 kids out and they have tomoveve up to Class B who may have 70-80 kids out,safety is going to be a huge problem with this. I don't see this passing too many ? unanswered

 

[JohnRossEwing]

THIS!!!!!! I know I'm a state south, but WHEN I DIE, what I will miss the least besides world conflict is the insipid battles of public vs. private....

I know what you mean. It really becomes so crazy at times.

 

[TruHusker]

As spartan mentioned, this same debate has been going on in Kansas. When I was an Principal/AD it came up nearly every year at the local and state levels. The answer in Kansas was to step every up a class automatically. I don't know what the stats are in KS but Wow, you can't ignore the 50% winning with only 13% of the schools. I have worked at both private and public schools, only sports at the public but I can tell you there is definitely recruiting going on. It is often subtle but it is there. Take the school spartan teaches at - first class academics all the way and great sports which all go together with disciplined parents and kids and the really obvious - they generally have financial means. The overall riding question is do private schools have an advantage - YES, but defining it is difficult. Do you agree spartan?

 

[JohnRossEwing]

As spartan mentioned, this same debate has been going on in Kansas. When I was an Principal/AD it came up nearly every year at the local and state levels. The answer in Kansas was to step every up a class automatically. I don't know what the stats are in KS but Wow, you can't ignore the 50% winning with only 13% of the schools. I have worked at both private and public schools, only sports at the public but I can tell you there is definitely recruiting going on. It is often subtle but it is there. Take the school spartan teaches at - first class academics all the way and great sports which all go together with disciplined parents and kids and the really obvious - they generally have financial means. The overall riding question is do private schools have an advantage - YES, but defining it is difficult. Do you agree spartan?

Totally agree with this.

 

[CheeseRunza]

The only school i've heard of capping enrollment is Omaha Skutt, which allows them to remain in class B. That's coming from a coach at the school.

They would probably have the kind of tuition and resources to make that possible I suppose.

As spartan mentioned, this same debate has been going on in Kansas. When I was an Principal/AD it came up nearly every year at the local and state levels. The answer in Kansas was to step every up a class automatically. I don't know what the stats are in KS but Wow, you can't ignore the 50% winning with only 13% of the schools. I have worked at both private and public schools, only sports at the public but I can tell you there is definitely recruiting going on. It is often subtle but it is there. Take the school spartan teaches at - first class academics all the way and great sports which all go together with disciplined parents and kids and the really obvious - they generally have financial means. The overall riding question is do private schools have an advantage - YES, but defining it is difficult. Do you agree spartan?

So should Winnebago and Walthill be forced to move up a class due to their success?