Covid 8.0 no name calling

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jmliehr

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The majority of clinics aren’t a part of larger systems.

And, mitigation practices or not, they’re in the unemployment line now. Sadly, no directives from government to stem that flow.
You’re off base here...

https://revcycleintelligence.com/news/less-than-a-third-of-docs-owned-independent-practices-in-2018

Only about 31.4 percent of physicians identified as independent practice owners or partners in the 2018 Survey of America’s Physicians.

In contrast, almost one-half (49.1 percent) of the over 8,700 physicians surveyed by the Physicians Foundation and Merritt Hawkins identified as hospital or medical group employees.

“These data suggest that the independent practice model is under pressure in a healthcare system increasingly dominated by large, integrated organizations, whether hospital systems, large medical groups, corporations or insurance companies,”

https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...ians-33-of-us-physicians-are-independent.html
 

yort2000

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Because dentist were considered non-essential and tons have closed offices, you aren’t going to send people trained to clean teeth to manage patients in an ER, likewise clinics and elective surgeries have had drastic drops. A surgeon and nurses doing tummy tucks and boob jobs, or podiatrists or sports medicine practices don’t have much to do, so a lot were laid off to focus funds for health systems to expand bed capacity and keep losses lower.
And where exactly are there a shortage of beds, let alone ventilators, that actually probably killed more people than they saved.
 

jmliehr

First Team All-Big Ten
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And where exactly are there a shortage of beds, let alone ventilators, that actually probably killed more people than they saved.
What does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

NYC and a few other hotspots, thankfully, not widespread.
 

jmliehr

First Team All-Big Ten
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It has everything to do with what we are talking about. Why did we shut down the country?
“We” didn’t. The Government offered guidance on social distancing and state and local Governments have made choices as a result.

Some were absolutely necessary, many probably weren’t. I would be fascinated to see a state by state breakdown of unemployment claims, my guess is it’s heavily focused on the coasts and large cities. Rural companies are pretty insignificant to the larger numbers.
 
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John_J_Rambo

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You’re off base here...

https://revcycleintelligence.com/news/less-than-a-third-of-docs-owned-independent-practices-in-2018
https://revcycleintelligence.com/news/less-than-a-third-of-docs-owned-independent-practices-in-2018
Only about 31.4 percent of physicians identified as independent practice owners or partners in the 2018 Survey of America’s Physicians.

In contrast, almost one-half (49.1 percent) of the over 8,700 physicians surveyed by the Physicians Foundation and Merritt Hawkins identified as hospital or medical group employees.

“These data suggest that the independent practice model is under pressure in a healthcare system increasingly dominated by large, integrated organizations, whether hospital systems, large medical groups, corporations or insurance companies,”

https://www.beckershospitalreview.c...ians-33-of-us-physicians-are-independent.html
50.9% is still a majority. So, yea, I guess I’m way off base.

And those clinics which do affiliate with health systems still are expected to operate in the black.

No patients, no clinic. It’s not some noble quest to reassign resources, it’s business 101.
 
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yort2000

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What happens if we debase the dollar so bad (and 2 trillion at one shot is at that point, let alone the expansion of the Fed's balance sheet, because no one other than the Fed is "buying" US debt at the current point and time) that the US dollar is no longer the world's reserve currency? Here's a hint, no one will be buying US debt and in fact cashing it in. There is a reason that China owns so much of our debt and that is for currency reasons and if the US dollar is no longer the reserve currency they no longer have to own US Treasury Bonds. At that point in time, the US dollar is worth almost absolutely nothing.

EDIT: And I'll add that China has been trying to get the world off of the US dollar as the reserve currency and on to gold for quite a long time.
 
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yort2000

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“We” didn’t. The Government offered guidance on social distancing and state and local Governments have made choices as a result.

Some were absolutely necessary, many probably weren’t. I would be fascinated to see a state by state breakdown of unemployment claims, my guess is it’s heavily focused on the coasts and large cities. Rural companies are pretty insignificant to the larger numbers.
Semantics
 

SnohomishRed

Offensive Coordinator
Jan 31, 2005
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I watching the news tonight - I notice none of the Liberal media talking about Trump endangering people because of his comments on Hydroxychloroquine - why because its becoming clear its working. I also noticed no critic of how the crisis has been handled - why because what they did is working and we are flattening the curve. In fact even New York is giving back some ventilators.

The new plan of attack which will dominate the lying media is Trump did not react fast enough and he caused the pandemic in the US due to this. The media is incapable of reporting actual news anymore in fact I think I prefer the Chinese or North Korean version of the propaganda at least they make no claims about being impartial
 

yort2000

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I watching the news tonight - I notice none of the Liberal media talking about Trump endangering people because of his comments on Hydroxychloroquine - why because its becoming clear its working. I also noticed no critic of how the crisis has been handled - why because what they did is working and we are flattening the curve. In fact even New York is giving back some ventilators.

The new plan of attack which will dominate the lying media is Trump did not react fast enough and he caused the pandemic in the US due to this. The media is incapable of reporting actual news anymore in fact I think I prefer the Chinese or North Korean version of the propaganda at least they make no claims about being impartial
What I love is my history lessons in school about political graft and how it seemed it no longer exists and was a thing of the past. LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Nebraska_Reality

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Oct 23, 2019
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Nope. My problem is that I do understand the basic rules of viral biology. Yes, they are exponential at the beginning of an outbreak, but that is not sustainable, and it is really a small world after all. Any model based off of exponential growth to infinity is flawed and that has just been proven from these models being wrong from the get go. 2 million. 200k, 100k, significantly less than 100k. Go back in to your hole and hide in fear.

https://www.zdnet.com/article/graph-theory-suggests-covid-19-might-be-a-small-world-after-all/
In your opinion, was it wrong for 59,000 Americans to die over the course of an 18 year period in Vietnam?
 

yort2000

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In your opinion, was it wrong for 59,000 Americans to die over the course of an 18 year period in Vietnam?
How the f' do I know? I wasn't even alive at the time. Well maybe I was born towards the end, but I was only sucking on the teet and pooping my diapers at that time.

But, what in the f*ck does an upper respiratory infection have to do with a war/conflict?
 

yort2000

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How the f' do I know? I wasn't even alive at the time. Well maybe I was born towards the end, but I was only sucking on the teet and pooping my diapers at that time.

But, what in the f*ck does an upper respiratory infection have to do with a war/conflict?
But, here is what I do know. All this talk about ventilators was hyperbolic BS and in actuality the patients have better chances for oxegenation from the prone position than from a ventilator.

"Prone Position: A study of 12 patients in Wuhan, China, with COVID-19-related acute respiratory distress syndrome suggests that alternating patients' body position — in particular, having them spend periods in the prone position — may improve lung recruitability. The findings appear in the AmericanJournal of Respiratory and Critical Care Medicine."

Source: https://www.jwatch.org/fw116486/2020/03/25/covid-19-update-prone-positioning-comorbid-cancer-when


"Oxygenation and Prone Position

Mechanical ventilation can go on a long time and intubated patients have not been doing well. Whether that’s a cause (mechanical ventilation has harmful effects), an association (if you’re sick enough to get intubated, mortality is already high), or both remains to be seen.

  • These people are needing 15+ days of intubation, saving a vent for several days is meaningful. Unfortunately, every patient on the floor is developing severe hypoxia. Currently they are recommending a NRB at 15L with a NC at 10L underneath with persistent sats <90% before even considering intubating for hypoxia.

  • If the patient is able to, have them prone themselves while on supplemental O2. They are having a lot of patients on the floor prone as much as they are able and it is helping.
Prone positioning in the awake patient was described by Sun et al two weeks ago as part of their critical care package (prone positioning, fluid restriction, and high flow nasal cannula/NIV).

  • “We attempted awake prone position in coronavirus pneumonia patients which showed significant effects in improving oxygenation and pulmonary heterogeneity”

  • Sun, Qin, et al. "Lower mortality of COVID-19 by early recognition and intervention: experience from Jiangsu Province." Annals of Intensive Care 10.1 (2020): 1-4.
https://www.hippoed.com/em/ercast/episode/covid19fluids/covid19fluids
 
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Nebraska_Reality

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How the f' do I know? I wasn't even alive at the time. Well maybe I was born towards the end, but I was only sucking on the teet and pooping my diapers at that time.

But, what in the f*ck does an upper respiratory infection have to do with a war/conflict?
I wasn't alive at the time, either...at least for most of it. I was not quite 2 years old when Saigon fell in 1975.

I wasn't alive when World War II was fought, either....but I know what happened.

The fact that you use not being alive yet as an excuse for not knowing anything about a major event in our country's history speaks volumes about your lack of desire to actually understand anything beyond your own opinion.
 
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tpmcg

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in other news, 11-pgs of death notices in boston.
normal?
seems a bit high for even a city of its size.
 

yort2000

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I wasn't alive at the time, either...at least for most of it. I was not quite 2 years old when Saigon fell in 1975.

I wasn't alive when World War II was fought, either....but I know what happened.

The fact that you use not being alive yet as an excuse for not knowing anything about a major event in our country's history speaks volumes about your lack of desire to actually understand anything beyond your own opinion.
Really. Get a grip.
 

Nebraska_Reality

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Really. Get a grip.
Really. Get a clue.

Most Americans, with any sort of minimal knowledge about the Vietnam War period, think that it is a tragedy that 59,000 Americans died in that conflict between 1957-1975.....and you seem to think that 62,000 dead Americans (with measures in place) in a 4-7 month period is no big deal. You seem to even think that even more American lives are worth it for the sake of the economy.

I bet that attatide of expendability ends at you or someone you care about, though.
 

inWV

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I bet that attatide of expendability ends at you or someone you care about, though.
Maybe not. If he really believes it’s the right course, then he would sadly accept it. Or maybe reflect on his stupidity. Perhaps he could even be the asymptomatic carrier that infected and led to the death of a friend or loved one. How would he feel then? Every war requires cannon fodder? Or, I’ve tragically had the wrong take on this?
 
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Charlie Marlow

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In Your Head
droplet transmission is thought to be the top source of transmission.
now they think aerosol transmission may be second
followed by droplet to surface to hand to mouth

CDC and WHO needs to accept consequences for their initial recommendation for the public not to wear masks. Criminal investigations possibly for being so negligent. So much of this could have been minimized from the start.

We can slowly ease back into 'business-as-usual' once this is well under control and a proper test, track, trace and mask program is in place. States and locals that accomplish that first will get first crack.

Accurate models of a virus that we still know little about? hahahhahaha good one. But it's clear that the theories of social distancing, etc can significantly flatten the curve to manageable levels.

And as always, mask up!!
 
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big red22

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I watching the news tonight - I notice none of the Liberal media talking about Trump endangering people because of his comments on Hydroxychloroquine - why because its becoming clear its working. I also noticed no critic of how the crisis has been handled - why because what they did is working and we are flattening the curve. In fact even New York is giving back some ventilators.

The new plan of attack which will dominate the lying media is Trump did not react fast enough and he caused the pandemic in the US due to this. The media is incapable of reporting actual news anymore in fact I think I prefer the Chinese or North Korean version of the propaganda at least they make no claims about being impartial
... And Fox News never once gave out false information to push their agenda? It goes both ways, so how about we lay off the single news networks. It is extremely sad and shows that you don't agree with CNN. Did you ever think that your view points are also propaganda pushing, but since it is your opinion it's not fake news?

COVID-19 is a G-L-O-B-A-L pandemic... What does CNN need to talk about to satisfy your news needs? Is CNN and other news networks that swing left the ONLY media that is incapable of providing "actual news"?

Is the Coronavirus is not news worthy? Is Trumps response and actions of the Coronavirus not "actual news"? In case you didn't know the whole country has been affected by both of those stories... so?

I remember Fox News not to long ago saying Covid-19 is fake news and it's just CNN hating on Trump. Well here we are working from home, and people are dying?
 
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yort2000

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Really. Get a clue.

Most Americans, with any sort of minimal knowledge about the Vietnam War period, think that it is a tragedy that 59,000 Americans died in that conflict between 1957-1975.....and you seem to think that 62,000 dead Americans (with measures in place) in a 4-7 month period is no big deal. You seem to even think that even more American lives are worth it for the sake of the economy.

I bet that attatide of expendability ends at you or someone you care about, though.

Global deaths from communicable disease so far this year - 3,672,023

Soure: https://www.worldometers.info/
 

yort2000

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Maybe not. If he really believes it’s the right course, then he would sadly accept it. Or maybe reflect on his stupidity. Perhaps he could even be the asymptomatic carrier that infected and led to the death of a friend or loved one. How would he feel then? Every war requires cannon fodder? Or, I’ve tragically had the wrong take on this?
[https://medium dot com/@yinonweiss/lets-visualize-state-by-state-shutdown-effectiveness-on-covid-19-e13a5cdb50ad]

Let’s Visualize State-by-State Shutdown Effectiveness on COVID-19
Many are wondering when we should begin to loosen social distancing measures and which ones should we loosen first?

Yinon Weiss

Apr 12 · 9 min read


Parents want to let their kids play on park swings and others are looking for a break from sheltering at home. However, none of us want to be responsible for unnecessary deaths and we all want to do our part, so these can be difficult questions to think through and perhaps even uncomfortable to ask.

How effective are State wide shutdowns versus more measured approaches? That is what I will analyze in this post by looking at the data. As a spoiler, there is not much evidence that State wide shutdowns have a significant impact on total deaths. How can this be? Let’s walk through the numbers. You can also download my "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">data and analysis spreadsheet here.

First we need a framework to help us think through these choices.
"); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">Tomas Pueyo gave a nice framework for how to think about this by laying out the potential effects that different social distancing measures can have on the spread of the virus. The rate of viral spread can be defined by R. If R =2 then for every person who gets the virus, that person will infect 2 more. If we can get R to below 1 that means for each person who gets the virus, they will transmit it to less than one other person. That would be a great position to be in to control the spread.

Below is a summary of possible measures that can reduce R as proposed by Tomas Pueyo in "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">The Hammer and the Dance.



Least to most disruptive/damaging social distancing measures
At the top are the least damaging measures such as testing, hand washing, and checking our body temperature. After that we start to get more draconian such as travel restrictions, closing of sporting events, schools, and most businesses.

To make wise decisions, we need to better understand how effective each measure is in terms of both the damage it causes and benefit it provides.

Statewide Stay-at-Home measures were put in place as an emergency measure
When most statewide stay-at-home measure were put in place during mid to late March, there was a growing fear that we would “end up like Italy” and that we were on the precipice of bodies lining streets across the United States if we didn’t take action. People felt a real sense of panic about an impeding disaster and pulled the emergency brake lever to just stop nearly everything in its tracks.

We had a lot less data back then, so a study of those March decisions can be evaluated at some point in the future. What’s more important is that now that we have some data, and actually a lot more data, what have we learned from taking these measures?

Statewide closures obviously worked, right? It’s not so simple.
Many people point to NY as evidence that statewide closures work. While NY has certainly mitigated unchecked growth of the virus, we can’t yet say for sure how much of that was from cancelling events, or washing more hands, or wearing masks, or staying at home, etc. We may have “common sense” intuition, but analyzing data is usually a superior approach.

The only real way to know how effective shutting down has been is by comparing two similar situations in which one shut down and one did not. Since we don’t have a bizarro parallel universe of New York that didn’t shut down, we can at least compare the actions of all the different States and see what outcomes the different decisions had.

Let’s compare speed to shut down to expected death rates
So one way to visualize effectiveness of shut downs is to compare how quickly States shut down to the total number of currently expected deaths, normalized to population size of course.

According to Tomas Pueyo:

In this theoretical model that resembles loosely Hubei, waiting one more day creates 40% more cases! — "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">Flattening the Curve

That certainly sounds scary! One day adds 40% more cases? With a situation like that, we should all shut down as quickly as possible.

Let’s see what actually happened…

I graphed the projected total deaths (past and future) using the IHME model versus how long it took a State to shut down from the time it started seeing people dying (when it reached 0.5 deaths per million).



Y-Axis: Projected deaths based on IHME data pulled on 4/12/20 at 9am PT, graphed on logarithmic scale. X-Axis: Days it took a State to go from surpassing 0.5 deaths per million (data from covidtracking.com) to shutdown. 0.5 deaths per million was chosen as a minimum threshold to use as a proxy for when a virus was definitively present within a State. All data subsequently normalized to population size based on data (July 1, 2019) from United States Census Bureau. States which have not shut down at all were given today (April 12th) as the shutdown date, though it would be better to graph them at infinite.
One would expect that the faster a State shut down, the less deaths it would incur, but that’s surprisingly not what we find. There is virtually zero correlation between speed of shut down and expected death totals.

Now there are a lot of States out there with small populations, so one may argue that they may not paint a complete picture. So I went ahead and re-ran the numbers but this time limiting the graph to only the 15 most populous US States:



Y-Axis: Projected deaths based on IHME data pulled on 4/12/20 at 9am PT, graphed on logarithmic scale. X-Axis: Days it took a State to go from surpassing 0.5 deaths per million (data from covidtracking.com) to shutdown. 0.5 deaths per million was chosen as a minimum threshold to use as a proxy for when a virus was definitively present within a State. All data subsequently normalized to population size based on data (July 1, 2019) from United States Census Bureau.
We again find no meaningful correlation between speed of State wide shutdown versus projected total deaths. How can this be? Well, there may be much more important factors influencing the spread of the virus, including:

  • Voluntary behavioral change of residents such as washing hands, staying away from large groups, not touching one’s face, etc.
  • Municipal level shut downs such as what happened in Texas. It may not make sense to treat a Dallas the same as a 200 person town.
  • More measured closures such as restaurants but not all businesses
  • Natural slow of viral spread, perhaps related to weather
  • Different health profiles of State residents
Ok, but 0.5 deaths per million to start the clock may be causing noise. What if we use a higher threshold?
Using a lower death number as the relative marker to start the clock allows a bigger window of time and therefore a better range of data to find patterns. However, 0.5 deaths per million is also noisier since the numbers are so low. If we 10x that and graph the same speed-to-closing based on when the State reached 5 deaths per million and compare that to expected deaths, we get a correlation with an R Squared of 0.156.

This is a bit of a stronger correlation than the prior analysis, but is still extremely weak to explain the differences we are seeing in death totals among the States. If one was to take this data at face value, we would have to consider that there may be much important forces at play than a State shutting down even once an infection reaches a meaningful level of penetration.



Y-Axis: Projected deaths based on IHME data pulled on 4/12/20 at 9am PT, graphed on logarithmic scale. X-Axis: Days it took a State to go from surpassing 5 deaths per million (data from covidtracking.com) to shutdown. 0.5 deaths per million was chosen as a minimum threshold to use as a proxy for when a virus was definitively present within a State. All data subsequently normalized to population size based on data (July 1, 2019) from United States Census Bureau.
It’s important to remember that this doesn’t graph the relative date of Stay-At-Home orders. It graphs the relative date of Stay-At-Home orders compared to when the state reached meaningful deaths, defined as 5 deaths per million. This latter comparison is more insightful as to the effects of closing early vs later, or not closing at all as we’ll discuss later in international examples.

This is not to say that shutting down does not reduce the spread of the virus, nor does it say that perhaps the psychological effect of how serious a State projects the problem may also change people’s behavior.

What we can say for now is that how quickly a State shuts down has not meaningfully correlated with the total expected deaths.

State shutdowns do slow down the spread but speed to shut down appears weakly correlated with outcomes
It would be reasonable to assume that State wide shut downs almost certainly does slow down the spread of the virus to some unknown extent. What we don’t know is how effective a State wide shut down is compared to other measures taken such as washing hands, wearing masks, avoiding large events, or letting multiplicities make their own decisions with local restrictions. The above charts are one data point that would at least indicate a very weak correlation between speed of shutting down and saving lives.

Statewide shutdowns costs us trillions of dollars, deprives children of full education, and ruins many lives; could washing hands, wearing masks, and avoiding large events be potentially more effective while a lot less damaging?

A lot is still unknown, but these are exactly the kinds of questions we need to begin to answer so we know when and what social distancing measures we should loosen first, and it should not be taboo to challenge the wisdom of the road we are on.

Speed to closing schools also doesn’t meaningfully correlate with reduction in deaths
Below is a similar analysis but instead of looking at a shutdown date I compared the time lag (or time advance) between shutting down all schools and when a State started recording deaths, defined as reaching 0.5 deaths per million.



Based on the R squared correlation, we would conclude that there is extremely weak (5%) correlation between speed of school shut down to the projected death totals that a State will experience.

This is not to say that shutting down schools or States is the wrong answer, but it is intended to begin a data driven conversation on what measures are worth taking and when.

What about other countries?
Nearly all countries have followed the shut down approach. Some such as South Korea and Singapore were able to implement extremely strong early testing and contact tracing, and for at least a while avoided shutdowns.

Challenging the shutdown dogma has become taboo. “What, do you want millions to die?” might be a response that one gets, but we again need to look at data, which so far experts have continued to be "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">wrong about over and over again.

Let’s take a look for example at Sweden.

If Sweden were a US State it would be one of our 10 most populous, so it’s not exactly a small sample size. Sweden has enacted some of the measures in the hierarchy of social distancing, but it has not gone as far as a complete shut down.

Let me bring back the framework from Tomas Pueyo, because it is such a valuable conceptual reference:



Sweden has taken the less punitive steps at the top of the chart, but has "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">refused to lock down their country. Their playgrounds and schools are still open, as are restaurants and bars.

Sweden’s actions are about encouraging and recommending, not compulsion. Two days after Spain imposed a nationwide lockdown on March 14, Swedish authorities were encouraging people to wash hands and stay at home if sick."); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);"> On March 24, new rules were introduced to avoid crowding at restaurants. But they very much stayed open.

So did many primary and secondary schools. Gatherings of up to 50 people are still permitted. —"); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">CNN, April 10, 2020



Stockholm, Sweden, April 1, 2020. (TT News Agency/Fredrik Sandberg via Reuters)
So how is Sweden actually doing?
Sweden is a great comparison because their deaths started happening at nearly the exact same time as the United States, so it’s more straightforward to compare.



What we find is that both countries saw a quick rise of daily deaths starting around March 20th, peaking around April 10th and then plateauing, and in Sweden’s case then dropping very quickly — at least so far.

Sweden and the United States are clearly very different countries, with different cultures and different geographies. The United States itself is quite diverse in its internal response to COVID, as we saw earlier in this article.

A key takeaway may be that it is reasonable to challenge the conventional wisdom that shut downs are the leading (or even meaningful) contributor to saving lives when compared to other measures such as washing hands, cancelling large events, measuring one’s temperature, and staying home when exposed to somebody who was sick.

Where to from here?
I started this article by saying that we must ask which social distancing measures we should lift first and when. Our shutdowns do not come for free, "); background-size: 1px 1px; background-position: 0px calc(1em + 1px);">with nearly a million people losing their jobs daily, tens of millions of children receiving little to no education, not to mention the unknown mental health damage that we may be unwinding for years.

Given the data we see across the States and with countries like Sweden, it should not be taboo to question the narrative that wholesale shutdowns were, or at the very least still are, the right approach.

We should all rely a little more on data, and less on fear, when considering the next steps for our country.






WRITTEN BY

Yinon Weiss
I write about leadership, business, and human performance.
 

dinglefritz

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Yes.....and you seem to think that we need to CHOOSE to add more on top of it.....

Why don't you just cut the crap, and tell us how many C19 deaths in the US you are willing to tolerate.
We're going to have deaths no matter what. Flattening the curve likely doesn't significantly lower the number of total deaths it just spreads them out over more time. The question is now, with what population immunity has developed, at what point can we resume more normal life? Obviously IMO we need to continue diligent hygiene practices and some form of social distancing but we have to get people back to work or it won't matter how many lives we save from here on out. IF you want dramatic social change and dramatic governmental upheaval, by all means we should just go to lockdown.

I was the FIRST one on this board to sound an alarm after Marlowe's question about Corona virus in the very first thread. NOW it's time to take a step back from the ledge. We've got this. Keep up social distancing. Keep up what should be standard hygiene practices. Be a responsible citizen. Get back to work.
 

Nebraska_Reality

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We're going to have deaths no matter what. Flattening the curve likely doesn't significantly lower the number of total deaths it just spreads them out over more time. The question is now, with what population immunity has developed, at what point can we resume more normal life? Obviously IMO we need to continue diligent hygiene practices and some form of social distancing but we have to get people back to work or it won't matter how many lives we save from here on out. IF you want dramatic social change and dramatic governmental upheaval, by all means we should just go to lockdown.

I was the FIRST one on this board to sound an alarm after Marlowe's question about Corona virus in the very first thread. NOW it's time to take a step back from the ledge. We've got this. Keep up social distancing. Keep up what should be standard hygiene practices. Be a responsible citizen. Get back to work.
"Flattening the curve likely doesn't significantly lower the number of total deaths it just spreads them out over more time."

I would have to disagree with this part of your post. It seems to me that the more people that catch this, the more deaths we get. I just wanted to know how many deaths he was willing to tolerate in a "let this wash over us" method.

The issue I have with people like Yort is that we are apparently expendable.....until it hits him or someone he cares about. To me, people like him need to be willing to forgo medical care if needed if that's the attitude he is going to take.

Until we have a way to test everyone...or even 80% of the population, we can't rely on isolating at risk people.

One of the early cases in Wuhan was a girl in her 20s that infected 5 family members while asymptomatic.

My wife and I are in our 40s. She is diabetic, despite being in pretty good health overall, and not being dramatically overweight. I have high blood pressure (which has been lowered via medication), and am carrying more weight that I should. We have a son in college, who obviously is at home right now. I guess we can re-open college campuses....but do you really think he could ever come home anytime soon when his mother and I are at, the very least, in the moderate-to-high risk category? And....forget him seeing any of his grandparents anytime soon.

We're not living in a hole in fear. She goes to work (a bank, which has closed their lobby). I'm a teacher and AD. I go in about 2 days a week, and work form the house the other 3. Much different ball game to send your son back to a dorm (lots of students using the same restrooms) and have him come home. Kind of hard to mitigate that risk when he comes home.
 
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SnohomishRed

Offensive Coordinator
Jan 31, 2005
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Snohomish
... And Fox News never once gave out false information to push their agenda? It goes both ways, so how about we lay off the single news networks. It is extremely sad and shows that you don't agree with CNN. Did you ever think that your view points are also propaganda pushing, but since it is your opinion it's not fake news?

COVID-19 is a G-L-O-B-A-L pandemic... What does CNN need to talk about to satisfy your news needs? Is CNN and other news networks that swing left the ONLY media that is incapable of providing "actual news"?

Is the Coronavirus is not news worthy? Is Trumps response and actions of the Coronavirus not "actual news"? In case you didn't know the whole country has been affected by both of those stories... so?

I remember Fox News not to long ago saying Covid-19 is fake news and it's just CNN hating on Trump. Well here we are working from home, and people are dying?
You guys are relentless its not about one news service its about all of them including Fox - They do not report news anymore they make it. However obviously the balance of the media tilts left and Anti-Trump to deny this is just plain stupid or a lie, its very obvious. The media is now again making another story not reporting it, the new one is that Trump did not take it seriously and that cost lives. Its B.S and any logical person knows it.

Why cant you guys just give the hate thing a rest. Trump is not the anti-christ and has done pretty well in unprecedented times. Has he done everything right nope sure has not but who would. The real culprit here continues to get a pass from Main stream media - China - they lied through their teeth and in fact are continuing to lie. They have blocked and destroyed documents that would trace the origins of this virus. They created the environment which allowed this virus to come in contact with humans and still to this day are allowing it. They are responsible for the deaths and the devastation to the world economy and need to be held accountable.

None of the above is even really disputed yet Main stream media prefers to blame Trump and give China a pass. In fact I watched a segment on ABC which was complimenting China on how they handled this - Its disgusting an American company would do this
 
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redwine65

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covid - 19 started in a wuhan lab. not naturally from a wet meat market, scientists can tell because of the spikes on it.
but the question is why did china make it? I know a lot of Asians take weird stuff to try and prolong their lifes..
so Im guessing covid -19 was made by china to see how bats could live with it so long and transfer that ability to humans.
china couldn't have made it to terrorize other countries because the US could probably cover every door handle in bejing and the 4 other teir one ccp cities in china with covid-19, by next week...so Im thinking this is just a complete blunder by the ccp and not 100% intentional.
 

big red22

Offensive Coordinator
Dec 15, 2003
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"The real culprit here continues to get a pass from Main stream media - China - they lied through their teeth and in fact are continuing to lie. They have blocked and destroyed documents that would trace the origins of this virus. They created the environment which allowed this virus to come in contact with humans and still to this day are allowing it. They are responsible for the deaths and the devastation to the world economy and need to be held accountable."
You guys? As in who, the people that don't agree with you? I quoted above to prove that you got that information from some other media source? What media source was that exactly? Obviously you believe some media cause you are making a bold statement here if you didn't get it from a "news" source.
 

dinglefritz

College Football Hall of Fame
Jan 14, 2011
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"Flattening the curve likely doesn't significantly lower the number of total deaths it just spreads them out over more time."

I would have to disagree with this part of your post. It seems to me that the more people that catch this, the more deaths we get. I just wanted to know how many deaths he was willing to tolerate in a "let this wash over us" method.

The issue I have with people like Yort is that we are apparently expendable.....until it hits him or someone he cares about. To me, people like him need to be willing to forgo medical care if needed if that's the attitude he is going to take.

I respect your opinion, BUT IF we follow social distancing and good hygiene practices IMO the risk to people with fairly high risk characteristics is pretty low. By all means, a diabetic should avoid crowds and wear a mask in public. I also think a diabetic should consider taking medical leave for as long as possible. The rest of us need to carry on with life as much as possible.



Until we have a way to test everyone...or even 80% of the population, we can't rely on isolating at risk people.

One of the early cases in Wuhan was a girl in her 20s that infected 5 family members while asymptomatic.

My wife and I are in our 40s. She is diabetic, despite being in pretty good health overall, and not being dramatically overweight. I have high blood pressure (which has been lowered via medication), and am carrying more weight that I should. We have a son in college, who obviously is at home right now. I guess we can re-open college campuses....but do you really think he could ever come home anytime soon when his mother and I are at, the very least, in the moderate-to-high risk category? And....forget him seeing any of his grandparents anytime soon.

We're not living in a hole in fear. She goes to work (a bank, which has closed their lobby). I'm a teacher and AD. I go in about 2 days a week, and work form the house the other 3. Much different ball game to send your son back to a dorm (lots of students using the same restrooms) and have him come home. Kind of hard to mitigate that risk when he comes home.
I'm 62 with chronic mild asthma and an autoimmune disease. My wife sees COVID-19 patients. We're both still working and living life pretty normally. We would be eating at restaurants if they were still open.
 
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DudznSudz

Senior
Feb 4, 2016
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covid - 19 started in a wuhan lab. not naturally from a wet meat market, scientists can tell because of the spikes on it.
but the question is why did china make it? I know a lot of Asians take weird stuff to try and prolong their lifes..
so Im guessing covid -19 was made by china to see how bats could live with it so long and transfer that ability to humans.
china couldn't have made it to terrorize other countries because the US could probably cover every door handle in bejing and the 4 other teir one ccp cities in china with covid-19, by next week...so Im thinking this is just a complete blunder by the ccp and not 100% intentional.
That is 100% not true, pal.
 

Nebraska_Reality

Sophomore
Oct 23, 2019
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You guys are relentless its not about one news service its about all of them including Fox - They do not report news anymore they make it. However obviously the balance of the media tilts left and Anti-Trump to deny this is just plain stupid or a lie, its very obvious. The media is now again making another story not reporting it, the new one is that Trump did not take it seriously and that cost lives. Its B.S and any logical person knows it.

Why cant you guys just give the hate thing a rest. Trump is not the anti-christ and has done pretty well in unprecedented times. Has he done everything right nope sure has not but who would. The real culprit here continues to get a pass from Main stream media - China - they lied through their teeth and in fact are continuing to lie. They have blocked and destroyed documents that would trace the origins of this virus. They created the environment which allowed this virus to come in contact with humans and still to this day are allowing it. They are responsible for the deaths and the devastation to the world economy and need to be held accountable.

None of the above is even really disputed yet Main stream media prefers to blame Trump and give China a pass. In fact I watched a segment on ABC which was complimenting China on how they handled this - Its disgusting an American company would do this
You need to check yourself on the claim that Trump took this seriously. I can give you a list of things Trump has said that indicates that he didn't.....or, at the very least, was worried about the wrong things. And spare me the "aspirations" or "being a cheerleader for America" bull crap. That's like saying that the key to the Huskers getting another NC is to get better cheerleaders.

430,000 people came into the US from China between the outbreak and the travel ban (and another 43,000 after it)....and don't use Biden and Pelosi calling it xenophobic as an excuse. Them saying that had nothing to do with the spread of the virus.

You need to read the "Red Dawn" e-mails. I can forgive mistakes made by Fauci and other experts, and even Trump himself, that are due to not dealing with this before. What I can't forgive are unforced errors made by Trump that are solely due to his personality and stubbornness.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/...tion=click&module=RelatedLinks&pgtype=Article

If you don't trust the link, then fine...but they do have 80 pages of e-mails linked for the public to read.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/11/us/politics/coronavirus-red-dawn-emails-trump.html

Here's a very telling exchange about the Europe travel ban right after it was announced...and in case you need some more info, here is a link on Dr. James V. Lawler, who is part of this chain:
https://www.unmc.edu/intmed/divisions/id/faculty/lawler.html

 
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