JD and Jaevon

[GBRforLife1]

I think Mike Riley might have been the worst coaching hire in school history and I am thrilled to see him gone, but even I’m not willing to give Frost 8 years worth of free lap dances.

if Frost is really worth $5 mil per year, he shouldn’t need the excuse well to be dug so deep that we claim his predecessor tried to kill the program. Good Lord.

LOL I might have been a little extreme, but with Riley's horrendous recruiting and culture we're basically starting over from zero and if you think another coach could fix it in 2 years I'd love to hear about them. Idk if Frost can fix it, but I'll give him time - especially if he keeps recruiting well. Look how long we put up with Pelini.

 

[PeliniTheCrutch]

LOL I might have been a little extreme, but with Riley's horrendous recruiting and culture we're basically starting over from zero and if you think another coach could fix it in 2 years I'd love to hear about them. Idk if Frost can fix it, but I'll give him time - especially if he keeps recruiting well. Look how long we put up with Pelini.

Dude, Pelini won...like in the fall, not just the off-season.

 

[GBRforLife1]

Dude, Pelini won...like in the fall, not just the off-season.

Right. While doing a poor job recruiting and being a total dick. I liked him.

 

[John_J_Rambo]

Dude, Pelini won...like in the fall, not just the off-season.

Quick! List pelini’s 5 best wins.

then, with a straight face, tell everyone how much he ‘won’.

 

[husker2612]

LOL I might have been a little extreme, but with Riley's horrendous recruiting and culture we're basically starting over from zero and if you think another coach could fix it in 2 years I'd love to hear about them. Idk if Frost can fix it, but I'll give him time - especially if he keeps recruiting well. Look how long we put up with Pelini.

I don't understand the from zero logic. I know MR instilled horrible culture, work ethic, and mentality on this team. I know attrition has destroyed depth. I know Frost is still a young coach and learning the P5 ropes. He still had more talent on this team as a whole that many BIG10 teams have. At least enough to not lose to a horrible Purdue team last or Troy the year before.
Anyways, for fun sake lets say Frost did start from scratch, zero, no talent. Lets assume from a development and mentality stand point every player on this team were Freshman when Frost walked onto campus. How long should that take to build a Iowa level program 7, 8 9 wins? How long to build a championship level program? Factoring in everything else as the same, recruiting, coaching changes, program history ect.
Assuming it takes a couple years to develop most guys I would think by year 3 or 4 you should be able to have enough depth and talent development to play sound, competent football. Championship level shouldn't take much longer maybe another year or so. For those who think a ground level, start from 0 rebuild should take longer, why? Also how long should it take?

 

[AhliBobwa]

Maybe because we were 5-7 last year and Minnesota finished 10-3? Why strengthen them more?

I get what you’re saying, and part of me agrees, time to move on... but why help a conference foe?

Minnesota actually went 11-2 last year.

 

[GBRforLife1]

I don't understand the from zero logic. I know MR instilled horrible culture, work ethic, and mentality on this team. I know attrition has destroyed depth. I know Frost is still a young coach and learning the P5 ropes. He still had more talent on this team as a whole that many BIG10 teams have. At least enough to not lose to a horrible Purdue team last or Troy the year before.
Anyways, for fun sake lets say Frost did start from scratch, zero, no talent. Lets assume from a development and mentality stand point every player on this team were Freshman when Frost walked onto campus. How long should that take to build a Iowa level program 7, 8 9 wins? How long to build a championship level program? Factoring in everything else as the same, recruiting, coaching changes, program history ect.
Assuming it takes a couple years to develop most guys I would think by year 3 or 4 you should be able to have enough depth and talent development to play sound, competent football. Championship level shouldn't take much longer maybe another year or so. For those who think a ground level, start from 0 rebuild should take longer, why? Also how long should it take?

The bolded snippet shows you do understand, but are choosing to discount it.

Idk how you figure Frost has more talent on this team than many Big 10 teams. If you took all of LSU's freshman and put them on their own team would you expect them to win 7, 8, 9 games in the Big 10?

In year 3 you'd be going into competition with guys who had been in the program 2 years or less. Many played 1 year and most didn't play a lot. You have 1 proven QB who's 2nd year was a mixed bag probably due to injury. And you expect them to compete with established programs going against 4th and 5th year players and come out with a 75% win percentage?

 

[timnsun]

I don't understand the from zero logic. I know MR instilled horrible culture, work ethic, and mentality on this team. I know attrition has destroyed depth. I know Frost is still a young coach and learning the P5 ropes. He still had more talent on this team as a whole that many BIG10 teams have. At least enough to not lose to a horrible Purdue team last or Troy the year before.
Anyways, for fun sake lets say Frost did start from scratch, zero, no talent. Lets assume from a development and mentality stand point every player on this team were Freshman when Frost walked onto campus. How long should that take to build a Iowa level program 7, 8 9 wins? How long to build a championship level program? Factoring in everything else as the same, recruiting, coaching changes, program history ect.
Assuming it takes a couple years to develop most guys I would think by year 3 or 4 you should be able to have enough depth and talent development to play sound, competent football. Championship level shouldn't take much longer maybe another year or so. For those who think a ground level, start from 0 rebuild should take longer, why? Also how long should it take?

Agree, mostly, but look at the misses from year 1... if we had relatively no misses, year 3 would be juniors and redshirt Sophs, going up against programs that have 4 and 5 year seniors... maybe we do well, but I can see a pathway leading to struggling.

 

[schuele]

LOL I might have been a little extreme, but with Riley's horrendous recruiting and culture we're basically starting over from zero and if you think another coach could fix it in 2 years I'd love to hear about them. Idk if Frost can fix it, but I'll give him time - especially if he keeps recruiting well. Look how long we put up with Pelini.

I never said Riley wasn't terrible (he was!), or that Frost should fix it all in two years. But Frost has to be held accountable at some point, and 8 years seems a bit extreme to me.

 

[husker2612]

The bolded snippet shows you do understand, but are choosing to discount it.

Idk how you figure Frost has more talent on this team than many Big 10 teams. If you took all of LSU's freshman and put them on their own team would you expect them to win 7, 8, 9 games in the Big 10?

In year 3 you'd be going into competition with guys who had been in the program 2 years or less. Many played 1 year and most didn't play a lot. You have 1 proven QB who's 2nd year was a mixed bag probably due to injury. And you expect them to compete with established programs going against 4th and 5th year players and come out with a 75% win percentage?

I do understand Frost walked into a program with problems. My thing is anytime there is a coaching change odds are the new coach is going to have issues to deal with. A great coach is able to recognize those issues, fix them or work with them and get the most out of the players he has. imo I don't think Frost has been able to do that. He seems to have this mentality that he must have his guys only to have success.
Another thing is I see programs who one could argue is or was in worse shape and had a bigger whole to dig out of. IE Iowa St, NC, Alabama before Saban took over look similar to what we have seen the last 10 years. Mn last year, MN had one of the youngest rosters in the country the last 2 years. Iowa St has had 1 9 win season and 5 winning seasons since 2000 and far less talent to pick from when it comes to recruiting. NC had 5 wins in 2 years prior to Brown getting there. He also has dealt with a ton of attrition his first year, but managed to get them to a bowl and a winning record year 1. These programs found at least moderate success/growth by year 1,2 or 3.
Don't get me wrong Im not calling for Frosts head, far from it. It do agree he should be given more than 3 or 4 years to get this figured out. I just don't understand the logic in thinking it should take more than that to show good progress.

 

[timnsun]

I do understand Frost walked into a program with problems. My thing is anytime there is a coaching change odds are the new coach is going to have issues to deal with. A great coach is able to recognize those issues, fix them or work with them and get the most out of the players he has. imo I don't think Frost has been able to do that. He seems to have this mentality that he must have his guys only to have success.
Another thing is I see programs who one could argue is or was in worse shape and had a bigger whole to dig out of. IE Iowa St, NC, Alabama before Saban took over look similar to what we have seen the last 10 years. Mn last year, MN had one of the youngest rosters in the country the last 2 years. Iowa St has had 1 9 win season and 5 winning seasons since 2000 and far less talent to pick from when it comes to recruiting. NC had 5 wins in 2 years prior to Brown getting there. He also has dealt with a ton of attrition his first year, but managed to get them to a bowl and a winning record year 1. These programs found at least moderate success/growth by year 1,2 or 3.
Don't get me wrong Im not calling for Frosts head, far from it. It do agree he should be given more than 3 or 4 years to get this figured out. I just don't understand the logic in thinking it should take more than that to show good progress.

I think the bigger issue is your statement that if it doesn’t happen this year it never will with Frost.

 

[husker2612]

I think the bigger issue is your statement that if it doesn’t happen this year it never will with Frost.

Not saying it will never happen. Anything can happen. Frost very well could struggle for another year or 2, blow up and go on to win 10 NC. Saying when you look at history and data it suggest the odds are drastically reduced, if a coach can't at least win the division by year 3. Now mind you this was of coaches who had won a NC. Frost could also have a very long successful career here, with tons of 10,11, 12 win season, Conf championships, and playoff births, but just maybe no NC.

 

[Jhollenbeck41]

I'm waiting until after Year 5 to judge anything

 

[bshirt73]

Quick! List pelini’s 5 best wins.

then, with a straight face, tell everyone how much he ‘won’.

How about 9 or 10 wins for seven years as our HC? That he could do that despite being sandwiched between the Callahan & Smiling Mike losing machines surely shows you something?

 

[timnsun]

How about 9 or 10 wins for seven years as our HC? That he could do that despite being sandwiched between the Callahan & Smiling Mike losing machines surely shows you something?

I don’t know... Callahan at least left him with a full cupboard, and Riley had no impact whatsoever on Pelini. Not saying Pelini didn’t show that he could coach, he obviously could against most teams. Just don’t think his place between Callahan and Riley is that big of a deal.

 

[timnsun]

Not saying it will never happen. Anything can happen. Frost very well could struggle for another year or 2, blow up and go on to win 10 NC. Saying when you look at history and data it suggest the odds are drastically reduced, if a coach can't at least win the division by year 3. Now mind you this was of coaches who had won a NC. Frost could also have a very long successful career here, with tons of 10,11, 12 win season, Conf championships, and playoff births, but just maybe no NC.

Sorry, I thought somewhere you posted something like, “if we don’t win 8 games this year, it’ll never happen” referring to NCs.

 

[John_J_Rambo]

How about 9 or 10 wins for seven years as our HC? That he could do that despite being sandwiched between the Callahan & Smiling Mike losing machines surely shows you something?

Empty wins mean nothing.

His best win was a loss to Texas in the Big 12 title game. Sad.

 

[TruHusker]

So, help me understand all of this banter, time line, cause and effect.

Solich was fired because his recruiting was falling off and the program was headed down from what he was left with from Tom.
Callahan could recruit but couldn't coach, teams were not good but good talent was recruited, especially on D and he brought in a WC O.
Bo comes in and uses Callahan talent and wins at least 9 a year, did better with Callahan recruits and as time went on his recruiting fell off as well and he left the cupboard bare for the next guy while bringing in more of a spread O.
Riley comes along with a bare cupboard from Bo's poor recruiting and struggles the first year, has a rated team his second with a QB not made for his Pro Set O and then falters in year three and is fired. He didn't recruit any better than Bo.
Frost comes in with a bare cupboard from the Riley years and hasn't won more any more games in his first two years than Riley or Bill but the recruiting is getting better.

Is this a fair summary? Not making a statement, just trying to summarize.

 

[timnsun]

So, help me understand all of this banter, time line, cause and effect.

Solich was fired because his recruiting was falling off and the program was headed down from what he was left with from Tom.
Callahan could recruit but couldn't coach, teams were not good but good talent was recruited, especially on D and he brought in a WC O.
Bo comes in and uses Callahan talent and wins at least 9 a year, did better with Callahan recruits and as time went on his recruiting fell off as well and he left the cupboard bare for the next guy while bringing in more of a spread O.
Riley comes along with a bare cupboard from Bo's poor recruiting and struggles the first year, has a rated team his second with a QB not made for his Pro Set O and then falters in year three and is fired. He didn't recruit any better than Bo.
Frost comes in with a bare cupboard from the Riley years and hasn't won more any more games in his first two years than Riley or Bill but the recruiting is getting better.

Is this a fair summary? Not making a statement, just trying to summarize.

I think this is fair...

I feel like the reason for Riley’s success in year 2 has to do with Pelini’s players... they were mentally tough enough to win the close ones. Guys like Armstrong, as frustrating as he was, also were able to pull out games against teams like minnesota. Once those players were graduating, we didn’t have enough to keep it going.

But I think your summary is pretty spot on.

 

[husker2612]

Sorry, I thought somewhere you posted something like, “if we don’t win 8 games this year, it’ll never happen” referring to NCs.

I did say this

Agree, this seems to be a tipping point type of year, like you said probably not for Frost but for the program and the current players/ recruits. You can only sell "rebuild" for so long. Eventually these players are just not going to believe it anymore and look elsewhere. I think we must get to 8 wins this year to show significant progress and that things are going in the right direction.

I do think 8 wins are important this year and a number the program needs to hit to at the very least go along with the 3 year NC HC data. I don't think it is an end all be all however. Now if we fail to at least make a bowl this year I may be more confident to make predictions Frost isn't going to get it done here. I would venture to guess there isn't a coach that has had 3 losing season and later when on to win a NC with that school.