OT: COVID-19 news. Out of over 3000 positive tests in prison

[DudznSudz]

One thing mentioned in the Fresh Air episode is we can bag on China all we want, but they also produce vaccines there (one of two major countries that does at a massive scale, the other being India), as well as manufacturing a lot of the supplies we need. So, while I think it's absolutely fair to be critical of them, official U.S. policy needs to be one of cooperation at this time.

 

[BigBL87]

One thing mentioned in the Fresh Air episode is we can bag on China all we want, but they also produce vaccines there (one of two major countries that does at a massive scale, the other being India), as well as manufacturing a lot of the supplies we need. So, while I think it's absolutely fair to be critical of them, official U.S. policy needs to be one of cooperation at this time.

There is definitely a balance, but I'm also not 100% sure I'd trust vaccines from China at this time. Weren't there significant quality issues with PPE shipped from China when they finally started to send it (after they turned around ships bringing them to the American companies that produced them there, essentially confiscating them)? Or was that overblown?

 

[RedMyMind]

Other telltale signs of a sinister conspiracy:

• Most people who were in a bicycle accident in the past 10 years were riding a bike made in China.
• Most of the dopes who blew off part of their hand while holding a lit firecracker - China!
• When someone drops a plate on the floor and it breaks, there's a good chance it said Made in China on the back.

non sequitur

 

[little a]

One thing mentioned in the Fresh Air episode is we can bag on China all we want, but they also produce vaccines there (one of two major countries that does at a massive scale, the other being India), as well as manufacturing a lot of the supplies we need. So, while I think it's absolutely fair to be critical of them, official U.S. policy needs to be one of cooperation at this time.

Agreed.... no need to show your hand at the poker table while the cards are being dealt. Very interesting that Trump hasn’t blasted them, I feel if he wins the election he will make pharmaceutical supplies and production a BIG part of infrastructure bill; THEN drop the hammer on China!!!

 

[Solana Beach Husker]

Agreed.... no need to show your hand at the poker table while the cards are being dealt. Very interesting that Trump hasn’t blasted them, I feel if he wins the election he will make pharmaceutical supplies and production a BIG part of infrastructure bill; THEN drop the hammer on China!!!

You can only transition from China in a position of strength...America had the economy pre-pandemic to do so...the transition is going to cause prices to skyrocket because they still produce so many things at a price so much cheaper than anywhere else. Moving production to America, where people don't want to work in manufacturing, and we are cutting our flow of cheap labor from Mexico and central america is a recipe for supply, payroll, and price issues. As much as people hated having jobs go overseas, it has allowed low income Americans to buy chinese made products that our parents could only dream of...I have plenty of contact with the service american or old blue collar american...and they all have big screens and iphones...the new america will be a bunch of people who are struggling to find nutrition in their diet but also won't have the tech amenities.

 

[dinglefritz]

It just explains what is going on and how it happened. Dudz Notes:

1.) There are 7 types of Corona Viruses currently known to infect humans. 4 cause common colds. 1 is the first SARS, 1 is MERS. This new one is SARS-2. SARS-1 and MERS were scary but not anywhere near as dangerous as SARS-2, because you had to be pretty virulently infected to spread those two diseases. This one is much, much easier to spread.
- The 4 that cause common colds come with immunity for 1-2 years after infection. Immunity to SARS-1 and MERS was never fully established, but likely. Same with SARS-2; it will probably provide immunity for at least 1-2 years if you get infected/get the vaccine, once it exists.

2.) This one came from bats. They can tell because it is 96% identical to a virus that had already been studied in Southern China. It is slightly mutated, which means it either got into contact with humans, or first a pangolin, snake, fish, or pig, then a human. This is actually how the Spanish Flu started: on a farm in Kansas, where the flu went from a bird, to a pig, to a human, very quickly.
- Bats, weirdly, carry a shit-load of viruses because they have really bizarre immune systems and viruses don't really bother them that much. It made it sound like bat immune systems kind of ignore viruses, so they carry them for a long period of time without getting infected.

3.) Viruses that hop from animals to humans are very scary and could be increasingly more common; deforestation and industrialized farming puts humans in contact with animals in close proximity for periods of time that are kind of unique to our modern way of life. This is why viruses come from China and Africa often these days; these are countries where industrialization, mining, and intensive farming are bringing humans into contact with wild animals more and more often. This is also why the whole "this came from a lab" bullshit is so misleading and stupid; countries, and the WHO, pay for teams to go to these areas and take samples from bats and other animals in the vicinity to prepare for anything that "could" be coming. These things are done for preventative and research measures, not for any other reason.

4.) Herd Immunity is the best way to stop a virus in its tracks. By decreasing the number of people a virus can jump to, you increase the odds that it won't transmit and it'll just die off. They had a really great visual on this using circles. The herd-immune people act like a road block, so maybe only 30% of the population is immune, but it makes it that much harder for the virus to travel around, which often means it fails. Vaccination, by the way, is simply a short-cut to herd immunity. This makes sense, I just hadn't thought of it before.

5.) Supply chain problems for tests and protective gear and inadequate preparation are why the outbreaks have been so bad. China's was like 90% worse than it could have been if they'd just acted 3 weeks sooner. Same goes for Italy, and for the US. South Korea is an example of a country that mobilized quickly and was able to test widely, which allowed them to track the virus's movement accurately and not have to shut their country down (much).

6.) There is no hope of beating this until we reach herd immunity. We may devise treatments to lower mortality (good), but this novel virus only goes away when it can't really spread and not very many people can be made sick by it.

You've made a couple of statements that are either not supported by the facts, impossible to prove or are blatantly false.

First, We can stop this with a vaccine. We don't have to get to "naturally acquired herd immunity". Granted in a way that is creating POPULATION immunity. Humans are not a herd. We've been making effective vaccines for various Corona viruses in multiple species for decades. They continue to be extremely safe and effective.

Second, the idea that this was an accidental release from the virus research lab in Wuhan can NOT be eliminated based on what we know. Yes it likely originally came from a wild virus but there is no way to prove that the Chinese hadn't been working with this virus in their lab and in fact we have intelligence that suggests just that.

Third, you say that modern farming practices and encroachment of humans on the environment is going to make this more common. Yet you suggest that this happened in a market where this crap has been going on for centuries. This has little or nothing to do with modern farming practices.

Finally you give a detailed account of the Spanish Flu which has not been proven. There are multiple theories and the one I believe to be most accurate is that it came back with service men who returned from Europe. The first diagnosed case of the Spanish Flu in the U.S. was on a military base in Kansas.

 

[little a]

You can only transition from China in a position of strength...America had the economy pre-pandemic to do so...the transition is going to cause prices to skyrocket because they still produce so many things at a price so much cheaper than anywhere else. Moving production to America, where people don't want to work in manufacturing, and we are cutting our flow of cheap labor from Mexico and central america is a recipe for supply, payroll, and price issues. As much as people hated having jobs go overseas, it has allowed low income Americans to buy chinese made products that our parents could only dream of...I have plenty of contact with the service american or old blue collar american...and they all have big screens and iphones...the new america will be a bunch of people who are struggling to find nutrition in their diet but also won't have the tech amenities.

Antibiotics, medical supplies, etc need to be made in USA, not a communist country, period. Not saying everything taken away- just infrastructure. I think after this every American would think it’s somewhat ok to pay a little more for things....

 

[NorthwoodHusker]

You need to listen to the whole show. Also, this will clear up what he's talking about for you. This shows China's reported numbers with the virus. It also explains how they get their data, and which organizations rely on their data. Pay particular attention to the New Cases graph.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

It turns out that that reporter, who has been on The Daily a lot and who has, so far, been pretty much dead on target with his analysis and predictions, and who has been working as a reporter since the 1970's, was not mis-speaking or disseminating propaganda, he was accurately describing China's response.

No, listening to hitler or stalin isnt my thing.
Theyve made their bed.

 

[NorthwoodHusker]

So it turns out the Chinese aids has less than a fraction of a percent kill rate and overall this just wasn't nearly the big deal it was made out to be...it's past time to stop the nonsense and open the country back up and let this run it's course...but everyone who is still unsure is free to stay home if they like. Biggest overaction to anything in my lifetime.

Shhhh, you're adding sense to their one sided no dimensional pov.
If it isnt that bad,open it up. It only lasted so long in china, Imsure everyone that says that has spent a few weeks in wuhan recently.
So, lets quit testing, look maw, no new infections, open er up!

 

[NorthwoodHusker]

One thing mentioned in the Fresh Air episode is we can bag on China all we want, but they also produce vaccines there (one of two major countries that does at a massive scale, the other being India), as well as manufacturing a lot of the supplies we need. So, while I think it's absolutely fair to be critical of them, official U.S. policy needs to be one of cooperation at this time.

Ok, we've bagged on the fda too, but we still have an fda. Their handling of the virus caused this, whipping up vaccines will possibly cause something to be unstoppable, like all those that penicillin can't cure.

No, just like the low quality things we get from them, whats to say of these vaccines? No

 

[Charlie Marlow]

Another comprehensive COVID19 article touching a lot of topics.

 

[John_J_Rambo]

Idk about you guys, but I’ve had an impacted assfull of covid news

 

[PvilleHuskerTim]

Another comprehensive COVID19 article touching a lot of topics.

Thanks for the link to the article. This one I read in its entirety. Other than its decidedly one-sided ideology and agenda it did have a lot of information to consider.

 

[Charlie Marlow]

Thanks for the link to the article. This one I read in its entirety. Other than its decidedly one-sided ideology and agenda it did have a lot of information to consider.

I agree with that. Overall a good article but unfortunately the author got a little sidetracked with politics in a few spots

 

[John_J_Rambo]

today in gavin newsome is a power-hungry moron:

 

[HBK4life]

today in gavin newsome is a power-hungry moron:

View embedded media

****ing California. They also just gave 1 Billion dollars to China for PPE masks so that shows how damn smart that state is.

 

[DudznSudz]

You've made a couple of statements that are either not supported by the facts, impossible to prove or are blatantly false.

First, We can stop this with a vaccine. We don't have to get to "naturally acquired herd immunity". Granted in a way that is creating POPULATION immunity. Humans are not a herd. We've been making effective vaccines for various Corona viruses in multiple species for decades. They continue to be extremely safe and effective.

Second, the idea that this was an accidental release from the virus research lab in Wuhan can NOT be eliminated based on what we know. Yes it likely originally came from a wild virus but there is no way to prove that the Chinese hadn't been working with this virus in their lab and in fact we have intelligence that suggests just that.

Third, you say that modern farming practices and encroachment of humans on the environment is going to make this more common. Yet you suggest that this happened in a market where this crap has been going on for centuries. This has little or nothing to do with modern farming practices.

Finally you give a detailed account of the Spanish Flu which has not been proven. There are multiple theories and the one I believe to be most accurate is that it came back with service men who returned from Europe. The first diagnosed case of the Spanish Flu in the U.S. was on a military base in Kansas.

I think you mis-read what I was saying. I'll address each point, just to be clear, and I am not attacking you at all, I am just clarifying:

1.) I was saying that the best way to stop this IS with a vaccine. I was stating that a vaccine is a "short-cut to herd immunity." That's essentially what all vaccines are designed to do. Herd immunity is one way we beat viruses, and vaccines get us there far faster than the "natural" way, whatever that really means. I am 100% pro-vaccine.

2.) I am stating what the documentary states, which is this virus was known to exist in bats in the wild in Southern China, and had already been analyzed in a lab. The current SARS-2 one is 96% similar to that bat one. They do not yet know why it is 4% different, but suspect a mutation from it having passed from a bat to an (insert weird animal in a wet market) to a human. It is true that it hasn't been completely ruled out that it was some sort of accidental release from a research lab, but speculation like that doesn't really mean much right now. Also, that kind of research is very important to do, despite its risks.

3.) The documentary states specifically that our contact with certain kinds of animals increases the likelihood of viral spreading. In particular, they talk about how deforestation camps and mining camps often send poorer people out into the wild, where they may not have the infrastructure set up to support the camp yet, so they go kill bats, monkeys, any other type of bush meat and consume them en masse while they work. Well, that's a great way to have this kind of spread, particularly if you're dealing with bats.

4.) Correct, the Spanish Flu theory has not been proven. But the Kansas farm theory is one of a number of them that are widely thought to be plausible.

 

[yort2000]

You've made a couple of statements that are either not supported by the facts, impossible to prove or are blatantly false.

First, We can stop this with a vaccine. We don't have to get to "naturally acquired herd immunity". Granted in a way that is creating POPULATION immunity. Humans are not a herd. We've been making effective vaccines for various Corona viruses in multiple species for decades. They continue to be extremely safe and effective.

Are you sure about that?

"Unfortunately, despite long-term efforts, effective vaccines to prevent enteric CoV infections remain elusive, and generally live, but not killed vaccines, have induced the most consistent protection against animal CoVs. Confirmation of the pathogenesis of SARS in humans or animals models that mimic SARS may further aid in vaccine design and evaluation."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15742624



"Since the 1960s, tests of vaccine candidates for diseases such as dengue, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) have shown a paradoxical phenomenon: Some animals or people who received the vaccine and were later exposed to the virus developed more severe disease than those who had not been vaccinated (1). The vaccine-primed immune system, in certain cases, seemed to launch a shoddy response to the natural infection."

"This immune backfiring, or so-called immune enhancement, may manifest in different ways such as antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE), a process in which a virus leverages antibodies to aid infection; or cell-based enhancement, a category that includes allergic inflammation caused by Th2 immunopathology."

"“There is the potential for ADE, but the bigger problem is probably Th2 immunopathology,” says Ralph Baric, an epidemiologist and expert in coronaviruses—named for the crown-shaped spike they use to enter human cells—at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In previous studies of SARS, aged mice were found to have particularly high risks of life-threatening Th2 immunopathology (2). Baric expresses his concern about what that might mean for use of a COVID-19 vaccine in elderly people. “Of course, the elderly are our most vulnerable population,” he adds."

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/15/8218

 

[John_J_Rambo]

 

[litespeedhuskerfan]

View embedded media

Hold my beer

 

[John_J_Rambo]

this guy sure is something

 

[NorthwoodHusker]

I think you mis-read what I was saying. I'll address each point, just to be clear, and I am not attacking you at all, I am just clarifying:

1.) I was saying that the best way to stop this IS with a vaccine. I was stating that a vaccine is a "short-cut to herd immunity." That's essentially what all vaccines are designed to do. Herd immunity is one way we beat viruses, and vaccines get us there far faster than the "natural" way, whatever that really means. I am 100% pro-vaccine.

2.) I am stating what the documentary states, which is this virus was known to exist in bats in the wild in Southern China, and had already been analyzed in a lab. The current SARS-2 one is 96% similar to that bat one. They do not yet know why it is 4% different, but suspect a mutation from it having passed from a bat to an (insert weird animal in a wet market) to a human. It is true that it hasn't been completely ruled out that it was some sort of accidental release from a research lab, but speculation like that doesn't really mean much right now. Also, that kind of research is very important to do, despite its risks.

3.) The documentary states specifically that our contact with certain kinds of animals increases the likelihood of viral spreading. In particular, they talk about how deforestation camps and mining camps often send poorer people out into the wild, where they may not have the infrastructure set up to support the camp yet, so they go kill bats, monkeys, any other type of bush meat and consume them en masse while they work. Well, that's a great way to have this kind of spread, particularly if you're dealing with bats.

4.) Correct, the Spanish Flu theory has not been proven. But the Kansas farm theory is one of a number of them that are widely thought to be plausible.

Poor handling doesn't mean human to human trasmission.
It can, but is unlikely.
Thats why sometimes that other animal often helps make it contagious, instead of a handler only getting sick.
Cat scratch fever people can get, but they can't pass it on.

 

[mwulf]

Agreed.... no need to show your hand at the poker table while the cards are being dealt. Very interesting that Trump hasn’t blasted them, I feel if he wins the election he will make pharmaceutical supplies and production a BIG part of infrastructure bill; THEN drop the hammer on China!!!

Would be interesting to see how much of his debt or money is tied up in China

 

[NorthwoodHusker]

this guy sure is something

View embedded media

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/hist...t-eliminating-undesirables-by-2100-130299355/

 

[dinglefritz]

Are you sure about that?

"Unfortunately, despite long-term efforts, effective vaccines to prevent enteric CoV infections remain elusive, and generally live, but not killed vaccines, have induced the most consistent protection against animal CoVs. Confirmation of the pathogenesis of SARS in humans or animals models that mimic SARS may further aid in vaccine design and evaluation."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15742624



"Since the 1960s, tests of vaccine candidates for diseases such as dengue, respiratory syncytial virus (RSV), and severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS) have shown a paradoxical phenomenon: Some animals or people who received the vaccine and were later exposed to the virus developed more severe disease than those who had not been vaccinated (1). The vaccine-primed immune system, in certain cases, seemed to launch a shoddy response to the natural infection."

"This immune backfiring, or so-called immune enhancement, may manifest in different ways such as antibody-dependent enhancement (ADE), a process in which a virus leverages antibodies to aid infection; or cell-based enhancement, a category that includes allergic inflammation caused by Th2 immunopathology."

"“There is the potential for ADE, but the bigger problem is probably Th2 immunopathology,” says Ralph Baric, an epidemiologist and expert in coronaviruses—named for the crown-shaped spike they use to enter human cells—at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. In previous studies of SARS, aged mice were found to have particularly high risks of life-threatening Th2 immunopathology (2). Baric expresses his concern about what that might mean for use of a COVID-19 vaccine in elderly people. “Of course, the elderly are our most vulnerable population,” he adds."

https://www.pnas.org/content/117/15/8218

I am ABSOLUTELY f###ing sure about that. We've used safe AND effective killed Corona Virus vaccines in cattle, pigs, dogs and cats for over 20 years. You're talking about a fu##ing study IN LAB mice whose immune systems are f'd up beyond belief. Why in God's name we use genetically wrecked lab mice and rats to test ANYTHING is beyond understanding. It's ridiculous. There was concern at one time about the vaccine for the feline CV vaccine against FIP. I haven't kept up on that and the last I knew a long time ago it was only recommended for cats in breeding populations with a known problem. Cattle and pig farmers give CV vaccines regularly with great success. The gold standard will be human trials of the vaccine. I think they'll be very successful.

 

[NorthwoodHusker]

I am ABSOLUTELY f###ing sure about that. We've used safe AND effective killed Corona Virus vaccines in cattle, pigs, dogs and cats for over 20 years. You're talking about a fu##ing study IN LAB mice whose immune systems are f'd up beyond belief. Why in God's name we use genetically wrecked lab mice and rats to test ANYTHING is beyond understanding. It's ridiculous. There was concern at one time about the vaccine for the feline CV vaccine against FIP. I haven't kept up on that and the last I knew a long time ago it was only recommended for cats in breeding populations with a known problem. Cattle and pig farmers give CV vaccines regularly with great success. The gold standard will be human trials of the vaccine. I think they'll be very successful.

You see, the sun can't possibly shine,ever again. Just like they tell us they don't know if it's seasonal, then warn about a second wave come fall.
Shade everywhere they look

 

[dinglefritz]

I think you mis-read what I was saying. I'll address each point, just to be clear, and I am not attacking you at all, I am just clarifying:

1.) I was saying that the best way to stop this IS with a vaccine. I was stating that a vaccine is a "short-cut to herd immunity." That's essentially what all vaccines are designed to do. Herd immunity is one way we beat viruses, and vaccines get us there far faster than the "natural" way, whatever that really means. I am 100% pro-vaccine.

2.) I am stating what the documentary states, which is this virus was known to exist in bats in the wild in Southern China, and had already been analyzed in a lab. The current SARS-2 one is 96% similar to that bat one. They do not yet know why it is 4% different, but suspect a mutation from it having passed from a bat to an (insert weird animal in a wet market) to a human. It is true that it hasn't been completely ruled out that it was some sort of accidental release from a research lab, but speculation like that doesn't really mean much right now. Also, that kind of research is very important to do, despite its risks.

3.) The documentary states specifically that our contact with certain kinds of animals increases the likelihood of viral spreading. In particular, they talk about how deforestation camps and mining camps often send poorer people out into the wild, where they may not have the infrastructure set up to support the camp yet, so they go kill bats, monkeys, any other type of bush meat and consume them en masse while they work. Well, that's a great way to have this kind of spread, particularly if you're dealing with bats.

4.) Correct, the Spanish Flu theory has not been proven. But the Kansas farm theory is one of a number of them that are widely thought to be plausible.

TV documentaries written by film makers with a political agenda don't do much for me. Sorry.

 

[dinglefritz]

You see, the sun can't possibly shine,ever again. Just like they tell us they don't know if it's seasonal, then warn about a second wave come fall.
Shade everywhere they look

At Oxford England the Jenner group tested a similar Corona virus vaccine in humans a year ago AND FOUND IT TO BE SAFE IN HUMANS WITH NO ILL EFFECTS WHILE PRODUCING PROTECTION. I didn't see what their previous vaccine was for but I would suspect it was for MERS. The Serum Institute of India will be ready to ship 40 million doses when trials are completed and their vaccine is approved for release. That doesn't help us in the U.S. much but it will be a start. There are lots of companies doing the exact same thing. WHEN the vaccines are through their testing and approval process, things will happen very quickly. No doubt somebody will have a reaction and the anti-vaxxers will lose their mind. We HAVE to remember that a vaccine MIGHT cause a problem in a tiny fraction of people but it will potentially save several hundred thousand lives worldwide. I would take a vaccine today if I could get it. Sanofi says they can make and ship 600 million doses of CV vaccine next year.

 

[Iroh2]

The herd does need thinning...

 

[Charlie Marlow]

Major airlines announce mandatory masks for air travel. Masks won't be that helpful against aerosol inhalation in enclosed spaces, but still effective at preventing droplet inhalation as well as the generation of both droplets and aerosols. And preventing hand to face contact too.

Sorry, you know I have to do it though.

 

[dinglefritz]

Major airlines announce mandatory masks for air travel. Masks won't be that helpful against aerosol inhalation in enclosed spaces, but still effective at preventing droplet inhalation as well as the generation of both droplets and aerosols. And preventing hand to face contact too.

Sorry, you know I have to do it though.

View embedded media

I think at this point if you're going to go through an airport and climb on an airplane, you HAVE to assume that you're going to get exposed to COVID-19. I'm about ready to take a trip to get it over with.

 

[dinglefritz]

Breaking news out of S. Korea. They say the people who testing positive a second time did NOT relapse. The test was picking up dead viruses in their samples. As I suspected.

 

[Hoosker Du]

I think it's neither good nor bad. It just adds credence to the idea that the virus is much more widespread than anybody thought a month or two ago. It is also obvious that when you consider all of the undiagnosed asymptomatic cases that it's mortality rate is not anywhere near what was reported for the first few months.

Does it really matter, when 30% of those that test positive for this virus in the U.S. are dying from it? I thought we were done trying to downplay this virus after the first 20,000 Americans died from it. I guess not..

 

[Hoosker Du]

View embedded media

Some real scientists at work there..

 

[John_J_Rambo]

Does it really matter, when 30% of those that test positive for this virus in the U.S. are dying from it? I thought we were done trying to downplay this virus after the first 20,000 Americans died from it. I guess not..

1.1M positive tests, 63.7k deaths

that's 30% now

 

[cubsker]

Does it really matter, when 30% of those that test positive for this virus in the U.S. are dying from it? I thought we were done trying to downplay this virus after the first 20,000 Americans died from it. I guess not..

math is hard yo

 

[Hoosker Du]

math is hard yo

It must be for some apparently. For those that have tested positive in the U.S., and the virus has run its course. App. 155,000 recovered, app. 64,000 deaths. I would suggest a calculator.

 

[cubsker]

 

[cubsker]

I'll take under 1 percent mortality for all of the money you have to be decided by scientific consensus a year from today. let me know.

 

[Solana Beach Husker]

Antibiotics, medical supplies, etc need to be made in USA, not a communist country, period. Not saying everything taken away- just infrastructure. I think after this every American would think it’s somewhat ok to pay a little more for things....

I don't think you understand the workforce issues we have in america. We have a massive undereducated portion of the population...46% will get any college degree...that leaves more than half of the population looking for work with only a HS diploma. But...that portion of the population won't work grind it out manufacturing jobs...the level of relative skill to work in manufacturing...the sobriety, the responsibility is not something many americans are looking for...in fact in the opiate belt manufacturers are looking for brand new immigrants to work in plants because they are sober and relish the job. A vast majority of food processing is done by illegal immigrants because they get absolutely no benefits and can be dumped and replaced if they are injured. People aren't going to pay 3-4x more for hot dogs because Clayton needs his hand surgery paid for because he got his hand stuck in a grinder. And...the wealth of elite class is built on cheap labor...Chinese labor...they aren't giving that up to suddenly provide union style benefits to the 100 million americans without a college degree. Unions forced corporate overseas...but unions provide american wages and american benefits, family wages...the answer is clearly a cap on exorbitant wealth...but that genie is hard to put back in the bottle once it is let out.