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OT: The Kentucky Derby

I'm going to reply to my own post here because it lays out the strengths and vulnerabilities of two horses, Fierceness and Sierra Leone. It explains how it fits into each of their profiles, how it could and DID affect each horses performance. His analysis of Fierceness was exactly on the button, and Sierra Leone performed almost exactly as his personality suggested it would. Contrary to those who felt I was wasting board members time, this is something that should be taken into account in this race every year. The mere chaos of the race demands you know how each horse could reasonably expect to react.

Now, as far as why the Performance Numbers I choose to use are important, these are the horses that had a number good enough to compete for the win. Not all performed to their previous bests, but overall, three did, and 3 didn't, and the other 14 horses lacked any number that made them serious contenders.
You can look at my post that showed their 2 year old top, and the last 2 prep races they ran. Those numbers are:

Mystik Dan 0,3.
Sierra Leone 4,1.
Forever Young 1,1.
Fierceness 4,-3
Just Steel 7,1
Just A Touch 2,2

In the last 10 runnings of the Derby, the race yesterday would be right in the middle at each fraction and final time. Meaning the race wasn't run fast enough for any pace meltdown, so the horses that had the type of Performance Figure to run well, for the most part did run well.

Since Fierceness showed he was likely to stop, the next best numbers were, in order, Mystik Dan, Sierra Leone and Forever Young, and you could have flip flopped Sierra Leone and Forever Young.

Fierceness was hooked and stopped, Just A Touch's lack of seasoning was not on par with his Daddys', and Just Steel had no business being on the front end.

Once I finish responding to any posts directed to me, I will put this thread to bed. Thanks to all who gave it their best shot.
I'll reply to my own post again, now that I have the final Performance Figures from the Kentucky Derby. It was a very average Derby, nothing special.

Only 1 horse ran a new TOP and that was Catching Freedom who ran 5th with a PF of 3.
His pattern now is 9-9//7-5-4-3. A horse that's still developing and improving.

There were 4 horses that PAIRED: Sierra Leone, Forever Young, T O Password and Resilience.

There were 4 horses that ran OFF: Stronghold, Honor Marie, Endlessly and the winner Mystik Dan who received a 3 from his previous race. This 3 was received because of the ground saving trip, the horse ran no better than before.

There were 11 horses that X'd, some had poor X's, others totally bombed.

Capiche, as far as Mindframe, he ran a 4 which is OFF. Although his debut was visually impressive, it wasnt that good of a race and his 2nd out of his career, the top 6 finishers in the Derby would have beaten him. IMO, his next race will begin to show if he is the real deal because he might face some real racehorses for the first time in his career.

As I posted prior to the Derby, no horse has won from Post # 2 (Sierra Leone) since 1999, No horse has EVER won from Post 17 (Fierceness), and top jockeys Geroux, Gafflione and Irad Ortiz are now 0-19 to move their horse up in the Derby. History matters until it doesn't.
 
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100 Beyer for Mystic Dan

This appears to be an average group of 3 year olds even with Fierceness' 2 huge Beyer numbers. That's not to say some horses couldn't develop later in the year.

Looking at the Derby splits, the last 4F was run in 52 seconds, the last quarter a little under 26 seconds.

Brian Hernandez said he watched Calvin Borel win many races with rail-riding trips and knew a similar ride could prove the difference, The fact that Dornoch didn't break well from post 1 gave Hernandez the opportunity to take the rail position behind Track Phantom.

It'll be interesting to see how many Derby horses go to the Preakness. I would think Sierra Leone will skip the Preakness and wait for the Belmont at Saratoga. I assume Muth will be the morning line favorite at Pimlico
The field has now been set for this Saturday's Preakness Stakes:

**THIS IS NOW EDITED ON THURSDAY MORNING, MAY 16TH TO INCLUDE THE PERFORMANCE NUMBERS OF THE ENTIRE FIELD. I HAVEN'T UPDATED THE MORNING LINE ODDS.** T=TOP, P=PAIR, O=OFF, X=X
In Parenthesis, the percentages of each horse to run a new TOP, PAIR, Run OFF, or Run an X:

1. Mugatu, Joe Bravo 20/1..... 11-13-14//11-16-11-11-7.....PPT (45-26-18-11)
2. Uncle Heavy, Irad Ortiz 20/1..... 5-13-5//4-8.....PPO (25-42-20-13)
3. Catching Freedom, Prat 6/1 .....9-9//7-5-4-3.....TPT (44-26-20-9)
4. Muth, J. Hernandex 8/5 SCRATCHED
5. Mystik Dan, BJ Hernandez 5/2..... 9-6-14//9-0-3-3.....TOO (10-33-32-25)
6. Seize The Grey, J. Torres 15/1..... 8-13-8-14//6-7-6-4.....PPT (45-26-18-11)
7. Just Steel, J. Rosario 15/1..... 15-9-2//8-2-7-1-18.....XTX (7-28-24-41)
8. Tuscan Gold, Gafflione 8/1..... 10//5-4.....TTP (18-36-30-17)
9. Imagination, Dettori 6/1..... 8-8//8-5-5-5.....TPP (24-45-20-11)
(These percentages in the parenthesis are derived from between 150 and 550 starts by 3 year olds around the country in the last 2 years that had that exact Pattern, for example, Mugata...525 horses that were 3 years old ran a new TOP 45% of the time, 26% of the time they PAIRED these best number, 18% of the time they ran OFF, and 11% of the time they X'd.)

The two horses most likely to run a new TOP are Seize the Grey and Catching Freedom. Having said that, they arrived at the New Top in different fashions. Seize The Grey won a flat 1 MILE race to reach a new TOP of 4, whereas, Catching Freedom reached a new TOP of 3 going the Preakness distance of 1 1/4 mile. So, of the two, the one most likely to run a new top is Catching Freedom.

As Pelini said, and I think most horse players would agree, this is a poor race to wager on. By pure PF numbers alone, there appear to be 6 horses that could win this race. Of those 6, there are only 3 horses worth betting on.
When Muth scratched, it changed the pace scenario, making the outcome more wide open.

Among the unknowns is how Catching Freedom, Mystik Dan and Just Steel perform coming off of just 14 days rest. The past 10 Derby Winners, as I illustrated near the bottom of this post, indicated new TOPS are rare this race for Derby Winners, less than 50% will run a new TOP or PAIR, and over 50% will run OFF or X.

The likely scenario will be Imagination and Seize The Grey on the front end, followed by Just Steel and Tuscan Gold, the next flight will be Mystik Dan and Uncle Henry followed by Mugata and the closer would be Catching Freedom. The real running, as always, will be in the last 1/4-1/2 mile of the race.

The faster the pace the more it helps Mystik Dan and Catching Freedom, the slower the pace the more it helps Imagination. "On paper" the two fastest horses in this race are Mystik Dan and Just Steel.

The horse most likely to run a new TOP is Catching Freedom. Unless something strange happens, i.e. a horse loves or hates the surfact, Mugata, Uncle Heavy are not quite good enough to win, Tuscan Gold and Imagination will need things to go right to win.

In the event the 3 Derby horses are leg weary from running back so soon, the race becomes wide open. This concludes the overview on this 8 horse field.** End of the edited portion from Thursday morning.

All the below information I posted earlier in this thread:
Hopefully, by tomorrow or Wednesday I will post their current patterns for those who are interested. For those unfamiliar with the Preakness, it is a 1 3/16th mile race, so 1/16th of a mile, or 110 yards shorter in distance than the Kentucky Derby. There is a 60% chance of rain in the forecast for Baltimore Saturday.

In the last 10 years, 8 of the 10 horses who WON the Kentucky Derby ran back in the Preakness two weeks later. The two which didn't run were Rich Strike and Maximum Security.

Below are Kentucky Derby Performance Figures each winner ran, and his Performance figure in the Preakness:

2023 Mage ran 0 in the Derby, and 3 in the Preakness. So, he went backwards 3 points; (OFF)
2022 Rich Strike ran 1 in the Derby and did not run in the Preakness;
2021 Medina Spirit ran 1 in Derby and 3 in Preakness. Went backwards 3 pts. (Was DQ'd in Derby); (OFF)
2020 Does not count since the Kentucky Derby was run in September due to the plandemic;
2019 Maximum Security ran 1 in the Deby and did not run in the Preakness;
2018 Justify ran -1 in the Derby and -0 in the Preakness. Went backward 1 point; (PAIR)
2017 Always Dreaming ran -1 in Derby and ran 8 in the Preakness. Went backward 9 points; (X)
2016 Nyquist ran 0 in Derby and 0 in Preakness. Ran the same Performance Figure in each race; (PAIR)
2015 American Pharoah ran -3 in the Derby and -0 in the Preakness. Went backwards 3 points; (OFF)
2014 California Chrome ran 0 in the Derby and -2 in the Preakness. Improved 2 points; (TOP)
2013 Orb ran -2 in the Derby and 4 in the Preakness. Went backwards 6 points. (X)

So, 8 Kentucky Derby winners ran in the Preakness with 1 horse (California Chrome) running a new TOP;
2 horses (Justify and Nyquist) PAIRED
3 horses (Mage, Medina Spirit, American Pharoah) ran OFF
2 horses (Always Dreaming and Orb) X'd.
 
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F* these people!

I post every pick prior to kickoff

They hate you cuz they ain’t you, Easy!
I know you post your selections before the kickoff, and I think the room appreciates it. When I was doing a weekly parlay for the room, I always included your best bet along with Scarletred and Tuco.

The Preakness, due to the much smaller field has far less possibilities of a nice score than the Derby. Unlike the Derby which typically has 6-8 real win contenders, this field probably has 3-4 at the most. The only horse in this field that didn't run in the Derby that would have been a threat to win is Muth, and he was ineligible due to Baffert being banned from the Kentucky Derby. So Baffert is bringing 2 fresh horses (Muth and Imagination) into this race to face 3 Derby horses (Mystik Dan, Catching Freedom, Just Steel) who just ran
1 1/4 mile 2 weeks ago.

The Derby takes many hours to handicap, and this race takes about an hour. I'm sure I will make some minor wagers on the race since I'm going to watch. Without having seen the PF numbers of the entire field the likelihood of a large mutuel is pretty thin.

Since I wagered $ 160.00 in the Kentucky Derby to net $ 3,114.00, I will probably only wager 50.00 or so, and unless something odd happens would not expect to make more than 300.00 or 400.00. In my world, if I'm not wagering enough to win at least 500.00 in a race, its nothing more than an interest bet.
 
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Any top; 20 jockey in the US wins this race aboard Forever Young. I said I loved the horse, and the jockey was, and did, do enough bouncing around in the saddle to get this horse beat. Looks like, can't confirm, Gafflione on the #2 horse actually put his hands on the # 11 jockey in the stretch. In all fairness, Sierra Leone should have come down.
I was correct. Gafflione was just fined $ 2,500.00 for the antics he pulled in deep stretch against the jockey on Forever Young. Without the interference, Forever Young was the winner.
 
Alright screw it…I know I’m gonna put a couple $$ on this race even though it sucks.

My ideas from the Derby horses(I’m generally an exacta and win/place guy):

1. Classic Freedom will not take $1 of my money. That was the perfect suck-up of all suck-ups ever in the Derby. He really did almost no running. Plus, Cox hates running horses back this soon.

2. Mystic Dan honestly isn’t that far off from Classic Freedom but he’s got a little bit of tactical speed. If he wins, I’ll break even at best.

3. Just Steel…they switched to Rosario for a reason. He’ll take him back to DFL and try to clunk him up for 3rd.
 
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Alright screw it…I know I’m gonna put a couple $$ on this race even though it sucks.

My ideas from the Derby horses(I’m generally an exacta and win/place guy):

1. Classic Freedom will not take $1 of my money. That was the perfect suck-up of all suck-ups ever in the Derby. He really did almost no running. Plus, Cox hates running horses back this soon.

2. Mystic Dan honestly isn’t that far off from Classic Freedom but he’s got a little bit of tactical speed. If he wins, I’ll break even at best.

3. Just Steel…they switched to Rosario for a reason. He’ll take him back to DFL and try to clunk him up for 3rd.
I love your first sentence, been there and done that. lol
 
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Alright screw it…I know I’m gonna put a couple $$ on this race even though it sucks.

My ideas from the Derby horses(I’m generally an exacta and win/place guy):

1. Classic Freedom will not take $1 of my money. That was the perfect suck-up of all suck-ups ever in the Derby. He really did almost no running. Plus, Cox hates running horses back this soon.

2. Mystic Dan honestly isn’t that far off from Classic Freedom but he’s got a little bit of tactical speed. If he wins, I’ll break even at best.

3. Just Steel…they switched to Rosario for a reason. He’ll take him back to DFL and try to clunk him up for 3rd.
Muth now confirmed as scratched after spiking a fever. Makes the race more interesting, as Muth was the horse to beat.
 
Alright screw it…I know I’m gonna put a couple $$ on this race even though it sucks.

My ideas from the Derby horses(I’m generally an exacta and win/place guy):

1. Classic Freedom will not take $1 of my money. That was the perfect suck-up of all suck-ups ever in the Derby. He really did almost no running. Plus, Cox hates running horses back this soon.

2. Mystic Dan honestly isn’t that far off from Classic Freedom but he’s got a little bit of tactical speed. If he wins, I’ll break even at best.

3. Just Steel…they switched to Rosario for a reason. He’ll take him back to DFL and try to clunk him up for 3rd.
Put a 10$ show bet on a horse just so you have one to cheer for😉
 
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