Comparing Defensive 2-Deep Talent vs Wisconsin and Iowa..
- Thread starter Hoosker Du
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The calling for Chinander's head didn't start Saturday. We gave up 380 rushing to probably the best rushing team in the conference. Their defense is horrible and Bush is not a good passer BUT they CAN run the ball.
BS....he played 3 non-power 5 teams...who cares what our defense does in scrimmages...Bo was a master at dominating weaker foes, but when the games mattered his defense was no better than Chins. That is why I said Bo gave up 34 ppg against power 5 teams...including 60+ against OU. You aren't going to get better than Bo at NU, and Bo wasn't that great. Frosty is smart to try to dominate with what they do best...Frost is probably the best offensive talent in the nation, he isn't getting the best defensive talent to coach at NU.
Yes, we can do better than Bo as a defensive coordinator. He gave up an NCAA rushing record. 408 yards to one guy. That is not even mediocre. That's your fired right after the game defense, for a coordinator.
I'm just comparing apples to apples, and comparing the average of all the games for both parties.
Why can't we get better than Bo at NU? Wisconsin has had 3 DCs in the last 6 years that we better than Bo IMO. Iowa has a DC better than Bo IMO too. Why should we expect less than two teams that we are historically better than?
It doesn't really matter, because we need to give Chin another year anyway. Maybe even more.
They have a very good RB, but as I've mentioned Purdue held Bush to 24 yards on 20 carries. He ran for 60 more yards against us than any other team.
But that's the argument to begin with...that we don't have enough talent. And the best way to objectively asses talent is by using Rivals or 247 or ESPN data. It tells us what the player was ranked when he came into the program.
And he had an injured leg early in the season. Go look it up. He left the Western Illinois game with it and wasn't at 100% for a while after that.
So if we have more talent, why will none of them be playing on Sundays? Because they are not that talented.
Doesn't matter what you or any other fans think. Chin is Frost's guy.
Talent level isn't measured by how they were rated in high school. It's how does the NFL rate them now.
Fair enough. I misunderstood. I think we have enough talent to field a more effective defense than we have.Thats where the continuity etc. that comes into play. If we had all of that we should be able to field a similar defense as Iowa or Wisconsin, but we haven't for a long time.
For B1G titles the defense needs more talent, for the west one dynamic guy could make a huge difference.
I agree with the OP. If the Nebraska fanbase decides a coach isn't good enough within the first 8 games of a season, we should fire them. Chin's terrible system made players take bad angles and caused Young to miss 42 tackles this year.
Honestly is hard for me to argue with you because we are simply seeing different things.
Diaco had the most sit and wait defenses ive ever seen. The FIRST game of the year may have been our MOST aggressive against Colorado so i have no clue what you have seen.
As far as our speed and playmaking again we see it different. Coaches and scheme get you to the place...talent has to make the play.
The play early in the game where Young whiffs on the 1 on 1 with Bush in the hole? Glaring example of talent. Hes there..cant make the play. More talented guy makes that play. Examples all over the field and all year of similar play.
You dont see that. Im sorry i cant even argue with stuff that obvious. We just agree to disagree.
Holla
Also.... a 4-star 4-3 DT might be a 2-star 3-4 DT.
ALL this "oh we have talent" BS is at best selectively ignoring that fact.
You can say "put in your system" and live with it or you can say "run what you have the players for" but you really can't do both in most cases.
And you most definitely can't have it both ways.
This program was a massive clusterf---. Years of fixing. It will get there.
ALL this "oh we have talent" BS is at best selectively ignoring that fact.
You can say "put in your system" and live with it or you can say "run what you have the players for" but you really can't do both in most cases.
And you most definitely can't have it both ways.
This program was a massive clusterf---. Years of fixing. It will get there.
This has been discussed in the past, but let's review. Tell me...what objective rating system do you guys have available to you that will qualify the talent level of players? We don't have access to internal rating systems of each school, and those would be almost solely subjective anyway.
The point is that Rivals, 247, Scout, etc.. are the only real objective rating systems that tell us what talent is arriving at schools each year. We have those lists available to us with one click. While not a perfect science, I'm guessing that almost all of us would agree that Rivals, et al.. does a much better job than any of us could do, because they not only watch a slew of videos, but also attend nearly all of the camps. Is that agreed?
After that, it is up to the coaches to get the most out of that talent. When I say "we have the best talent on campus of any of the West schools," I am basing that on the most objective data we have available to us. In this case, I'm using the Rivals lists. But then you have to look at the 2-Deep lists to eliminate any kids that have left the school.
So...we have talent that is practicing with the team every day that, upon arrival at Nebraska, was collectively ranked at .5 stars higher than what Wisconsin has on their 2-Deep practicing every day, and .4 stars higher than what Iowa has on their 2-Deep practicing every day. Is that understood?
Right now, on campus, our defensive coaches have the highest objectively ranked talent in the West at their disposal. You can argue that Wisconsin and Iowa have more talent, because it has been developed better, and I would be in full agreement. My contention is and has always been, that after having an entire spring, and 10 games in the system, I think we should be trending more positively than we are right now. I have also said that Chinander deserves more time than one year, but his 2nd year at UCF has me concerned.
People have gone off the deep-end because they think I'm saying that Chinander should be canned immediately. Never said that. Ever. I am, however, concerned with seeing players completely out of position in our 10th game of the season. I've noticed from past experience that new systems start to gel in the latter 1/2 to latter 1/3 of the season. At worst, the latter 1/4 of the season. But generally speaking, it takes at least 1/2 a season to start seeing players becoming more comfortable in new systems. Unfortunately we've had the opportunity to see new systems being installed far too often due to coaching changes.
Anyway, wanted to clarify my thoughts on "talent," and how ours stacks up. Maybe I'm expecting too much from Chinander too early, but we do have enough talent, as objectively ranked, to be competitive on both sides of the ball. The offense is kicking ass, and generally new defensive systems are ahead of new offensive systems in terms of players becoming comfortable. For some reason, ours seem contrary to that general rule though. That, and watching UCF's defense in Chinander's 2nd year, is why I have concerns.
How can I argue with a guy that is under the impression that we've played 8 games, when in reality we've played 10. I have no other choice than to yield to your attention to detail.
This is why I brought in the point of our offense being well on its way. As I'm sure you're aware, defenses are generally ahead of offenses when implementing new systems, just because of the vast amount of plays and information to digest on offense vs defense.
This is why I'm wondering why we have players on defense in nowhereland, out of position far too often, vs the offense clicking. Or...is our offense in reality not clicking yet, and Frost is disappointed that we aren't averaging 750 yards and 65 points a game.
J/K.Hopefully I'm making sense here. Our new systems seem contrary to everything we've come to expect about implementing new systems.
How can we argue with a garage band bass player. You're right. We should just clean house. BTW. Defensive players have to read what the offense does from mulitple sets, actions then apply that information QUICKLY. Offensive players other than the O line and QB have a pretty damned simple job. It's why you can play a freshman RBs and WRs so early and not so much a defensive player. I will note that our O line even though pretty experienced struggled early with assignments. You miss a blocking assignment and it's a few yards lost. You miss a run or pass assignment and it's potentially 6 points. BOTH our offense and defense are still making mistakes and arguably as I think it was Zatechka said the other day, every single one of our top 4 or 5 players are on offense. We've got a difference maker at QB, WR and RB. Who is our difference maker on D? Nobody.This is why I brought in the point of our offense being well on its way. As I'm sure you're aware, defenses are generally ahead of offenses when implementing new systems, just because of the vast amount of plays and information to digest on offense vs defense.
This is why I'm wondering why we have players on defense in nowhereland, out of position far too often, vs the offense clicking. Or...is our offense in reality not clicking yet, and Frost is disappointed that we aren't averaging 750 yards and 65 points a game.
Hopefully I'm making sense here. Our new systems seem contrary to everything we've come to expect about implementing new systems.
Talent, schmalent. Whatever talent we do have on the defensive side of the roster has not been properly developed and has also suffered from multiple defensive coaches, both DC and position.
Some examples:
Young (41 career starts) - has started for the better part of the time since he was a freshman. Given that tenure, one would expect better play, but that didn't happen. Rivals 5.7, but listed as a RB. Maybe LB was never his natural position.
Freedom (39 starts) - Rivals 5.6, listed as a TE prospect by Rivals. Again, maybe development as a DE wasn't the proper trajectory.
Davis twins (Carlos 23 starts) - Khalil has upped his game this year, probably our best two options at DE in terms of size. Would be serviceable in a rotation for a better defensive squad.
Gifford (17 starts) - great team guy, plays hard, but probably not starting on a better defense
Lamar (22 starts) - has underperformed his Rivals rating, but playing better as of late and maybe has a breakout Senior season in Year 2 of Chin's D.
A. Williams (31 starts) - 5.6 per Rivals, has played quite a bit over the years, would expect better play given the amount of starts.
This defense would be playing much better than it if the kids were operating in year 4 of a Mark Banker defense, which could not be a possible reality. Instead they did a hard restart for one year in a 3-4 D that required much different athletes and are in the first year of a 3-4 that is of a different style of play.
Looking at the scholarship distribution chart, it would seem that the defense will get much younger next year. For example, the boxes for ILB are empty for freshman and RS freshman. Better hope the four NU has now stay healthy.
Frost got lucky with the offense. His QB pick turned out to be a star player pretty much right out of the box. He has a couple of all-conference level WRs. Zig surprised and Mo has provided good play as a true frosh. The Oline is finally playing at the level they should. Chin has a much harder job. Next year he needs the Davis twins to have a jump in performance on par with that of Zig and to have a young guy like Daniels seize the middle. There is enough talent in the back 8 to have a better functioning D if the Dline has better play.
Some examples:
Young (41 career starts) - has started for the better part of the time since he was a freshman. Given that tenure, one would expect better play, but that didn't happen. Rivals 5.7, but listed as a RB. Maybe LB was never his natural position.
Freedom (39 starts) - Rivals 5.6, listed as a TE prospect by Rivals. Again, maybe development as a DE wasn't the proper trajectory.
Davis twins (Carlos 23 starts) - Khalil has upped his game this year, probably our best two options at DE in terms of size. Would be serviceable in a rotation for a better defensive squad.
Gifford (17 starts) - great team guy, plays hard, but probably not starting on a better defense
Lamar (22 starts) - has underperformed his Rivals rating, but playing better as of late and maybe has a breakout Senior season in Year 2 of Chin's D.
A. Williams (31 starts) - 5.6 per Rivals, has played quite a bit over the years, would expect better play given the amount of starts.
This defense would be playing much better than it if the kids were operating in year 4 of a Mark Banker defense, which could not be a possible reality. Instead they did a hard restart for one year in a 3-4 D that required much different athletes and are in the first year of a 3-4 that is of a different style of play.
Looking at the scholarship distribution chart, it would seem that the defense will get much younger next year. For example, the boxes for ILB are empty for freshman and RS freshman. Better hope the four NU has now stay healthy.
Frost got lucky with the offense. His QB pick turned out to be a star player pretty much right out of the box. He has a couple of all-conference level WRs. Zig surprised and Mo has provided good play as a true frosh. The Oline is finally playing at the level they should. Chin has a much harder job. Next year he needs the Davis twins to have a jump in performance on par with that of Zig and to have a young guy like Daniels seize the middle. There is enough talent in the back 8 to have a better functioning D if the Dline has better play.
Yep. If NU had the equivalent of a Stan and/or JD on the Dline and a true frosh equivalent of AMart at OLB things might be different on Defense. Instead NU has serviceable players like the Davis twins and guys like Freedom and Young who never quite developed into the players needed at those positions.
You forgot singer and drummer too...that makes some good dough for practicing once a month at most. You can't play efficient bass lines and fills and sing at the same time without being decent on the bass. It's more difficult to play bass and sing than playing drums and singing, IMO.
I know from previous exchanges with you that you don't remember things too well, so it's no surprise that you would suggest that I said "clean house," which I've never remotely suggested. Are you sure you're not having a stimulating conversation with the person that resides under your hat?
I'm not deferring from anything. I just didn't think your post's content warranted a serious response.
How mature of you.... run away little girl.... run away...
This is why I brought in the point of our offense being well on its way. As I'm sure you're aware, defenses are generally ahead of offenses when implementing new systems, just because of the vast amount of plays and information to digest on offense vs defense.
This is why I'm wondering why we have players on defense in nowhereland, out of position far too often, vs the offense clicking. Or...is our offense in reality not clicking yet, and Frost is disappointed that we aren't averaging 750 yards and 65 points a game.
Hopefully I'm making sense here. Our new systems seem contrary to everything we've come to expect about implementing new systems.
The offense has been amazing, no doubt. Frost inherited some ballers on that side of the ball, spielman, Morgan, and ozigbo having amazing years. It doesn't hurt that Frost hit the jackpot with Martinez. I wonder what this year would look like if they couldn't land him late in the recruiting cycle. We could be having similar threads as this about our offense, who knows. I'm not sure if we had anyone that we saw in the same light as a Morgan or Spielman on defense. I think we're maybe starting to see mo Barry that way, but im not sure we really knew what we had in him until this year started. Maybe typically defenses see success before offenses, but have we seen anything in the past to suggest we were a good coach away from have a decent defense? I get what you're saying about the star ratings out of highschool, but there really isn't a good way to objectively judge talent after high school. There's just too many variables. We can all speculate at this point, but as you've said, we just have to wait and see for now as Chins builds this up or doesn't.
It feels like our D is younger in its evolution. Not only young players chronologically in the 2 deep, but young in system also. Development will come over time. Size, speed, fit, trust, depth as well. The premise of the question is flawed as it can’t account for all the variables. “Talent” is more complex than stars. Warren Sapp was one of the greatest DT of all time. If you took a snapshot of his career and measured him based off the 4th quarter 1995 orange bowl he got his butt whipped. We are still in that snapshot frame to evaluate Chin’s D.
Actually the number of underclassmen is greater on the offensive side of the depth chart. The offense inherited two high flying WRs plus a kid like Warner who can catch and does the little things right. Plus hitting the jackpot with AMart and Mo, having Zig really up his game plus an Oline with 94 career starts (110 if you count Conrad) that has gotten its act together in the back half of the season. The defense features emerging guys like Mo Barry, Jojo and Bootle, but the most experienced of the group based on number of starts (111 for the three, exceeding the number for the Oline veterans) are Young, Freedom and Williams. Let's say those guys had upped their game at the level of Ziggy. I'd say that's at least the difference between being bowl eligible and not.
Rivals/247 rankings are great and indicate potential to contribute. But once the kids get to their destination program, they either match, exceed or underperform their rankings. Sadly, NU has had a lot of the latter.
Bo's 2008 defense got better as the season went along. Chinander's defense has shown no progress at all.
I realize that you were born with excess fluid on your brain, but you did post this just a few posts prior:
Go ahead and continue with the spin.
LOL
I typed as slowly as I could, but you're a cautionary tale as to why siblings shouldn't procreate. Let me slow it down a bit, as you seem to have a problem with singular and plural.
"Because they're (the players) going to admit they (the players) suck? Oh, ok."
True. But if the existing talent were as good as you insist, he wouldn't be getting all of the snaps he still is.
Yeah, Frost NEVER said that he didn't want a makeup game on Dec.1 as he was expecting to be in Indy, even though the team had already lost a couple games and had no realistic shot to get there.
Yes. It's due to talent, due to coaching, due to revolving coaches, to poor S&C, due to lack of culture, etc.
And yet again, you ignore that Davison, Moos, and a number of former players state that they need more talent. Need more quality depth. Need more "dawgs."
Unsurprisingly, you fail to understand the fact (which many former players [as heard on S&B] have alluded to) that this staff can't do what they want with the guys they have, so they've had to tweak what they do even though it's not what the defense is supposed to be.
You also seemed to gloss over the fact that there are only a couple of guys on this defense that will receive all league recognition or get a shot at the NFL.
The talent is not there. The staff wants to rotate guys like NHL line shifts. But about the only place where they have the bodies (not necessarily quality) to do so are at DL and safety. ILB, CB, OLB.....nothing behind the starters, and the starters are hit and miss.
You've got guys like Young who has never been very good, but there is no one behind him better. Jackson was horrible up until a few games ago.
Certain teams exceed their recruiting rankings, others never live up to the hype of their rankings. That is why it's pure idiocy to use recruiting rankings in an attempt to discredit a coaching staff that has been on campus for less than a year and has 10 games under their belts.
Listen and learn:
Good Lord almighty, you spent a lot of time saying absolutely nothing in this line of drivel. Impressive.
I will say, I realize you're apparently not bright enough to get, but 11 months and 10 games isn't enough time to correct S&C that has been subpar to terrible for years, to correct years of coaching turnover turmoil, and to implement a defense with players that are not a fit for your scheme.
I'll agree with you on that.
Which is why a tear down and rebuild of the program was necessary, and has been pointed out numerous times, but, for whatever reason hasn't sunk into your cro magnon melon.
Now you're starting to get it. Keep learning from me, kid, there's hope for you yet.
I'm not sold on him myself, but maybe we should give Chin another few years before we start all the whining and crying. Frost will.
Most of us knew that the defense for the most part hasn't been good for years and that this would be "year zero." No surprise at all.
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Disagree.
We held Ohio State, making them punt multiple times, to their lowest score against us this decade. We were within a score of the victory.
We have gotten numerous TOs the last 3 or 4 games as well.
Just because we didn’t play as well against Illinois doesn’t mean we haven’t shown any progress at all.
Seriously, take the blinders off. Your desire to see Chin fired is affecting your ability to think objectively. Totally serious here, if you truly believe this defense hasn’t made any progress at all.
It hasn't? Interesting. Seems like we have forced 14 TO's....
Because they've had sub par coaching the entire time they've been here. If you take a guy with the same talent level coming out of high school and he goes to a program with good coaching, he's going to develop a lot more and be better than a guy who hasn't developed much and had poor coaching his entire college career. The first player is going to be the guy who gets drafted even though they had the exact same talent level coming out of high school.
And Chins continues to let guys like Young play. Either way, he's responsible.
A lot of our guys have had problems with tackling, not just Young. A lot of UCF's guys had problems with tackling too. I don't care if you're a 2 star or a 5 star. You should know how to wrap up and tackle. When our whole team has problems with fundamentals like tackling, that shows me that it's a coaching issue, not an issue eith talent.
What part of "this staff has been here for 11 months and 10 games" don't you get?
He's literally the only player at that position that is game ready. That's how bad the talent level is.
I agree that tackling is an issue. But it's been an issue with Nebraska's defense for a long, long, time. Going all the way back to the Solich era.
Better get used to this style, cuz it's not going anywhere. I suggest you start listening about the 10 minute mark, a former NC player/current coach will educate some of y'all about what's going on.
Some of y'all can say "Recruiting rankings say ______ so we should be ______" but that's a foolish, ignorant stance to take.
Edit: Listen to this too, more confirmation that the defensive players we have aren't what we need:
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We sure like making excuses don't we? We have several multiple year starters on defense. There's a ton of experience on this defense, so it's laughable to blame youth. I guess that's why you see a lot of blaming the talent going around because many of the upperclassmen have not improved since they got here. Anything to take away from the real culprit which is our coaching has been piss poor for several years on the defensive side. If you want to make an excuse that it's the first year under Chinander, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that our defensive coaching has been poor this year.
