Offensive line rotation from the man himself
- Thread starter kaz36
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Maybe we can finally put this one to rest. The starting 5 have to develop a comfort level and chemistry together which takes a lot of time. I keep hearing over and over that the contrast from first team to second was dramatic. Ideally we have 2 or 3 guys that can give the starters a rest here and there. Better yet, we're lighting it up and the 2nd team is in by the 3rd period of some games.
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anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi
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"Milt is a traitor against Osborne" "They are only letting him hang around for good P.R." "He is old and delusional".
These are real statements from the tradition coalition. So excuse me for making light of these bags of crap in our fanbase. All the whiners can say "move forward" all they want. But the well is poisoned. It's sad they can't see it.
These are real statements from the tradition coalition. So excuse me for making light of these bags of crap in our fanbase. All the whiners can say "move forward" all they want. But the well is poisoned. It's sad they can't see it.
Yea I gotta go with Milt on this one. Sorry to the guys here that think otherwise.
Apples and oranges.
1) Does NU have the same physical dominance now that it had in the 90's?
1b) Is the strength training = to what it was in the 90's? ( I like Philipp a lot actually, it wasn't his mess that caused what it is)
2) Is it really the same game it was in the 90's?
3) Is the 2016 Nu offense scheme similar to the 1995 scheme?
4) We won back then. We didn't last year.
5) How well did this system work for Milt in 2002? Everyone always wants to talk 1994 with Milt but no one ever brings up 2002
6) Milt was fired and many people forget that.
I ultimately agree with the sticking with your best, if you can. But one has to adjust during the season if things aren't working as planed. If you your top 5 guys aren't very good and the next 3 up are about the same, rotate. If you have 2 guys battling for the final guard spot up until the first game, then I don't think the loser sits the rest of the season. Milt recognized in the article he did use a "swing man". 1994 It was Steve Ott. He didn't play in the orange bowl because he was suspended or hurt (can't remember which one). He pointed out in 1997 he used Hoskinson & Julch. Trust me, there was always a swing guy.
Another thing that Milt pointed out in the article was that his lines during the 90's stayed pretty healthy. When was the last time NU wasn't hit by a ton of injuries?
Again, I am for playing the best, but if you have elite talent and your guys are healthy. Don't do this if one of your guys is banged up. Give him a breather. Also, stubborn coaches end up fired. If something isn't working, changes have to be made. No use in trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
1) Does NU have the same physical dominance now that it had in the 90's?
1b) Is the strength training = to what it was in the 90's? ( I like Philipp a lot actually, it wasn't his mess that caused what it is)
2) Is it really the same game it was in the 90's?
3) Is the 2016 Nu offense scheme similar to the 1995 scheme?
4) We won back then. We didn't last year.
5) How well did this system work for Milt in 2002? Everyone always wants to talk 1994 with Milt but no one ever brings up 2002
6) Milt was fired and many people forget that.
I ultimately agree with the sticking with your best, if you can. But one has to adjust during the season if things aren't working as planed. If you your top 5 guys aren't very good and the next 3 up are about the same, rotate. If you have 2 guys battling for the final guard spot up until the first game, then I don't think the loser sits the rest of the season. Milt recognized in the article he did use a "swing man". 1994 It was Steve Ott. He didn't play in the orange bowl because he was suspended or hurt (can't remember which one). He pointed out in 1997 he used Hoskinson & Julch. Trust me, there was always a swing guy.
Another thing that Milt pointed out in the article was that his lines during the 90's stayed pretty healthy. When was the last time NU wasn't hit by a ton of injuries?
Again, I am for playing the best, but if you have elite talent and your guys are healthy. Don't do this if one of your guys is banged up. Give him a breather. Also, stubborn coaches end up fired. If something isn't working, changes have to be made. No use in trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
I see you read the article... Did you forget or just conveniently ignore Milt's words saying there was a big difference between the starters and the 2s? Did you forget or did you just conveniently ignore Milt saying too many close games last year and he would have done the same as Cav?
A few quotes from Milt in the article...
"I've watched enough of his practices to know that he has the best five in there. There was quite a measurable difference between ones and twos," Tenopir said of last year. "Fortunately, he has a chance right now to have seven or eight or nine players to be ready to play this fall. But I'm not saying he's going to do that, because I'd do the same thing he'd did, I'd play my best five."
"We've always tried to play the best five," Tenopir said. "You don't put kids in just to worry about next year." Does this mean anything to you?
So to point number 6... Milt was great until 2002 and then he forgot how to coach and then he was fired? Nice how you reference 2002 when the Oline couldn't hold a candle to some other Olines in the conference, let alone other Olines from the huskers in the past.
This is not apples and oranges... Oline comparison across the board... When Milt had good enough swing players, he played them. When he didn't, he didn't play them. Just like Cav last year. This year will be more telling; if he doesn't get some other guys in, bitch all you want. By Milt's assessment, there are enough good players in the mix this year that should see some playing time apart from the 1s.
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anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi
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But everyone knows Milt knows nothing anymore.
Pretty sure we won't hear from spinner for a bit... His MO is to come in a crap on a thread and then leave for awhile. When he does finally come back he claims that he doesn't live in this board, that he has a life, which is why it took so long to respond. I questioned one of his posts last week... No response. Not surprised...
Anybody that's going to drop a parting shot like number six on Milton doesn't deserve much of a response.
While I am content to let Cav do the coaching, I do know that when I run my work teams, sometimes I have to let a less-capable guy or gal into the mix or run the risk of having a few superstars doing all the work and a bunch of other people not being effective and having low morale. Now, if a person is a lot less capable then no way do I let him near a customer, but if I have someone almost as capable as a superstar, I throw him a bone once in a while. Like someone posted before, if Cav has some almost-as-goods this year and they never see the field, I will question it.
Nick Gates got hurt. We had to cross over the disparaging talent/skill gap and play Sterup.
Chongo Kondolo got hurt. We had to cross over the disparaging talent/skill gap once again and play Long (?).
Oops, Kondolo's sore toe was earlier in the year and he ended up playing anyway. The 2nd team talent/skill gap player Sterup just straight up replaced the 1st string, chemistry at any cost Kondolo with 3 (?) games remaining in the regular season. Now from what I understand, Kondolo still played some in the remaining games, but we won't call it "rotation", because Cavanaugh doesn't rotate players. I find it amazing, Cavanaugh is such a genius. Who would have thought that your starting offensive lineman at tackle from the year before could slide over to be a starting offensive lineman at guard. Especially since Sterup was playing tackle as Gates replacement.
I find it pretty amazing that you know more Han cavanaugh and milt combined... Did you read the article or are you just complaining? Milt said there was a sizable talent gap between 1s and 2s. Maybe the change came due to an undisclosed injury... But this post sounds like either you didn't read the article, or you don't buy what Tenopir is selling...
I guess that's your right, but it does get frustrating when people complain that Tenopir would rotate players (and now milt says he didn't rotate all that much) people don't accept that answer. Even though it came from him.
Tenopir said he would have done the same thing as cavanaugh. But you know more than both of these coaches huh?
Edit: it also seems obvious that if anybody did replace someone on the Oline, cavanaugh wanted it to be Sterup, no matter what position. He was the best of the rest, so it would seem.
Perception vs reality are strange on this issue. In the '91 NU-OU game, #51 & #53 alternated at center throughout the game in a freezing rain. #53 even botched a snap with McCant and still got back in the game later. A walk-on feel good story named Chris Zyzda(sp?) spelled Will Shields for a few snaps on NU's first drive of the second half. In the '95 OB vs Miami, #51 (Humphreys?) spelled Aaron Graham for a few snaps on the long drive in the 3rd quarter led by Berringer that ended in a fumble. It's all there on YouTube video for everybody to see.
I remember reading a story about Aaron Taylor. He said that in the '94 Mizzou game, he was put in for a series, got the freshman jitters, blew an assignment and botched a 3rd down play. When he got back to the bench, TO told him (and other 2nd teamers, I think) something like "I put you in there to give the other guys are rest. When you're in there, I expect you do do your job." Taylor said that was the moment when he realized that any time he stepped on the field, he had to be ready to perform at the highest level.
Call me crazy, but all that looks and sounds like planned rotation to me.
Riley gave an interview 2-3 months ago. He said they never thought about rotation at OSU because they hardly ever had extra guys who could play. He said they were pretty happy if they could find five guys who played like starters. Having a sixth guy they trusted was a bonus, and having a seventh only happened once or twice during his tenure there. It's kind of a new issue for them.
I'm not sure why people think Milt would criticize the current coach publicly. That's bad form, unprofessional. Cav is The Man in charge of the OL right now, and Milt will treat him that way. My guess is that if NU continues to recruit the O-Line well, we'll see some back-ups sneak in there every now and then. How Cav will describe that is anybody's guess. Some talented depth will give Cav a new, and good, problem to solve.
I remember reading a story about Aaron Taylor. He said that in the '94 Mizzou game, he was put in for a series, got the freshman jitters, blew an assignment and botched a 3rd down play. When he got back to the bench, TO told him (and other 2nd teamers, I think) something like "I put you in there to give the other guys are rest. When you're in there, I expect you do do your job." Taylor said that was the moment when he realized that any time he stepped on the field, he had to be ready to perform at the highest level.
Call me crazy, but all that looks and sounds like planned rotation to me.
Riley gave an interview 2-3 months ago. He said they never thought about rotation at OSU because they hardly ever had extra guys who could play. He said they were pretty happy if they could find five guys who played like starters. Having a sixth guy they trusted was a bonus, and having a seventh only happened once or twice during his tenure there. It's kind of a new issue for them.
I'm not sure why people think Milt would criticize the current coach publicly. That's bad form, unprofessional. Cav is The Man in charge of the OL right now, and Milt will treat him that way. My guess is that if NU continues to recruit the O-Line well, we'll see some back-ups sneak in there every now and then. How Cav will describe that is anybody's guess. Some talented depth will give Cav a new, and good, problem to solve.
I see what you're saying, but you can support the coach without disparaging the players... He didn't need to say the gap was pretty large... Which leads me to believe he's not just blowing smoke.
And you can cherry pick games in which certain players got in, but was it a season long regular rotation? I don't know, which is why I'm asking. Milt says they didn't rotate much when he was coaching. Is he just making that up? Why do that just to make Cav look good?
Great points. In beating Miami with the 94 team, they ran Warren Sapp to exhaustion. Why is it generally accepted you have to rotate on d-line; but then this closed ming against o-line rotation. Again sometimes you can't . But if a starter wears down to 85 % effective; his 90% as good back-up can be an improvement and both will end up playing fresh against an opponent who is getting beat down. .... For recruiting, where do you want your kid to go? Dad says, " Go to N, they work you into games and develop you ". I hesitate to add; there are kids who are just " gamers "; they play better in games and somehow make the players around them better. Those of you who have played , know this to be true. GBR
N under T O used to aim to own the 4th quarter. There were methods to this.
N under T O used to aim to own the 4th quarter. There were methods to this.
I agree with you but what if the starter at 85% is still better than the backups, and you're just trying to win the game? You keep your starters in don't you? The truth is we never had enough separation in our games to get backups the meaningful snaps, and we needed to outscore our opponents the way our defense played last year.
The more talent we get on the Oline the more I think we will see some swing players used. Last year was not the year for that, but I could see us using more guys on the line his year than the starting five only.
I did read the article, and I wasn't complaining. Someone referenced injuries, I commented. I don't know as much as the coaches, that's your claim. I do accept Tenopir's answer. I didn't dispute it in my first post, not disputing it in this post. So, did you actually read my post or were just looking for a fight?
The past is in the past, now Cavanaugh is the coach. Cavanaugh can do as he chooses in terms of who plays, who doesn't play. If a coach speaks publicly about how important chemistry is and how much of a gap there is between first and second string, then two weeks later the coach replaces a 1st stringer with a 2nd stringer after building his chemistry for 9 games, I will be more than happy to make another comment on here.
I read your post as one who doesn't believe the coaches on the Oline situation. You confirmed it in this 2nd paragraph when you point out the whole importance of chemistry and the change made a few weeks later. Now maybe I misunderstood what you are trying to say here, but it sounds like you don't buy the explanation from the coaches. If I'm wrong, help me understand what you are saying.
Why was the switch made after 9 games? Who knows? Maybe there was an undisclosed injury that didn't prevent play, but did hinder quality of play. Maybe the 2nd stringer finally had the light bulb go on and he unseated the 1st stringer. I don't know why the change was made.
But one thing I do know is that THE guy just about every husker fan reveres, Milt Tenopir, defended Cavanaugh 100%. No longer can people use Milt's "rotation" in their argument against Cavanaugh, And if you want to act like there's some funny business going on with Cavanaugh and the Oline, calling into question what happened from game 9 to game 10, then I suggest you toughen up a little bit and expect some pushback.
Didn't Barney Cotton rotate the Offensive Line a lot more when he was coaching and wasn't there a lot more issues with bad snaps, missed assignments, and offside penalties than what took place last year under Cavanaugh? One of Cavanaugh's reasons for playing with the same 5 was to develop more continuity on the line which seemed to help reduce some of the penalties that happened from prior years.
I would like to see Cav sub more than he did last year if he has the horses this year to do it. That being said, it seemed Cotton and especially Callahan moved linemen around so much sometimes it was hard to know who was playing what when. I don't think that was good for continuity as you say.
Said since the beginning this was NEVER an issue when we ran for 300+ a game. It's the backup QB scenario. When we can't run the ball the backup linemen become popular. Only in Nebraska?
Checked some more. '94 NU vs CU, Humphrey spelled Aaron Graham for a several snaps in first half. Graham was All-Big Eight that year. '94 NU vs. West Virginia, a guy named Caskey replaced Rob Zatechka at LT for a series in first quarter. Zatechka was right back out there the next series. '92 NU vs KU, Ken Mehlin and Chris Zyzda alternated at LG in the first half, and Zatechka subbed for Zach Weigert at RT in the 2nd quarter for a series.
I'm not cherry picking, and it's not like I had to watch hours and hours of video to find these examples. Milt subbed, rotated, whatever you want to call it, and examples are easy to find. I picked games where the opponent was supposed to be strong and only used examples from when the game was still in doubt.
NU's quality depth on the O-Line was one of the ways it wore down opponents' defenses during that 90's run. Coaches, players, and fans talked about it every year. It was no secret.
Like I said before, I just don't think Milt is the type to criticize a current coach, even subtly. TO has never criticized Riley and likely never will. I don't think he ever criticized Callahan until he had the responsibility of firing him as AD. Milt is probably the same way. It would be divisive and counterproductive. Their only role now is to be supportive.
God bless Milt. God bless Cav. I think we're gonna be alright.
I'm not cherry picking, and it's not like I had to watch hours and hours of video to find these examples. Milt subbed, rotated, whatever you want to call it, and examples are easy to find. I picked games where the opponent was supposed to be strong and only used examples from when the game was still in doubt.
NU's quality depth on the O-Line was one of the ways it wore down opponents' defenses during that 90's run. Coaches, players, and fans talked about it every year. It was no secret.
Like I said before, I just don't think Milt is the type to criticize a current coach, even subtly. TO has never criticized Riley and likely never will. I don't think he ever criticized Callahan until he had the responsibility of firing him as AD. Milt is probably the same way. It would be divisive and counterproductive. Their only role now is to be supportive.
God bless Milt. God bless Cav. I think we're gonna be alright.
Really good post. Good research as well. Thanks for this.
I think one thing that helped Nebraska under Milt was the continuity over the years. We were a well oiled machine. We haven't been that on the line for a long time. It will be interesting to see if Cav can make us a well oiled machine as well to where we can see more subbing on the line in the future. If we continue to get the bodies and develop them, I like our chances for seeing some more backups getting playing time.
No. We were bad but not last. Actually got quite a bit better as the season wore on. Besides, the penalties on the line were significantly reduced, which is what the post you quoted was about. lots of defensive penalties.
You're correct, Neb with Milt as OL coach normally rotated lineman early in games . It didn't matter if we were down by 10 like 95 OB, up by 14 or tied, Milt (or TO?) usually subbed on the 3rd offensive series.
In the 98 Orange Bowl v. Tennessee, after two 3 & outs on offense, #62(Hoskinson?) subs for J. Zacheta(?).
2000-#2 OU v. #1 Neb, 3rd offensive series, #66(Rutherford) subs for Schuab
86 #3 ou v #5 Neb, 3rd offensive series #57(?) subs for Maggard
92 #8 CU v. #8 Neb 3rd offensive series #64 subs for Mehlin
You're also correct in that it really doesn't matter. Cav is the coach now & he should do what he believes. Milt is going to publically support the Neb OL coach. Nothing wrong with any of that.
Cavanaugh is the coach, he's going to do what he wants. No funny business, I think Cavanaugh either misread Sterup's ability relative to the 5 starters, or Cavanaugh was going to an extreme in making his big gap and chemistry statements. Kondolo played in every game last year, he was just replaced as the starter after the 9th game. Cavanaugh has said if you're good enough you'll play, Sterup played.
So does it matter that Milt Tenopir said we didn't rotate in defense of Cavanaugh. That other people cite games, series, players when rotation was occurring that can be confirmed by rewatching old games. In the end it doesn't matter, Cavanaugh is the coach, he's going to do what he wants.
You suggest I toughen up and expect pushback. I'm a Nebraska football fan posting on a Mike Riley fanbase website, I expect pushback on every post.
In the 70's NU rotated Brad Johnson in for Dave Rimmington. DR played his whole career without ACLs. Dave was a first round pick and Brad was a 2nd round pick. Brad actually started ahead of DR on the freshmen team until he blew out a shoulder. You rotate guys IF you have equal talent backing up, IF you have a more talented young guy with less experience, OR if there is an injury or conditioning issue.
There is a difference between rotation the offensive line and spelling players with reserves. A rotation is scheduling snaps for all included in the rotation. Spelling players for myriad different reasons happens EVERYWHERE and is a completely different thing.
I played defensive end at the collegiate level in the mid and late 2000's in a very good division 2 football conference. I don't recall any of the good teams generally rotating offensive linemen. The best played as many of the meaningful snaps as they were able to. We didn't do it either. When you're fighting to win a game, from a defensive player's perspective, and you look up and see 2 second-teamer offensive linemen in the game, you have to prepare yourself for the fact that there is a better probability that you'll be back on the field soon. You've gone against them in practice, you know they're not as good as the 1's. Likewise, if I went out on the field for a series and I saw the backup OT was in the game, I was feeling REALLY good about this series. I'm not saying either of those situations guaranteed success or lackthereof, but it made a difference for me mentally, and I know it did for many of my teammates as well. Hell, I would get nervous when our sophomore DTs rotated in on the defensive line because I knew I'd seem them on film and they were more likely to blow a gap responsibility and hurt us. I loved them, they were my guys, and they weren't bad players, but the speed of a live-fire game is something that cannot be simulated in practice and I was very aware of that their inexperience could hurt us. Arguing that this is a reason for giving meaningful snaps during a game to backups is silly. One blown gap responsibility can cost your team 30 yards or worse at anytime. I understand guys needs snaps, and the DL subs much more regularly, in general, than the OL, so they'll get theirs, but meaningful snaps when the game is on the line is NOT the time to be thinking about "development". I wanted the best players on both sides to play as many snaps as possible, and I think must players and coaches feel the same way.
Also, comparing the DL to the OL when discussing rotation probably shouldn't be done. They're very different position groups
I played defensive end at the collegiate level in the mid and late 2000's in a very good division 2 football conference. I don't recall any of the good teams generally rotating offensive linemen. The best played as many of the meaningful snaps as they were able to. We didn't do it either. When you're fighting to win a game, from a defensive player's perspective, and you look up and see 2 second-teamer offensive linemen in the game, you have to prepare yourself for the fact that there is a better probability that you'll be back on the field soon. You've gone against them in practice, you know they're not as good as the 1's. Likewise, if I went out on the field for a series and I saw the backup OT was in the game, I was feeling REALLY good about this series. I'm not saying either of those situations guaranteed success or lackthereof, but it made a difference for me mentally, and I know it did for many of my teammates as well. Hell, I would get nervous when our sophomore DTs rotated in on the defensive line because I knew I'd seem them on film and they were more likely to blow a gap responsibility and hurt us. I loved them, they were my guys, and they weren't bad players, but the speed of a live-fire game is something that cannot be simulated in practice and I was very aware of that their inexperience could hurt us. Arguing that this is a reason for giving meaningful snaps during a game to backups is silly. One blown gap responsibility can cost your team 30 yards or worse at anytime. I understand guys needs snaps, and the DL subs much more regularly, in general, than the OL, so they'll get theirs, but meaningful snaps when the game is on the line is NOT the time to be thinking about "development". I wanted the best players on both sides to play as many snaps as possible, and I think must players and coaches feel the same way.
Also, comparing the DL to the OL when discussing rotation probably shouldn't be done. They're very different position groups
Agreed. I don't think anyone wants to just be throwing 3-5 backup OL out there just for the sake of doing it. What they want is to have enough good guys available that you can give a guy a few plays or a series off now and then to have some fresh legs in the 4th. Sounds like they felt the liability of the backups' skill level was worse than the reward of getting the top guys some rest.
There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Was just watching the Football Life on Derrick Thomas and they were saying how he would dog it in practice and half ass so many reps, and he drove the coaches crazy. But on Sunday, he was Derrick Freaking Thomas. Some guys are like that, when the lights come on they're just on another level, and you might not know what you've got if you don't put them out there and see.
I get what they're saying, though, that they didn't have the luxury of a lead most times to be able to throw some #2 guys out there and see what they could do.
Great post. I knew I wasn't crazy in remembering that NU would mix in some backup OL and give starters a break during games.
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