Hard to watch but notice the BYU coach coaching on the last play...

[Tulsa Tom]

When Riley called the last time out it gave the BYU offensive coordinator time to tell Mangum exactly what to do. Hold in the pocket and then come out to the right. Gangwish played right into this.

Watch the :37 mark on the video.

 

[headcard]

How do you see that at the 37 second mark? I saw coaches on both sides talking to their players during the timeout, which is normal, but you can't tell what they are saying in the video you posted.

 

[Tulsa Tom]

The coach has his fist out as if it is the ball and then tells the qb to roll to the right. It's exactly what the qb does giving him plenty of time and space to see the field and throw the ball.

 

[jteten]

Yes, because that timeout is why BYU caught a Hail Mary.........

 

[Tulsa Tom]

Noooooooo...it did show that getting the qb outside of contain was important to that play, however. Some were poo pooing this idea earlier.

 

[jflores]

When Riley called the last time out it gave the BYU offensive coordinator time to tell Mangum exactly what to do. Hold in the pocket and then come out to the right. Gangwish played right into this.

Watch the :37 mark on the video.

View embedded media

It also helps that the QB throws right handed.

It could have been Jadaveon Clowney on the edge and Pee Wee Herman coaching him up, and he'd have probably still rolled right. Most true freshman aren't going to roll across their body and set and throw at a distance like that naturally.

And I'm sure Banker tapping dudes on helmets was like "game's over boys, take it easy".

 

[Tulsa Tom]

It also helps that the QB throws right handed.

It could have been Jadaveon Clowney on the edge and Pee Wee Herman coaching him up, and he'd have probably still rolled right. Most true freshman aren't going to roll across their body and set and throw at a distance like that naturally.

And I'm sure Banker tapping dudes on helmets was like "game's over boys, take it easy".

What does Banker have to do with anything. This isn't a criticism of him or anyone else. It just shows that if we had kept some contain that throw is a lot more difficult.

BTW...Banker said after the game he wanted Gangwish to keep contain.

"Everyone recognizes that NU botched some things on the back end, with nobody in front of the receiver to bat the ball harmlessly to the turf. But just as big, in Banker's view, was allowing BYU quarterback Tanner Mangum to get outside to load up for a throw."

 

[kerpal_68]

I brought up keeping contain in another thread and was told a couple times I was full of it and it wasn't important.

 

[schuele]

Wow, and all this time I thought BYU ran the same Hail Mary play I see 100 times every season. I figured they probably practiced it, until I saw this exclusive video that gave me the real inside story.

Have you considered turning this into an ESPN 30 for 30?

 

[jflores]

What does Banker have to do with anything. This isn't a criticism of him or anyone else. It just shows that if we had kept some contain that throw is a lot more difficult.

BTW...Banker said after the game he wanted Gangwish to keep contain.

According to the video you posted, for the first 12 secs Riley consults with Banker and Bray heads out to meet the players. Then Riley departs for the sideline and Banker goes out to the huddle presumably with Riley's wishes. Riley chats up a dude on the sideline a few seconds, heads out to the huddle. Banker is tapping dudes on helmets and looks like he's trying to get dudes to focus on him for last words.

Play starts. Mangum takes something like a 7 step drop and never really stops before rolling out. Because by the time he takes his drop and starts to roll, Gangwish had taken ~6 steps and injured himself on an inside spin move. That whole half of the field was open because somewhere between the DC talking to players in the huddle and the field, Gangwish decides to spin inside, injuring himself in the process and putting another three bodies in front of his fellow DT.

The other end, I didn't see who it was, actually gets by the two dudes blocking him, had Mangum rolled left against all common sense of the present situation and natural set up for a right handed thrower, he might have been sacked or in some way interfered with.

The only indicting thing to me about that whole series of TO's and coaches chatting players up, is that our guy took about 1 sec to take himself and the DT out of the game, and the one man who really did anything to beat his dude, had no chance to run Mangum down from the backside. That's on Gangwish, not Riley or Banker. Unless the fan base is to believe that Riley was getting an update on his fantasy league or the weather, and Banker was just tapping guys to speak at the victory press conference.

 

[jflores]

I brought up keeping contain in another thread and was told a couple times I was full of it and it wasn't important.

Well, it depends. Had we bracketed the receiver correctly and knocked the pass down or ripped it out or something, the rush situation isn't particularly important.

Very few Hail Mary's end in sacks, the QB usually gets the ball away, its just not usually caught.

 

[jflores]

I brought up keeping contain in another thread and was told a couple times I was full of it and it wasn't important.

To be honest, when I rewatched the play, QB held the ball alot less than I thought. He almost literally doesn't stop from his drop to roll, and he rolls quickly sets and throws.

I've seen a fair bit of football in my day, and there are hail mary plays where dudes sit back there all day, then roll and sit some more, and finally launch the ball. This one was fairly quick.

 

[jflores]

What does Banker have to do with anything. This isn't a criticism of him or anyone else. It just shows that if we had kept some contain that throw is a lot more difficult.

BTW...Banker said after the game he wanted Gangwish to keep contain.

"Everyone recognizes that NU botched some things on the back end, with nobody in front of the receiver to bat the ball harmlessly to the turf. But just as big, in Banker's view, was allowing BYU quarterback Tanner Mangum to get outside to load up for a throw."

Yah its all percentages. Its a low percentage throw, so 9/10 times, if you had to pick one, you want your secondary to be on point to maximize that ball hitting the ground. Obviously the perfect situation is that the QB makes a poor hurried throw as well.

I don't really see a point in the fan base getting all in a wad about it. Somewhere between the huddle and the field, Gangwish decided to go inside which didn't help one half the equation, and someone in the secondary didn't bracket properly, which didn't help the other half.

 

[Tulsa Tom]

To be honest, when I rewatched the play, QB held the ball alot less than I thought. He almost literally doesn't stop from his drop to roll, and he rolls quickly sets and throws.

I've seen a fair bit of football in my day, and there are hail mary plays where dudes sit back there all day, then roll and sit some more, and finally launch the ball. This one was fairly quick.

You are completely missing my point, Banker's point, the BYU offensive coordinator's point...the kid is a 2nd string freshman qb who probably has never run that play in practice. The coach wants him to not sit in the pocket and try to throw that pass. He wants him to roll outside to the right. As a defense we make it way harder on a qb if you have a guy in his face and you don't let him get around the contain. This is exactly why Banker says this MISTAKE was just as important as what happened on the back side of the play.

Too many guys think a qb just runs around a little bit and then throws a ball really far and really high. It's obvious that is not the case. I give Kerpel credit for first pointing that out...and penalty points to those who think it is of no consequence.

 

[schuele]

Of course allowing him to roll to the right so easily was a mistake - I don't think anyone would contend otherwise. I just don't see what on Earth the timeout had to do with it.

I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that the QB probably already had a general idea what to do, even before this pivotal moment was captured on video.

 

[jflores]

Of course allowing him to roll to the right so easily was a mistake - I don't think anyone would contend otherwise. I just don't see what on Earth the timeout had to do with it.

I'm going to go way out on a limb and say that the QB probably already had a general idea what to do, even before this pivotal moment was captured on video.

Yah. I haven't really payed attention to the post game coverage much, but we don't know what was said in either huddle. We have a better idea on our side, because both Riley and Banker have addressed that yes bracketing of the receivers is intended and contain was intended, but not carried out.

To my knowledge, BYU coaches have not really commented on what they were telling players on that last play. Dude makes a fist, and to fit our view of the situation, he's making our team look like a fool and out strategizing them. He coulda been telling that freshman QB that Gangwish prefers to roll inside and has been all day, so be aware of rolling to your right to break contain. He could've been saying something as stupid as, hey dude that wasn't going to play this year except in mop up duty, remember all your receivers are on the right side of the field, so you want to roll right to not make the throw any worse than it already is. Which doesn't make NU look particularly stupid because it has everything to do with play design/fundamentals and not anything our defense is doing.

Riley is right about a couple of things. Every offense has a two minute drill. And probably a one minute drill. And a Hail Mary. The offense knew what it was going to do so the TO probably doesn't afford much advantage. His own guys didn't help him out any, by not choosing to heed any advice they were given with the extra time.

NU's defense has played outside of the system before, even with "run through a wall for him" Pelini. It wouldn't at all surprise me to find out that Gangwish believed he could make a play on a true frosh in a high pressure situation and so he went for it.

 

[schuele]

If I had to offer my own wild-ass guess about what the OC said at that moment, it would be that he might have reminded the QB to be patient and make sure the receivers have time to get to the end zone. Because if a freshman QB is going to botch a Hail Mary, that's probably the most common mistake. But if I really truly thought something sophisticated was being drawn up at that very moment, I would probably say I've seen Remember the Titans a few too many times.

 

[jflores]

If I had to offer my own wild-ass guess about what the OC said at that moment, it would be that he might have reminded the QB to be patient and make sure the receivers have time to get to the end zone. Because if a freshman QB is going to botch a Hail Mary, that's probably the most common mistake. But if I really truly thought something sophisticated was being drawn up at that very moment, I would probably say I've seen Remember the Titans a few too many times.

Yah, and they panic under pressure more often than not, and its not uncommon to see a young QB roll to the blindside and into more pressure. It coulda been as simple as that. But as I noted in the other thread, basically by the time the kid rolled, Gangwish was already laid out prone about waist level against his blocker in the process of clutching his knee, kid wouldn't need to see anymore than that to know that rolling right was a real good option at that moment in time.

 

[jflores]

You are completely missing my point,

This is exactly why Banker says this MISTAKE was just as important as what happened on the back side of the play.

Too many guys think a qb just runs around a little bit and then throws a ball really far and really high. It's obvious that is not the case. I give Kerpel credit for first pointing that out...and penalty points to those who think it is of no consequence.

I guess I don't see how I'm missing your point. I already said above that it was a mistake by Gangwish as well as the secondary. So I would be in agreeance with you, Banker and the BYU coordinator.

As a separate but related piece of conversation, IMO, if I had to pick a part to screw up, I'd rather screw up the rush and have each receiver properly bracketed, I believe it to be a higher percentage play for the defense than attempting to get the sack or make a really atrocious throw (even bad throws end up usually in the vicinity of the receivers downfield, and already noted that very few Hail Mary's end in sacks). Hail Mary plays, seem to be like FG tries, not a lot of defenses seem to put a ton of effort into the rush part of the equation, guys kinda standing up, hands in the air, half spin moving to look like a good effort, even at the NFL level, and so you can get tons of running around in the backfield.

Banker as the DC, should aim for perfection and have both executed perfectly. In this case he got neither, and will be a goat with Riley until its rectified.

People are generally implying that, oh hey look, the BYU coaches are talking to their QB and the play worked out, they are such strategery geniuses. But we don't know what was said by BYU (as pointed out may have nothing to do with us since the kid may have never even run this play before), and we do know that our coaches took time out of their day to talk to their players too. But no one is really implying anything good about that because Gangwish screwed up anyway, along with I think frosh Williams in the secondary.

 

[Redwalla]

According to the video you posted, for the first 12 secs Riley consults with Banker and Bray heads out to meet the players. Then Riley departs for the sideline and Banker goes out to the huddle presumably with Riley's wishes. Riley chats up a dude on the sideline a few seconds, heads out to the huddle. Banker is tapping dudes on helmets and looks like he's trying to get dudes to focus on him for last words.

Play starts. Mangum takes something like a 7 step drop and never really stops before rolling out. Because by the time he takes his drop and starts to roll, Gangwish had taken ~6 steps and injured himself on an inside spin move. That whole half of the field was open because somewhere between the DC talking to players in the huddle and the field, Gangwish decides to spin inside, injuring himself in the process and putting another three bodies in front of his fellow DT.

The other end, I didn't see who it was, actually gets by the two dudes blocking him, had Mangum rolled left against all common sense of the present situation and natural set up for a right handed thrower, he might have been sacked or in some way interfered with.

The only indicting thing to me about that whole series of TO's and coaches chatting players up, is that our guy took about 1 sec to take himself and the DT out of the game, and the one man who really did anything to beat his dude, had no chance to run Mangum down from the backside. That's on Gangwish, not Riley or Banker. Unless the fan base is to believe that Riley was getting an update on his fantasy league or the weather, and Banker was just tapping guys to speak at the victory press conference.

Don't forget where Gifford actually pulls the BYU player into the end zone!!! It would have been better to knock him down while pushing forward!!!

 

[huskerhomie]

I guess I don't see how I'm missing your point. I already said above that it was a mistake by Gangwish as well as the secondary. So I would be in agreeance with you, Banker and the BYU coordinator.

As a separate but related piece of conversation, IMO, if I had to pick a part to screw up, I'd rather screw up the rush and have each receiver properly bracketed, I believe it to be a higher percentage play for the defense than attempting to get the sack or make a really atrocious throw (even bad throws end up usually in the vicinity of the receivers downfield, and already noted that very few Hail Mary's end in sacks). Hail Mary plays, seem to be like FG tries, not a lot of defenses seem to put a ton of effort into the rush part of the equation, guys kinda standing up, hands in the air, half spin moving to look like a good effort, even at the NFL level, and so you can get tons of running around in the backfield.

Banker as the DC, should aim for perfection and have both executed perfectly. In this case he got neither, and will be a goat with Riley until its rectified.

People are generally implying that, oh hey look, the BYU coaches are talking to their QB and the play worked out, they are such strategery geniuses. But we don't know what was said by BYU (as pointed out may have nothing to do with us since the kid may have never even run this play before), and we do know that our coaches took time out of their day to talk to their players too. But no one is really implying anything good about that because Gangwish screwed up anyway, along with I think frosh Williams in the secondary.

Understood, but if Gangs actually does what he is supposed to and keep contain to the QB's side, he may get enough of a push so that the QB cant wind up and fully unload that ball, which means that throw is short of the EZ (throwing in the face of a 20mph wind) and we tackle the WR short of the EZ as well.

So in this case and in this situation it may have been equally important on both ends to have done the right thing or even more important on the front end because if it is short, then game over likely.

 

[nebcountry]

I don't know what they were talking about, and the hand motion doesn't indicate much to me. But I would guess coaches were giving instruction.

A few things stand out having watched the hail mary a couple times on TT's link. It was a 45 yard pass. Two BYU receivers were already deep in the endzone. One trailing receiver came to the party late and was in the right spot to catch a pass that looks to have fallen short. Call it luck, call it skill, that short pass was in the right spot to defeat the coverage. Williams was covering the inside, does NOT look like he was out of position for his responsible coverage. I have to believe BYU coaches wanted the ball high for the tall wide receivers. Short pass, shithouse luck.

 

[jflores]

Understood, but if Gangs actually does what he is supposed to and keep contain to the QB's side, he may get enough of a push so that the QB cant wind up and fully unload that ball, which means that throw is short of the EZ (throwing in the face of a 20mph wind) and we tackle the WR short of the EZ as well.

So in this case and in this situation it may have been equally important on both ends to have done the right thing or even more important on the front end because if it is short, then game over likely.

Yah Benning and company were talking about this this morning. Why does Cav have to keep pounding on the OL to be violent with their hands, when they've had the spring and fall camp to get it into somewhat muscle memory. And more generally, why are players reverting to Pelini era technique and so forth in crunch time when they are constantly drilled on new stuff. Certainly the team looks really good at times, and then they make bonehead plays, so its not like they aren't learning, but they certainly aren't 95 consistent yet.

Some things just take time, and so unless someone can prove that the coaching staff told the players to be dumbasses on that last play (which as noted Gangwish probably screwed up the most, and Williams may or may not have been despite the Coaching intent), it can't really an indictment of the staff in game one.

 

[jay-cheese]

Never call a timeout in this scenario to give the offense a chance to discuss. Bad coaching on that one.

Two, this kid threw the ball with 0 pressure and got lucky. End of story.

Hopefully we learned:
-Never give the offense a free time to meet and review their only play left in the game
-Get pressure on the outside, as that's where he the QB is trying to buy time, as nobody cares if the QB scrambles up the middle for 30 yards...

GBR

 

[hddude55]

BYU burned through their timeouts and would have been a fire drill at the end with a rookie qb -- but Riley gave them two allowing the rookie to get clear instructions. He really is a nice guy.