Not sure if this is poor talent evaluation or development

[chicolby]

http://www.omaha.com/huskers/footba...cle_63df69a7-2338-5e39-9999-ce02761e5a14.html

Some NFL scouts predict one, maybe two Husker players to be drafted this year. I have to think this is more about talent evaluation and sub-par recruiting by our former staff, but could also argue that development plays a role.

Not surprising that this team won 7 and 9 games the past two seasons. Not until we get the right talent level in house can we expect to compete for a B1G championship. Good news, is that I think we are on the path to building the right talent now.

 

[Pennsyhusker]

http://www.omaha.com/huskers/footba...cle_63df69a7-2338-5e39-9999-ce02761e5a14.html

Some NFL scouts predict one, maybe two Husker players to be drafted this year. I have to think this is more about talent evaluation and sub-par recruiting by our former staff, but could also argue that development plays a role.

Not surprising that this team won 7 and 9 games the past two seasons. Not until we get the right talent level in house can we expect to compete for a B1G championship. Good news, is that I think we are on the path to building the right talent now.

Agreed. Like many on here I like to watch games now and then on YouTube from our glory days. I have been doing it a lot more lately. And what jumps out at you immediately was that those Husker teams from the 80's and 90's were strong, athletic, and played with speed... and even on some of the defenses that lacked speed in the 80's they always played "downhill" and swarmed to the ball. Those teams played with fierce tenacity with confidence and swagger.
Compare that with now and you can see a strong drop off in talent. I know I am stating the obvious, but man if you watch those games of old it really drives home how far we have fallen, and how far we have to go to be great again.

 

[swissticuffs]

It's both but moreso player development IMO.
Player development overall has not been up to par in the last 15 years or so.

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

It's both but moreso player development IMO.
Player development overall has not been up to par in the last 15 years or so.

Playerd have to want to get better.

 

[shine003]

What sucks for a school like Nebraska is that we don't have a large natural talent pool to draw off of. Which I know has been discussed ad nauseum, but I don't see it as a barrier to prevent us from becoming a power again but what it does is make it a longer road back than many other national powers. For the alabamas/Texas/USC types, they have the kids in their backyard that they can get to make quick recoveries on the national scene. Whereas for us, it needs to be a gradual process. Our brand, facilities and fan support will always get us in the door to allow us to get good athletes from across the country assuming we have a good coaching staff, but it's going to take a gradual improvement of talent, that will gradually lead to increased success which can then be used to entice more elite recruits to Nebraska. Unfortunately this requires patience from the administration and fan base. Our coaches are doing great but it's still going to take time

 

[dockentwo]

What sucks for a school like Nebraska is that we don't have a large natural talent pool to draw off of. Which I know has been discussed ad nauseum, but I don't see it as a barrier to prevent us from becoming a power again but what it does is make it a longer road back than many other national powers. For the alabamas/Texas/USC types, they have the kids in their backyard that they can get to make quick recoveries on the national scene. Whereas for us, it needs to be a gradual process. Our brand, facilities and fan support will always get us in the door to allow us to get good athletes from across the country assuming we have a good coaching staff, but it's going to take a gradual improvement of talent, that will gradually lead to increased success which can then be used to entice more elite recruits to Nebraska. Unfortunately this requires patience from the administration and fan base. Our coaches are doing great but it's still going to take time

Nice comments. I have some subjective opinions a little more off the wall.
- The recruiting changes that are really ongoing are going to stop some SEC type practices of basically baskets full of recruits and dropping them if not second string as sophomores. Early signing period means less playing players while adjusting the basket; kids should demand to commit or move on early.
- So top talent is going to get spread about earlier in cycle. With TV money and Big Ten type situations, more teams are going to be fairly close to physical facilities and overall coaching talent is evening out.
- We are really concentrating on character and NFL type play. This will help with recruits and they will be more NFL ready. We are raising the bar on what partying is allowed and what type of characters can be on the team.
- Its been covered how a former coach poisoned the well; but it seems there was a Colorado Rocky Mountains high attitude and such that had to be removed or cycled through and on. Look at all the issues that came up - and even TA ( house issues ) and Gerry probably hurt themselves.
- Our Dline talent thats recently in the Pros tells me you can be developed here - I can buy there was a problem with a former coach : But Coach Paralla is the real deal on multiple levels; we are bringing it baby.....
- With success our increased recruiting talent; is going top overall level. At that point you can field a Team with the top two strings can play with anyone on any given day. Only 22 on the field at a time. GBR

 

[TruHusker]

Chicken or the egg? Genetics or coaching? NU has the talent or not?

Coaching can only do so much, you have to posses the physical traits to be good and build upon them. If it were not true then just recruit a lot of really hard working kids from anywhere USA and develop them. You have to have the special DNA to work with. Coaches cannot develop over the level of physical capability of a given player. It is like the argument I used with kids and parents - do you believe you can be anything you want to be - most will say yes. Then I ask them what you would tell Shaquile ONeil when he says he wants to be a jockey. He was made to be a basketball player - period.

I hope someday we can put all of this talent verses coaching thing to rest for the last couple of years anyway. Our players are not showing up on watch lists, AA teams, All League teams or NFL for that matter. One would have to say that either they reached their physical limits or the coaches didn't know how to get there. I believe we have been woefully short on the talent side of things for several years and it is going to take several more years to get it back.

Pennsy is right and I have commented on here about watching old films and the stark contrast. The physical skills those players had was amazing. Watching a highlight of then verses now is not even comparable. We have seen some excellent recruits in some areas of the team but until it is across the board, you will always have those holes in the system. The thread about being a top 10-15 O and D won't happen until you have the studs at every position. Weaknesses are exploited and you are done.

 

[swissticuffs]

Playerd have to want to get better.

Agreed. Players at NU do not want to get better?

 

[TheBeav815]

Variety of things. Part of it was that players didn't keep clean. Part of it was player retention. That DL class in particular had tons of promise but a whole lot of quit in them. Here's your 2012 class (247 Ratings):

Paul Thurston 4* - Dunno where he is now, did he transfer?

Greg McMullen 4* - Good player, got in his feelings and quit football

Imani Cross 4* - Solid contributor, IMO he was ill-suited to a zone-based running scheme

Jordan Westerkamp 4* - Very productive multi-year starter. Hard luck knee injury ruined his shot at getting drafted.

Michael Rose-Ivey 4* - Solid contributor and starter

Tommy Armstrong 4* - Starter, very productive, not a pro-style QB

Jared Afalava 4* - What ever happened to this guy?

Mohammed Seisay (JUCO) 4* - Played but never really lived up to the hype

Alonzo Moore 3* - Very good contributor, had nagging shoulder issues

Vincent Valentine 3* - Has a Super Bowl ring

Zaire Anderson (JUCO) 3* - Also has a Super Bowl ring, doe he not?

Aaron Curry 3* - Showed some promise but transferred to TCU to chase PT, ironically right before a ton of PT opened up. Looks like he played last year, had 5.5 sacks.

Thomas Brown 3* - I don't even know who this guy is. Looks like maybe he didn't qualify, went JUCO and then went to Memphis?

Avery Moss 3* - Really promising DE until he turned into some kind of weirdo flasher and got banned from campus

Sam Cotton 3* - Multi-year contributor. Hard to place a value on TEs with the inability to get the ball to them consistently.

LeRoy Alexander 3* - Looked like he was gonna be a stud until (or maybe because) he got into juicing. Followed Bo to YSU and was 1st Team All-Conference in 2016. Doesn't look likely to be drafted.

 

[anon_umk0ifu6vj6zi]

Agreed. Players at NU do not want to get better?

In the last few years, there were some that never got over the guy that recruited them getting what he wanted.
Like it or not that is fact. The team was so mentally fragile.

 

[dockentwo]

Agreed. Players at NU do not want to get better?

Anyone remember the sayings that Coach T O developed players so well that it hurt their draft chances or abilities on the next level ? I would hear that and think : " When is he supposed to develop them, and if Pro tryouts are a matter of weeks, how is that development ?"

 

[93sker]

Epley said in Dec. 2015 the Huskers needed 2 things to happen to re-establish themselves:

1). Recruit better
2). 1 1/2 years in the weight room with Coach Phillips

Recruiting is obviously on the upswing -

Any good intel regarding #2? The 1 1/2 time table quoted by Epley in Dec. '15 is next month....

 

[TheBeav815]

Now your 2013 Class (247 Ratings:

Terrell Newby 4* - Multi-year starter, should get a sniff as a free agent. Took a while to find his confidence and running style.

Randy Gregory (JUCO) 4* - Early NFL draftee, loooooooves weed.

Adam Taylor 4* - Broke his leg and was never the same again after initially generating a lot of noise as a scout teamer.

Josh Banderas 4* - Up and down career, solid player but never mind blowing

Johnny Stanton 4* - Elite 11 QB, didn't pan out, transferred to Nevada and was mediocre there.

Marcus Newby 4* - Tons of athleticism, seems to have struggled with scheme

A.J. Natter 4* - Is he still on the team?

D.J. Singleton 3* - I don't know who this is. Looks like he was on the team but now he's at Northern Iowa?

David Knevel 3* - Plenty athletic, but perhaps lacking in nastiness. Has struggled to hold his starting job at RT.

Courtney Love 3* - Just a Youngstown boy who got poached over to Kentucky. Decent amount of tackles in 2016, no sacks, no INTs, 1 FF.

Maliek Collins 3* - Highly productive starter, early NFL draftee.

Zach Hannon 3* - Just transferred, yes?

Cethan Carter 3* - Great athlete, might sell his soul to have a redshirt year so he could be Tanner Lee's TE...you'd have to ask him. What a crime we couldn't get the ball to a kid this good.

Nate Gerry 3* - Got a year of his time wasted at BUCK LB before being a multi-year starter at S. Sounds like he got his diva on as his career wore on and decided to quit on his team and skip the bowl game. Will get drafted anyhow, very productive player.

Greg Hart 3* - Stop me if you've heard this one...Ohio kid, committed to NU, now plays for Kentucky. Caught 6 passes last year.

Kevin Gladney 3* - Transferred out (was he kicked out?) and had 3 catches in 2 games for Akron last year.

Matt Finnin (JUCO) 3* - Graduated, never really played

Boaz Joseph 3* - Hasn't played much so far

Dwayne Johnson 3* - Didn't play, graduated, is transferring

Ernest Suttles 3* - Transferred to Memphis

Kevin Maurice 3* - Solid contributor and starter. 2016 Honorable Mention All-B1G, not projected to be drafted. Should get a look as UDFA.

Chongo Kondolo 3* - Played, many thought should have played more.

Gabriel Miller 2* - Long snapper. Dunno if he's still around, if so I assume he's long snapping?

 

[jlb321]

Given the current environment kids are coming into programs much more polished than they did a decade or 2 ago. Much more specialization, ie a lot of kids are focusing only on football or other sports ie track for the sole purpose of improving their football skills. High school strength and conditioning programs which were nonexistent or quite rudimentary in the past are now very sophisticated. You have increased coaching staffs in high schools (ie position coaches which were rare decades ago).

The bottom line is that kids are entering programs much nearer to their "ceiling" than they did in the past and therefore the opportunity to develop them is less.

Less and less offensive line coaches are watching basketball games to discover athletic big guys (like Milt did back in the day) because talented D1 type offensive lineman aren't playing basketball as much - they are in winter conditioning and working on line drills

This ties in nicely with the redshirting discussion - probably not as great a need to redshirt players as they no longer require as much development

 

[GretnaShawn]

Now your 2013 Class (247 Ratings:

T
A.J. Natter 4* - Is he still on the team? Yes



Zach Hannon 3* - Just transferred, yes? Gone.


Gabriel Miller 2* - Long snapper. Dunno if he's still around, if so I assume he's long snapping? Medically retired, IIRC.

 

[GretnaShawn]

"TheBeav815, post: 3459847, member: 9404"]Variety of things. Part of it was that players didn't keep clean. Part of it was player retention. That DL class in particular had tons of promise but a whole lot of quit in them. Here's your 2012 class (247 Ratings):

Paul Thurston 4* - Dunno where he is now, did he transfer? Colorado State?


Jared Afalava 4* - What ever happened to this guy? Wasn't he and Suttles and a Brown (?) in a fight where one of them hit the other in the head with a liquor bottle?

Mohammed Seisay (JUCO) 4* - Played but never really lived up to the hype In the NFL.

Thomas Brown 3* - I don't even know who this guy is. Looks like maybe he didn't qualify, went JUCO and then went to Memphis? Was the bottle to the head guy?

 

[TheBeav815]

Mohammed Seisay (JUCO) 4* - Played but never really lived up to the hype In the NFL.

Hmm, my mistake. I remember him being a guy who got bigtime buzz like he was gonna be the next Fabian Washington or whatever, and he didn't seem to quite put it all together like that. But sounds like it's together enough for him to be getting NFL paychecks...

 

[swissticuffs]

In the last few years, there were some that never got over the guy that recruited them getting what he wanted.
Like it or not that is fact. The team was so mentally fragile.

I am in agreement that there was a toxic situation at the end...there is audio evidence of it.

But what about the years before BP melted down?
Just look at the body types, the on field performance, and NFL draft results.

There was a time when NU was near the top..if not #1 in development. Now they might be top 25? Maybe? Not sure.

I know losing icons hurts but how is it that the player makeup has regressed so much?

You could take NU from 90/91/92...pretty good teams but certainly not great..... Those teams would, for the most part, handle the team being fielded this Fall.

How many other teams can say that? It's strange to me.

 

[jlb321]

I am in agreement that there was a toxic situation at the end...there is audio evidence of it.

But what about the years before BP melted down?
Just look at the body types, the on field performance, and NFL draft results.

There was a time when NU was near the top..if not #1 in development. Now they might be top 25? Maybe? Not sure.

I know losing icons hurts but how is it that the player makeup has regressed so much?

You could take NU from 90/91/92...pretty good teams but certainly not great..... Those teams would, for the most part, handle the team being fielded this Fall.

How many other teams can say that? It's strange to me.

as above I think there is much less room for talent development than there was nearly 3 decades ago - you better be able to recognize and recruit talent in the present rather than trying to look for potential talent with the idea - "putting stars on kids"

 

[dinglefritz]

"TheBeav815, post: 3459847, member: 9404"]Variety of things. Part of it was that players didn't keep clean. Part of it was player retention. That DL class in particular had tons of promise but a whole lot of quit in them. Here's your 2012 class (247 Ratings):

Paul Thurston 4* - Dunno where he is now, did he transfer? Colorado State?


Jared Afalava 4* - What ever happened to this guy? Wasn't he and Suttles and a Brown (?) in a fight where one of them hit the other in the head with a liquor bottle?

Mohammed Seisay (JUCO) 4* - Played but never really lived up to the hype In the NFL.

Thomas Brown 3* - I don't even know who this guy is. Looks like maybe he didn't qualify, went JUCO and then went to Memphis? Was the bottle to the head guy?

Seisay is still listed on the Seahawks roster. Not sure why he couldn't get on the field much for Bo other than that his defensive scheme was not player friendly. People bitched about Callahan's playbook loved Bo's lol. Bo's defensive scheme was at least as difficult as Callahan's offense for a player to learn. Bo REALLY had to reach on some guys with character issues because he was a lazy recruiter AND his public perception turned a ton of recruits and their parents off.

 

[jflores]

What's really weird about QB play and Pelini era recruiting is that Pelini was generally pretty successful in bringing in a 4* QB as the headliner.

Yes we took Carnes and Bush as filler or project, but Green, Armstrong, Darlington, Stanton were all 4* guys.

Yet basically for most of his era, a 2* athlete named Martinez ended up playing QB as the best available option.

 

[TheBeav815]

What's really weird about QB play and Pelini era recruiting is that Pelini was generally pretty successful in bringing in a 4* QB as the headliner.

Yes we took Carnes and Bush as filler or project, but Green, Armstrong, Darlington, Stanton were all 4* guys.

Yet basically for most of his era, a 2* athlete named Martinez ended up playing QB as the best available option.

It's that old debate of passing QB vs running QB vs "dual threat" QB. Good God, I just remembered that Taylor Martinez was supposed to play Safety.

 

[NYC-Husker]

It's that old debate of passing QB vs running QB vs "dual threat" QB. Good God, I just remembered that Taylor Martinez was supposed to play Safety.

That's actually really interesting. He was so bad going into contact that I imagine he would have been a horrible safety (at least the tackling part). That said, maybe his speed would have put him in position to make a few plays on the ball on occasion.

He was an interesting player to watch b/c he had incredible straight-line speed, but zero lateral quickness, and was so awkward going into contact. I imagine if he had just wrestled in high school or junior high for a year, he would have understood how to go into contact, but I guess you never know.

 

[TheBeav815]

That's actually really interesting. He was so bad going into contact that I imagine he would have been a horrible safety (at least the tackling part). That said, maybe his speed would have put him in position to make a few plays on the ball on occasion.

He was an interesting player to watch b/c he had incredible straight-line speed, but zero lateral quickness, and was so awkward going into contact. I imagine if he had just wrestled in high school or junior high for a year, he would have understood how to go into contact, but I guess you never know.

Part of that, I think, was a product of putting the green jersey on the QBs so much. They never get tackled and then it looks really weird when they're finally in a real game, they look like they haven't been hit in 9 months.

He was a strange, strange phenomenon. As a Freshman I remember him putting a foot in the ground and just being GONE. Like scary fast. And his mesh on the zone-read was incredible, you'd be SURE the back had the ball, and then Martinez was just gone.

The longer it went on, the weirder it got. He was never the same after that first ankle injury. Not as fast and definitely not as decisive.

 

[TruHusker]

Anyone remember the sayings that Coach T O developed players so well that it hurt their draft chances or abilities on the next level ? I would hear that and think : " When is he supposed to develop them, and if Pro tryouts are a matter of weeks, how is that development ?"

I brought that up a while back on here as well. I think that was attributed to Gil Brandt. The context was that generally speaking, Nebraska players were maximizing their abilities compared to other players that had room to develop. I would really like to be looked at like that once again.

 

[Suhrreal]

That's actually really interesting. He was so bad going into contact that I imagine he would have been a horrible safety (at least the tackling part). That said, maybe his speed would have put him in position to make a few plays on the ball on occasion.

He was an interesting player to watch b/c he had incredible straight-line speed, but zero lateral quickness, and was so awkward going into contact. I imagine if he had just wrestled in high school or junior high for a year, he would have understood how to go into contact, but I guess you never know.

It's very strange because he played in SoCal at Centennnial. From what I've seen, most of those kids play very physical. I think Vontaze Burfict went to that school as well.

 

[GretnaShawn]

Hmm, my mistake. I remember him being a guy who got bigtime buzz like he was gonna be the next Fabian Washington or whatever, and he didn't seem to quite put it all together like that. But sounds like it's together enough for him to be getting NFL paychecks...

I think he battled injuries the majority of his Nebraska career.

 

[dinglefritz]

http://www.omaha.com/huskers/footba...cle_63df69a7-2338-5e39-9999-ce02761e5a14.html

Some NFL scouts predict one, maybe two Husker players to be drafted this year. I have to think this is more about talent evaluation and sub-par recruiting by our former staff, but could also argue that development plays a role.

Not surprising that this team won 7 and 9 games the past two seasons. Not until we get the right talent level in house can we expect to compete for a B1G championship. Good news, is that I think we are on the path to building the right talent now.

Gerry had been touted by some as 2nd round talent. Now we see he's rated by most analysts anywhere from 19-24. Carter is ranked in the mid teens. Our QB play and injuries IMO hurt his chances. I'm afraid we're going to get shut out in the draft but I expect Carter to make a roster. No doubt Gerry will get signed as a FA. When those are your top 2 senior players....well I think it's about more than development.. The NFL loves to draft untapped potential.

 

[TruHusker]

This draft seems to be loaded with TE's in the first round. That has to drop Carter's stock just because of supply and demand. It appears that teams are wanting that TE type they can move outside in the slot and such. Carter could fit there although we didn't use him there that much. We had to keep him in for blocking.

 

[huskerfan1414]

Hmm, my mistake. I remember him being a guy who got bigtime buzz like he was gonna be the next Fabian Washington or whatever, and he didn't seem to quite put it all together like that. But sounds like it's together enough for him to be getting NFL paychecks...

This in itself is proof that development still matters. Bos staff couldnt get him ready for whatever reason. Then hes starting in the NFL. Yes, he did start one or two seasons for the Lions.

 

[huskerfan1414]

I think development does matter and has an effect on nebraska but we also have to take a change in coaching staffs and schemes into account. That can play a factor and hinder development. We also have players on our roster who would get drafted this weekend had they been eligible, such as jones.
Recruiting and development both matter, a lot. I know, captain obvious.